A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    It's reasonable to say that Xykon would probably beat the Order. But I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that he is "unbeatable, period".

    Serini doesn't appear to actually know anything about the Order's abilities. Her conclusion doesn't seem to arise from any assessment of them. Based on what we've seen, there's a good chance she doesn't even know that the Order has tangled with Xykon before, but it she did know that then she'd probably know they;ve beaten him once.

    She does know that they are an entire party of 7 though, and that alone is a good reason to think they might be more powerful than Dorukon or Lirian (or her) individually.

    I'd have no objection if Serini had said "having observed you and having seen what Xykon can do, I think he'd beat you nine times out of ten". That would be reasonable. But instead she's saying he's literally unbeatable, based only on the fact that he beat someone stronger than her. That is not reasonable.
    Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.

    (And while as a poker player, I appreciate quantifying the difference between "0% chance" and "10% chance," I think most people would still say "no chance" even if they meant "a slim chance." Especially in the heat of the moment here, where Serini is probably not doing EV calculations on the Order vs. Xykon-- she's just trying to convince Lien and O-Chul not to go up against Xykon because she believes that by far the most likely outcome is that they lose, and too often when they lose they jeopardize her Gate's defenses.)
    Last edited by Ruck; 2021-11-27 at 11:30 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    In #0634, Director Lee explains that V will not be allowed to duplicate any divine magic via Wish or Limited Wish.
    I'm not sure where you're going with that. That was for the duration of the soul splice, and recreating a destroyed body is not duplicating divine magic but rather a listed approved use of a wish spell.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.

    (And while as a poker player, I appreciate quantifying the difference between "0% chance" and "10% chance," I think most people would still say "no chance" even if they meant "a slim chance." Especially in the heat of the moment here, where Serini is probably not doing EV calculations on the Order vs. Xykon-- she's just trying to convince Lien and O-Chul not to go up against Xykon because she believes that by far the most likely outcome is that they lose, and too often when they lose they jeopardize her Gate's defenses.)
    I'm more inclined to put more weight on her statements now, when she's under too much pressure to construct elaborate justifications.

    The best comparison I can come up with is Tarquin, though possibly there might be others - he was a smooth talker and provided a coherent argument when everything was going well for him, but during the last fight that facade broke down and we saw what really mattered, his core motivation so to speak. I think there was a relevant post about that from the Giant?

    I won't say that her arguments are universally flawed or that she's completely talking out her ass, but I wouldn't really put much stock into her philosophy and logic. And honestly I prefer that. I mean seriously he butchered one of her old friends, went on to her and came close to doing the same, and then used her diary to move on to another of her old friends and then killed him too.

    It's like when Roy "heroic to levels that most Paladins wish they were" Greenhilt almost crumbled in the pyramid when Belkar told him the news - Vaarsuvius was MIA, and Durkon - his best friend, second-strongest party member, and the entire lynchpin of his plan for defending Girard's Gate against the Vector Legion - had been turned into a vampire thrall. And Serini didn't have anyone or anything to put her back on track like Roy did.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I'm not sure where you're going with that. That was for the duration of the soul splice, and recreating a destroyed body is not duplicating divine magic but rather a listed approved use of a wish spell.
    Hurkyl was responding to Bunsen's question about whether or not Wish existed in the setting; the IFCC stipulations aren't the point, the fact that they called the spell out by name are.
    Last edited by Gurgeh; 2021-11-28 at 12:15 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.

    (And while as a poker player, I appreciate quantifying the difference between "0% chance" and "10% chance," I think most people would still say "no chance" even if they meant "a slim chance." Especially in the heat of the moment here, where Serini is probably not doing EV calculations on the Order vs. Xykon-- she's just trying to convince Lien and O-Chul not to go up against Xykon because she believes that by far the most likely outcome is that they lose, and too often when they lose they jeopardize her Gate's defenses.)
    So you think that "Xykon is unbeatable, period!" has an element of hyperbole and she just meant to say that she thought the chance of him being beaten by the paladins/Order is minimal? Perhaps, and it's certainly much more reasonable when read that way.

