What if Rangers prepared spells like Paladins? Is it too good?

[Mastikator]

I've often wondered why the ranger has spells known and the paladin just prepares spells from their list. So what if Rangers just did the same, they prepare a number of spells equal to half their ranger level + wisdom modifier. When they finish a long rest they can change prepared spells using the 1 minute per spell level rules.

Would it be broken? Would it fix rangers?

[Arkhios]

I've often wondered why the ranger has spells known and the paladin just prepares spells from their list. So what if Rangers just did the same, they prepare a number of spells equal to half their ranger level + wisdom modifier. When they finish a long rest they can change prepared spells using the 1 minute per spell level rules.

Would it be broken? Would it fix rangers?

Would it be broken? I don't think so. In fact, I'd be all game for making paladins cast spells like rangers and vice versa

Paladins are a bit too good so it would be a welcome change IMHO. (Don't get me wrong, Paladin is my favorite class in 5e, and I would still play one, even if they didn't prepare their spells).

[Chronos]

It'd certainly be an improvement, but when I was playing a ranger, I didn't feel like the number of spells known was a significant limitation. Were there times when I would have liked having some other spell? Sure... but then again, if that never happened at all, that to me would be an indicator of poor game design. But for the most part, I had the spells I needed.

[Gtdead]

I agree with Chronos. While it would be a welcomed change and Ranger has a lot of good spells, it's easy to plan an effective character around the few you like the most, and this is also standard practice with Paladin too. A lot of Paladin players don't care about the expanded spell selection and focus on Bless a lot.

So yea, I don't think it's too good. It's nice but it won't solve any "problems". Frankly I don't think that T1/T2 Rangers have any problems power wise and T3 is debatable. T4 is ridiculous though, he gains 2 non features.

[strangebloke]

Would it be broken? I don't think so. In fact, I'd be all game for making paladins cast spells like rangers and vice versa

Paladins are a bit too good so it would be a welcome change IMHO. (Don't get me wrong, Paladin is my favorite class in 5e, and I would still play one, even if they didn't prepare their spells).

yup.

If you look at the lists, rangers if anything have a greater concentration of situational spells that they'd like to swap in and out each day. Plus, being a paladin/cleric style caster fits more with their thematic role as the canny survivor who's ready for everything.

[diplomancer]

I think both should be spells known, but if one of them should be spells prepared, the Ranger definitely makes more sense. I believe Paladin's prepared spells are a relic from past editions where their connection with a deity was stronger. As it is, he's the only Cha caster with prepared spells, which doesn't make sense at all.

As for the Ranger, I think the spells are better fluffed as "tricks", which he picked up during the couse of his adventures, and so "spells known" works better than "spells prepared". But if you make a greater connection between Ranger and Nature (making him more explicitly the "martial druid" so to speak) then spells prepared is reasonable.

Here I'm all talking about class fluff. Power-wise, it's a reasonable buff to rangers, but not broken at all (as spells known would be a reasonable nerf to Paladins, but not one that would spoil the class).

[Quietus]

I think both should be spells known, but if one of them should be spells prepared, the Ranger definitely makes more sense. I believe Paladin's prepared spells are a relic from past editions where their connection with a deity was stronger. As it is, he's the only Cha caster with prepared spells, which doesn't make sense at all.

As for the Ranger, I think the spells are better fluffed as "tricks", which he picked up during the couse of his adventures, and so "spells known" works better than "spells prepared". But if you make a greater connection between Ranger and Nature (making him more explicitly the "martial druid" so to speak) then spells prepared is reasonable.

Here I'm all talking about class fluff. Power-wise, it's a reasonable buff to rangers, but not broken at all (as spells known would be a reasonable nerf to Paladins, but not one that would spoil the class).

Alternatively, those "tricks" can just be "The things I'm prepared to do today". Maybe you have a snare ready to go (entangle); maybe you had to re-use that rope into something else, but luckily you just found the right flowers to make a pocket full of marker paint (Hunter's Mark). You don't always have the right tools to do everything, but knowing what situation you're going into, you can make those tools into *something*.

