Path of War Umbral Blade (Issues with Maneuvers Known)

[Feint's End]

Hello everyone. Haven't posted here in ages, but starting a new campaign soon and I found some issues with the Umbral Blade Prestige Class (One of the PRCs I'm considering joining)

The Umbral Blade gains new maneuvers known at even levels, which would be acceptable IF it was a lvl 6 entry, but due to requiring Stealth 6 as a requirement, the earliest entry is level 7. This means that you do not gain maneuvers of a new level as soon as you get access to it (odd levels) if you enter the PRC asap. To give a small example: A Stalker 6 / Umbral Blade 1 gets access to 4th level maneuvers (Initiatorlevel 7), BUT you get the first maneuver known at Umbral Blade 2 (i.e. I-lvl 8. The same as you can swap out maneuvers). This is inconsistent with other PoW Prestige Classes.

Now, the Errata does not address this directly, however, there is this example line under the Prestige Class clarifications "For example, a stalker 6/warlord 4/umbral blade 5 could add their new maneuver known to their stalker maneuvers,". This implies that the Umbral Blade should get new maneuvers at odd levels. This was however not clarified anywhere I could find.

Should I take the Errata passive mention as RaW or at least RaI? Our upcoming campaign is very RaW heavy, so I need something to explain how this (should) work to the DM (we do RaI if relevant). The Umbral Blade as written doesn't function like other PRCs in the book. Earliest entry doesn't work for the PRC. I suspect that there was a disconnect, where the PRC was either intended to be entered at lvl 6 OR (more likely due to errata) the maneuver progression was messed up.


On another note, I really dislike that DSP decided on this sort of progression system for PRCs to begin with, since it locks you into certain entry levels.

[Feint's End]

Bump

Would really like to get some other player's/dm's perspective on this. Feel free to chip in even if you aren't the most familiar with PoW (The system is mostly equivalent to 3.5's Tome of Battle for non-Pathfinder players out there).

[Powerdork]

For single-class entry with medium base attack, that BAB +4 requirement on Umbral Blade is also hefty, ensuring that entry is at level 6.
However, for multiclass entry, sorcerer 2/stalker 4, for instance, the maneuver delivery is on pace. Not that the class features do anything to support the other half of the multiclass. It's just a note.

I think nothing of meaning is lost by swapping the levels an umbral blade gains maneuvers, excepting the above.

[Arkain]

Hmm, I've taken a quick look at other prestige classes, not just from the particular book, but the subsystem as such and I'm a bit torn here, as they seem to be consistent at being a bit inconsistent

You are right, the progression seems off. Maneuvers known increase usually on level 2 of the prestige classes' progression, but several classes allow for entry at either level 6 or 8, like Landsknecht or Mage Hunter. Yet others allow entry at different points, like Phoenix Champion requiring feats and most importantly 4 BAB, which means it's the same problem for a Stalker, but no issue for a Warlord. Other classes have the problem for every entry though, not just Umbral Blade, but also Dragon Fury which requires 4 BAB and 6 skill ranks in two skills, so again level 7, same problem. In this sense, I can't agree that it's inconsistent with the other prestige classes, but it's certainly a bit odd and frustrating to a degree. Some of the classes intended for multiclass entries also may prove problematic for some builds in a similar fashion. I'm afraid this doesn't help you much, though.
As for your errata claim, note that you gain a stance at level 5, maybe there was a slight mistake here and they meant to say "new stance". Which would be lovely, errata needing errata

What you could try is either hope there won't be too much RAW silliness, since it seems a bit counterproductive to use the prestige class for your character as is. For example, enter at 6 anyway or adjust the table a bit. Or you could delay your progression by a level, multiclass into a caster class, become a Monk or a Warder for another maneuver pool, that sort of thing.

[Feint's End]

For single-class entry with medium base attack, that BAB +4 requirement on Umbral Blade is also hefty, ensuring that entry is at level 6.
However, for multiclass entry, sorcerer 2/stalker 4, for instance, the maneuver delivery is on pace. Not that the class features do anything to support the other half of the multiclass. It's just a note.

I think nothing of meaning is lost by swapping the levels an umbral blade gains maneuvers, excepting the above.

Thank you for your input. Yeah the bab 4 and it being more designed for medium bab classes (Stalker, Harbinger, Rogue Hidden Blade, etc.) most likely means it was always meant to be entered at level 7.

Issue with the multiclass is that you most likely always want to take Practiced Initiator as a trait anyways, because your Progression directly scales off Initiatorlevel as opposed to something like Spellcasters (where caster level =/= access to spells). To give an example: My brother is planning to play an Oracle/Warlord/Battle Templar next campaign. By taking 4 levels of Oracle, Practiced Initiator and Warlord right at level 5, he'll immediately have access to 3rd level maneuvers and stance.

I agree on the last part. I'm still not even sure I'll be an Umbral Blade (Currently more trending towards a Mystic with mb Animus Adept on top), but I think that's how I'd handle it. Not only for Umbral Blade, but all Prestige Classes (so their maneuver known progression is more flexible).

Hmm, I've taken a quick look at other prestige classes, not just from the particular book, but the subsystem as such and I'm a bit torn here, as they seem to be consistent at being a bit inconsistent

You are right, the progression seems off. Maneuvers known increase usually on level 2 of the prestige classes' progression, but several classes allow for entry at either level 6 or 8, like Landsknecht or Mage Hunter. Yet others allow entry at different points, like Phoenix Champion requiring feats and most importantly 4 BAB, which means it's the same problem for a Stalker, but no issue for a Warlord. Other classes have the problem for every entry though, not just Umbral Blade, but also Dragon Fury which requires 4 BAB and 6 skill ranks in two skills, so again level 7, same problem. In this sense, I can't agree that it's inconsistent with the other prestige classes, but it's certainly a bit odd and frustrating to a degree. Some of the classes intended for multiclass entries also may prove problematic for some builds in a similar fashion. I'm afraid this doesn't help you much, though.
As for your errata claim, note that you gain a stance at level 5, maybe there was a slight mistake here and they meant to say "new stance". Which would be lovely, errata needing errata

What you could try is either hope there won't be too much RAW silliness, since it seems a bit counterproductive to use the prestige class for your character as is. For example, enter at 6 anyway or adjust the table a bit. Or you could delay your progression by a level, multiclass into a caster class, become a Monk or a Warder for another maneuver pool, that sort of thing.

I agree. After posting this I realized it affects other PRCs like Dragon Fury as well. I think the easiest solution is simply adapting the progression across the board for when you actually enter. As it is right now, it's incredibly poorly thought through. I'm still not entirely sure why they decided to do it this way, as opposed to the way 3.5 did it. The cases where the new system is a nerf are quite rare (mostly earliest entry by classes like Mystic and Stalker, since they gain more maneuvers known naturally).

On the possibility that they meant Stance, I have to add that this would make the errata even funnier. Because most Disciplines don't get new Stances at the levels they described (tbh I don't think any discipline gains a new stance at that level, but I can't be entirely sure).

Thank you for the input. I will most likely simply adjust the maneuver known progression if I decide to go Umbral Blade (which by no means is guaranteed since I'm tending more towards a Mystic rn). Multiclassing would be my solution of choice in a heavy RaW game, but since we have a little bit of flexibility and also only play to level 10-12 in most campaigns I think I could work this out with our DM.