    However, I still don't think she's well placed to make a judgment of the Order' chance against Xykon based only on Xykon's wins alone, and without knowing much about the Order's ability.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I won't say that her arguments are universally flawed or that she's completely talking out her ass, but I wouldn't really put much stock into her philosophy and logic. And honestly I prefer that. I mean seriously he butchered one of her old friends, went on to her and came close to doing the same, and then used her diary to move on to another of her old friends and then killed him too.
    The logic is that she doesn't want the Gate blown, and she thinks the Order and the paladins will blow the Gate before they let Xykon take it. That's still sound. The fact that part of that calculus comes from direct experience with Xykon (and knowing what he did to maybe the two most powerful people she knows) doesn't make it irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    However, I still don't think she's well placed to make a judgment of the Order' chance against Xykon based only on Xykon's wins alone, and without knowing much about the Order's ability.
    She might not be. She certainly doesn't know as much as us, the reader, know about the growth of the Order. But the thing is, she's the guardian of this Gate, and they're here now, so she has to make the best decision she can with the information she does have. And we've already seen that she knows about the blown Gates, so we can verify that that information goes into her decisions. She almost certainly doesn't know how powerful the Order have become, and she definitely doesn't know that the gods will blow the world anyway if Xykon does take the Gate.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    She might not be. She certainly doesn't know as much as us, the reader, know about the growth of the Order. But the thing is, she's the guardian of this Gate, and they're here now, so she has to make the best decision she can with the information she does have. And we've already seen that she knows about the blown Gates, so we can verify that that information goes into her decisions. She almost certainly doesn't know how powerful the Order have become, and she definitely doesn't know that the gods will blow the world anyway if Xykon does take the Gate.
    We've seen that she knows about one blown gate, and nothing indicates that she knows the Order was there. I had assumed (like most others) that she probably knew something about the others, but I'm not so sure about that anymore.

    But whether she knows about the blown gates or not, she doesn't seem to know anything about the Order in particular. Which means she had a poor basis for the assumption that they couldn't beat Xykon on which her decision to attack them was based.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Why would the 'try'? They have no reason to think that she's attacking them because she thinks they don't have important knowledge.

    They had no reason to say "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" because they had no way of knowing that Serini was attacking them because her and her friends got curb stomped. The paladins know, because Serini told them, which is why Lien made the point.

    They have no reason to say "We don't want the gate, we want Xykon", because they have know way of knowing Serini thinks they might want to destroy the gate.

    All they know about Serini is that she didn't answer when they tried to message her, and now she has attacked them. How many rounds have there been in this fight? How many since they figured out who she is? They've probably known she is alive for less than a minute. The idea that they should have guessed some pretty improbably reasoning from her, with no information at all, and then said exactly the right thing to defuse her, is a bit ridiculous.



    It's reasonable to say that Xykon would probably beat the Order. But I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that he is "unbeatable, period".

    Serini doesn't appear to actually know anything about the Order's abilities. Her conclusion doesn't seem to arise from any assessment of them. Based on what we've seen, there's a good chance she doesn't even know that the Order has tangled with Xykon before, but it she did know that then she'd probably know they;ve beaten him once.

    She does know that they are an entire party of 7 though, and that alone is a good reason to think they might be more powerful than Dorukon or Lirian (or her) individually.

    I'd have no objection if Serini had said "having observed you and having seen what Xykon can do, I think he'd beat you nine times out of ten". That would be reasonable. But instead she's saying he's literally unbeatable, based only on the fact that he beat someone stronger than her. That is not reasonable.


    I don't think you missed anything. While everyone has been careful to judge Serini's actions only on what she appears to know, it seems that same generosity is not being extended to the Order.
    So they know Serini doesn't answer when they said "listen tu us!" and now when they got the oportunity to tell her something they just say again "listen to us!"? Do you really think that's their best move? If that didn't work in the past, how will that work in the middle of a fight?
    They should try something else to say, or just don't talk at all, but to say always the same thing that they know isn't working...

    And again, they are smart, they have figured out the "secret door" they could figure out something about her motivations to attack them, I mean, they KNOW that they have destroyed 2 gates, now a gate defender is attacking them and impliying that she doesn't trust them... I think a pretty obvious conclusion for them should be that she is attacking them cause she thinks they are a danger flr the gate, which is exactly the main reason.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-11-28 at 03:41 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    So they know Serini doesn't answer when they said "listen tu us!" and now when they got the oportunity to tell her something they just say again "listen to us!"? Do you really think that's their best move? If that didn't work in the past, how will that work in the middle of a fight?
    They should try something else to say, or just don't talk at all, but to say always the same thing that they know isn't working...
    There were two panels (note panels, not strips) between them figuring out who Serini was and that she'd got their messages, and her escaping.