If it's not clear, I'm in favor of making rangers into prepared casters. I don't think anything will break, and it'll make their half-caster status feel less restricted. Then again, I say this from the perspective of a beastmaster; a gloomstalker might think their spells known are fine.

[diplomancer]

Alternatively, those "tricks" can just be "The things I'm prepared to do today". Maybe you have a snare ready to go (entangle); maybe you had to re-use that rope into something else, but luckily you just found the right flowers to make a pocket full of marker paint (Hunter's Mark). You don't always have the right tools to do everything, but knowing what situation you're going into, you can make those tools into *something*.

If it's not clear, I'm in favor of making rangers into prepared casters. I don't think anything will break, and it'll make their half-caster status feel less restricted. Then again, I say this from the perspective of a beastmaster; a gloomstalker might think their spells known are fine.

Funnily enough, the two examples you've picked up don't have material components. I don't think spells prepared "work", fluff-wise, if they're not either memorized through sheer intelligence (wizard) or granted by an outside power (clerics and druids). Which is why, IF I wanted Rangers to have prepared spells, I'd lean more on their druidic connection. It even makes sense, as they're Wis-casters too.

[stoutstien]

Really depends on if one is using the optional rules in Tasha's or not. I think the primal awareness changes went a long way to hot patch the constricting feeling the ranger has with spells known.

[Renbot]

I've often wondered why the ranger has spells known and the paladin just prepares spells from their list. So what if Rangers just did the same, they prepare a number of spells equal to half their ranger level + wisdom modifier. When they finish a long rest they can change prepared spells using the 1 minute per spell level rules.

Would it be broken? Would it fix rangers?

Definitely not broken. And also not overpowered which is nice sweet spot. I have been doing this in my games since the start of 5e and it has really helped the ranger find its niche. Since the ranger has more utility spells than combat spells, allowing this versatility has really make them feel more...rangerish. It allows them to be good at all of the things we want rangers to be good at, just not all the time or all at once.

[jas61292]

Personally, I've always thought they got it backwards for Rangers and Paladins.

Rangers are kinda like Druids and are about adapting to the natural environment and being prepared. They should be prepared casters.

Paladins magic is internal and comes from their strong conviction. If that's close to any other class, it's Sorcerer, whose magic is also completely internal. The should be spells known.

Not only would swapping these two make more sense, but it would probably be better for balance is both cases.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I already run this way for Rangers to reflect their versatility and extensive lore about things. Suddenly got in a dungeon full of Fhungi and similar, just rest and prepare Protection from Poison or Lesser Restoration instead of Goodberry for now.

There are good spells usually not chosen in favor of the most all-around useful, so I think it’s a really good improvement.

[Kane0]

Ive been doing prepared spell rangers for about 18 months now and the times it has made a noticeable impact can probably be counted on one hand, probably because Tashas lets them do the same thing already only one at a time.

Its fine, go for it. It will feel more flexible for the player.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Preparing spells might actually be worse for a Ranger.
The Ranger Class spell list has a number of spells that have effects that don't require a Saving Throw.

A Ranger PC doesn't have to to have an *impressive* Wisdom score, to use their half caster Magic. A single class Ranger, (depending on the subclass), could even elect to dump-stat Wisdom, since the RAW Ranger Learns their spells.

In the lower Tiers of play, a Paladin's CHA modifier is more impactful in terms of the amount of spells the PC can Prepare, when compared to half of one's Class level.

[Quietus]

Preparing spells might actually be worse for a Ranger.
The Ranger Class spell list has a number of spells that have effects that don't require a Saving Throw.

A Ranger PC doesn't have to to have an *impressive* Wisdom score, to use their half caster Magic. A single class Ranger, (depending on the subclass), could even elect to dump-stat Wisdom, since the RAW Ranger Learns their spells.

In the lower Tiers of play, a Paladin's CHA modifier is more impactful in terms of the amount of spells the PC can Prepare, when compared to half of one's Class level.

Wisdom is a good stat to have, in general. Buying up a 12-14 isn't completely unreasonable. And there a spells on the ranger's spell list (locate object/creature comes to mind) that I absolutely, 100% would want to have on some days, and would be completely irrelevant on others. They're the type of spells I'd never spend a spell known on, but would definitely make room certain days for spells prepared.