    In that time, V told her off for ad hominem attacks, and Hayley said there was no need to keep fighting. None of those were the same thing as their sendings. What do you think they should have said?

    And again, they are smart, they have figured out the "secret door" they could figure out something about her motivations to attack them, I mean, they KNOW that they have destroyed 2 gates, now a gate defender is attacking them and impliying that she doesn't trust them... I think a pretty obvious conclusion for them should be that she is attacking them cause she thinks they are a danger flr the gate, which is exactly the main reason.
    If they had a long time, they probably couldn't figure out her motivations, because her motivations don't make sense even for people who know all that we know. But they had two panels - when do you think they should have figured our her motivations?

    The paladins have figured out her motivation (terror of Xykon because of what he did to her and her firends) but only because Serini basically told them.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    There were two panels (note panels, not strips) between them figuring out who Serini was and that she'd got their messages, and her escaping.

    In that time, V told her off for ad hominem attacks, and Hayley said there was no need to keep fighting. None of those were the same thing as their sendings. What do you think they should have said?


    If they had a long time, they probably couldn't figure out her motivations, because her motivations don't make sense even for people who know all that we know. But they had two panels - when do you think they should have figured our her motivations?

    The paladins have figured out her motivation (terror of Xykon because of what he did to her and her firends) but only because Serini basically told them.
    They figured out the secret door in one panel.
    And they know for sure she won't stop if they just tell her "listen to us'", why did Haley say exactly that in the last strip? Again?
    And her motivations do have sense, a lot.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    We've seen that she knows about one blown gate, and nothing indicates that she knows the Order was there. I had assumed (like most others) that she probably knew something about the others, but I'm not so sure about that anymore.
    I think there are a lot of context clues that suggests she knows at least something about the other Gates.

    • She knows Xykon killed both Lirian and Dorukan, so she knows specifically that Xykon has been in pursuit of the Gates, and possibly more than that, depending on the level of detail she knows.
    • She knows her Gate is the last Gate, so she knows the others blew up (she probably has a monitoring device like Girard did). Given the details she knew about Soon's Gate, I suspect she has more detailed knowledge than she's let on about the others, although she still may not know the exact power level of the Order (as you mentioned, but I'll get to that in a bit).
    • We don't know everything the Order has sent to her, but IIRC they mentioned they are in pursuit of Xykon to stop him from getting her Gate. At the minimum, we know Girard's Gate blew up and then Serini soon after started receiving Sendings from The Order of the Stick saying they are in pursuit of Xykon, whom she already knows is after the Gates. (They might have even mentioned they did it.)
    • As per points 1 and 2, she may well know the details of the other Gates like she did of Soon's Gate. As per point 3, even if she doesn't know the details like she did of Soon's Gate, it would be reasonable for her to conclude, from the timeline and information she does have, that the Order had some involvement with, at the least, Girard's Gate blowing up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    But whether she knows about the blown gates or not, she doesn't seem to know anything about the Order in particular. Which means she had a poor basis for the assumption that they couldn't beat Xykon on which her decision to attack them was based.
    While she doesn't know the Order's power level, Girard's Gate blowing up wasn't that long ago in comic time. If she concluded, per above, they blew it to keep it from getting in his hands, then it's easy to extrapolate that they didn't think they could take him, and not much time has passed, so why can they take him now?

    (Of course, at the time they did it, they only had three party members at full strength, they had to prevent two groups of villains from getting control of the Gate, they've gotten stronger since then, and they didn't have Minrah, Lien, and O-Chul with them, either. But if you concede Serini doesn't know their exact power level, then it's unlikely she knew the Order's tactical reasons for blowing Girard's Gate to that degree.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    They figured out the secret door in one panel.
    And they know for sure she won't stop if they just tell her "listen to us'", why did Haley say exactly that in the last strip? Again?
    And her motivations do have sense, a lot.
    Well, seven panels, but that's not really the point. Did you think of anything they might have said instead?

    Her being terrified of Xykon makes sense if you know about his beatdown of her (which the order doesn't). But it does not make sense for her to transfer that terror to the Order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think there are a lot of context clues that suggests she knows at least something about the other Gates.

    • She knows Xykon killed both Lirian and Dorukan, so she knows specifically that Xykon has been in pursuit of the Gates, and possibly more than that, depending on the level of detail she knows.
    • She knows her Gate is the last Gate, so she knows the others blew up (she probably has a monitoring device like Girard did). Given the details she knew about Soon's Gate, I suspect she has more detailed knowledge than she's let on about the others, although she still may not know the exact power level of the Order (as you mentioned, but I'll get to that in a bit).
    • We don't know everything the Order has sent to her, but IIRC they mentioned they are in pursuit of Xykon to stop him from getting her Gate. At the minimum, we know Girard's Gate blew up and then Serini soon after started receiving Sendings from The Order of the Stick saying they are in pursuit of Xykon, whom she already knows is after the Gates. (They might have even mentioned they did it.)
    • As per points 1 and 2, she may well know the details of the other Gates like she did of Soon's Gate. As per point 3, even if she doesn't know the details like she did of Soon's Gate, it would be reasonable for her to conclude, from the timeline and information she does have, that the Order had some involvement with, at the least, Girard's Gate blowing up.
    I agree with the first three points, and the fourth is a maybe. But non of that suggests the Order can't defeat Xykon.

    Indeed, if she knows as much context about all he gates as she seemed to about Soon's, then her estimation of the Order's would be greater, because she'd know they beat Xykon.

    While she doesn't know the Order's power level, Girard's Gate blowing up wasn't that long ago in comic time. If she concluded, per above, they blew it to keep it from getting in his hands, then it's easy to extrapolate that they didn't think they could take him, and not much time has passed, so why can they take him now?
    If we assume that she knew Xykon and the Order were at Girard's Gate (I doubt she knew Xykon was there) that would still be huge leap that it blew up because they decided they couldn't take him - especially if she knew that Dorukon's gate was destroyed after they defeated Xykon. For all she would know, Xykon might have destroyed the gate after the Order denied it to him, or he destroyed it by accident (like Lirian's). A third party (perhaps one Girard's minions) might have destroyed the gate (as she seems to know happened with Soon's gate.

    And I know you don't like this sort of logic. But if her reason for thinking the Order couldn't take Xykon was because he'd consistently defeated them the past, that is what she would have said in panel five. Instead, she said that he killed her friends.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-11-28 at 04:18 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    The thing is, who thinks for real that the order now have even one chance of beating team evil in a fight?

    Xykon killed Lirian and Dorukan in 1v1 combat, the order is a team but Xykon has a team too. At Girard's gate Redcloak kept 4/6 of the order very busy with just one spell, Oona and Greyview should be pretty powerfull, and MITD too (only Ochul knows that he is "good").

    For me it's obvious that they won't win him in a fight, Xykon will be destroyed by other means.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    The thing is, who thinks for real that the order now have even one chance of beating team evil in a fight?

    Xykon killed Lirian and Dorukan in 1v1 combat, the order is a team but Xykon has a team too. At Girard's gate Redcloak kept 4/6 of the order very busy with just one spell, Oona and Greyview should be pretty powerfull, and MITD too (only Ochul knows that he is "good").

    For me it's obvious that they won't win him in a fight, Xykon will be destroyed by other means.
    I think they have a chance based on what we've seen. The simplest answer is that they've beaten him and his team before.

    As for Girard's gate, I don't think that means much. Redcloak's spell kept them busy, but didn't come close to beating them. Even though they were wounded at the start, the were still strong enough after beating that monster (and those other two demons) to beat Nale and Tarquin and his army.

    Either way since them they've gained more allies (now up to 9), gained levels, and gained magic items.

    so yes, putting the narrative aside, I think they'd be a chance of beating Xykon's team. I'd think Xykon would probably win, but I think the Order would have a chance.

    Did you manage to think of anything Hayley should have said to Serini? You've had a whole lot more time than Hayley did.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-11-28 at 04:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.
    I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Serini's line of thinking is not "Xykon winning wouldn't be so bad, therefore I won't fight him.", but "I'm desperately afraid of ever facing Xykon again, therefore I need to come up with reasons why him winning won't be so bad.". And when a person is that emotionally invested in arriving at a specific conclusion, they'll accept a lot of arguments that they'd ordinarily be much more critical of. I think, if you pressed her on it, Serini would admit that she doesn't really believe that someone will topple Xykon - that's why she came up with the backup excuse that life might possibly get better for some of the monster races.