[Thunderous Mojo]

They're the type of spells I'd never spend a spell known on, but would definitely make room certain days for spells prepared.

Many of the Ranger varietals have features that boost their damage or attacks, or grant some type of spell like effect, resulting in a Ranger that can be effective in combat, while primarily using utility or buff spells.

The issue with Locate Object and Preparation casters is one has to know in advance that one is going on a scavenger hunt. Sometimes, a party is unexpectedly dropped into a scavenger hunt, in which case having Locate Object as a known spell is useful.

[Mastikator]

Preparing spells might actually be worse for a Ranger.
The Ranger Class spell list has a number of spells that have effects that don't require a Saving Throw.

A Ranger PC doesn't have to to have an *impressive* Wisdom score, to use their half caster Magic. A single class Ranger, (depending on the subclass), could even elect to dump-stat Wisdom, since the RAW Ranger Learns their spells.

In the lower Tiers of play, a Paladin's CHA modifier is more impactful in terms of the amount of spells the PC can Prepare, when compared to half of one's Class level.

Yeah but having fewer spells prepared than base spells known is only a problem if you need every single spell known and don't need any spells unprepared. A 10th level wisdom dumped ranger would have 6 spells known, a 10th level ranger that prepares only need 12 wisdom to break even. Rangers only learn 1 spell every 2 levels, this is the same rate as spells prepared. Except spells prepared lets you discard spells you don't need for spells you do need every long rest. Instead of 1 every level.

I think the flexibility is worth so much more than having 1 extra spell known (and only on a wisdom dumped ranger). The issue with "one has to know one is going on a scavenger hunt" only exists if ZERO long rests are permitted during the rest and there was no foreshadowing from the DM. Just paying attention to what's going on in the campaign can give a lot of clues for what spells are needed in the future. Anyone who has played both sorcerer and wizard knows this.

[Quietus]

Many of the Ranger varietals have features that boost their damage or attacks, or grant some type of spell like effect, resulting in a Ranger that can be effective in combat, while primarily using utility or buff spells.

The issue with Locate Object and Preparation casters is one has to know in advance that one is going on a scavenger hunt. Sometimes, a party is unexpectedly dropped into a scavenger hunt, in which case having Locate Object as a known spell is useful.

I have an 8th level beastmaster, they have 5 spells known. There is absolutely no way that I am going to have room for Locate Object, when there are other spells on my list that are damn near must-haves. I'm also on the cusp of third level spells, and will get +1 known - if I want to have more than that, I have to peel even more off the top of my level 1 and 2 spells.

A ranger not focused on spellcasting is probably fine with just grabbing the few spells that are central to their concept. One that wants to lean into that spellcasting is extremely hobbled by the spells known mechanic.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The issue with "one has to know one is going on a scavenger hunt" only exists if ZERO long rests are permitted during the rest and there was no foreshadowing from the DM. Just paying attention to what's going on in the campaign can give a lot of clues for what spells are needed in the future. Anyone who has played both sorcerer and wizard knows this.

Which can happen. One day the party was in the Neverwinter Woods, tracking Werewolves, the next day the Party is in Barovia, and Strahd and company disrupt their Rests until finally the Party reaches a safe town.

DMs, rarely, foreshadow someone in the party being pickpocketed for example. My general spell loadout as a cleric is not going to include Locate Object. (Though Locate Object is a great spell scroll to find.)

I have an 8th level beastmaster, they have 5 spells known. There is absolutely no way that I am going to have room for Locate Object, when there are other spells on my list that are damn near must-haves.

Which is a fair assessment to make for one's self.

In my view, spell casting Rangers are hobbled less by their spells known limitation, and more by their limited spell slots, and being a half caster.

Ranger's lack any sort of spell slot regeneration outside of Long Rests, and lack Ritual Magic. Even if you gave a Ranger 22 spells known,(like a Bard),one would wind up with a huge number of spells, that one would never cast, due to lack of magic reserves.

[KorvinStarmast]

Would it be broken? Would it fix rangers?

No, it would not be broken.
It would slightly improve rangers; most players pick a few spells anyway and rarely change the mix. (At table experience).