    It is a very human (for lack of a better word) thing to do, though, and I actually find myself a lot less annoyed with her now than I was two pages ago. Although at this point I think the best thing for her would be if she got tagged with one of her own tranquilizer darts, and she woke up in some nice, competent therapist's office. On a comfortable couch, with an infinite pot of tea next to her. And a beholder plushie to hug.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I agree with the first three points, and the fourth is a maybe. But non of that suggests the Order can't defeat Xykon.

    Indeed, if she knows as much context about all he gates as she seemed to about Soon's, then her estimation of the Order's would be greater, because she'd know they beat Xykon.
    As I said, it's their own choice to destroy Girard's Gate rather than fighting Xykon that suggests it.

    And if she knows about what happened at Dorukan's Gate, that works both ways. It means she also knows the Order destroyed one Gate and then... a year later or so? I forget the timeline exactly... destroyed another Gate, which brings us back to the timeline: "If they haven't gotten good enough in the year between Dorukan's Gate and Girard's Gate to come up with a Xykon strategy besides 'blow up the Gate,' how could they have gotten that good in two weeks?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    If we assume that she knew Xykon and the Order were at Girard's Gate (I doubt she knew Xykon was there) that would still be huge leap that it blew up because they decided they couldn't take him - especially if she knew that Dorukon's gate was destroyed after they defeated Xykon. For all she would know, Xykon might have destroyed the gate after the Order denied it to him, or he destroyed it by accident (like Lirian's). A third party (perhaps one Girard's minions) might have destroyed the gate (as she seems to know happened with Soon's gate.
    I don't think it's a huge leap. It is possible to assume other things, yes. But this gets back to a point that's been at the genesis of the Serini debate: The people opposing Xykon have a history of destroying Gates, and Serini seems to know that wherever they go, destroyed Gates follow, and maybe she knows they're the ones doing it. Given how high she considers the stakes of her Gate, she would not want to take the chance with them doing it again.

    And that's in the case she doesn't actually know what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    And I know you don't like this sort of logic. But if her reason for thinking the Order couldn't take Xykon was because he'd consistently defeated them the past, that is what she would have said in panel five. Instead, she said that he killed her friends.
    I dunno. I see where you're coming from, but the reason I don't like that line of logic is that it presumes too much about characters acting the way we want them to act, or think they should act, or would act ourselves. But probably more relevant, she already had the gate-blowing conversation with Lien and O-Chul, and it would be redundant (probably both from her point of view and from Rich's point of view in wanting to shed further light on Serini's thinking).
    Last edited by Ruck; 2021-11-28 at 04:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Serini's line of thinking is not "Xykon winning wouldn't be so bad, therefore I won't fight him.", but "I'm desperately afraid of ever facing Xykon again, therefore I need to come up with reasons why him winning won't be so bad.". And when a person is that emotionally invested in arriving at a specific conclusion, they'll accept a lot of arguments that they'd ordinarily be much more critical of. I think, if you pressed her on it, Serini would admit that she doesn't really believe that someone will topple Xykon - that's why she came up with the backup excuse that life might possibly get better for some of the monster races.
    I mean she literally said “Xykon is unbeatable!” right now when she said Xykon would eventually be toppled earlier, so yeah that’s pretty much what’s going on already.

    It is a very human (for lack of a better word) thing to do, though, and I actually find myself a lot less annoyed with her now than I was two pages ago. Although at this point I think the best thing for her would be if she got tagged with one of her own tranquilizer darts, and she woke up in some nice, competent therapist's office. On a comfortable couch, with an infinite pot of tea next to her. And a beholder plushie to hug.
    Yes to everything in this post.

    Does the beholder plushie squeak?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Does the beholder plushie squeak?
    Yes. And if you pinch the eye stalks, they light up and make tiny pew pew sounds.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I think they have a chance based on what we've seen. The simplest answer is that they've beaten him and his team before.

    As for Girard's gate, I don't think that means much. Redcloak's spell kept them busy, but didn't come close to beating them. Even though they were wounded at the start, the were still strong enough after beating that monster (and those other two demons) to beat Nale and Tarquin and his army.

    Either way since them they've gained more allies (now up to 9), gained levels, and gained magic items.

    so yes, putting the narrative aside, I think they'd be a chance of beating Xykon's team. I'd think Xykon would probably win, but I think the Order would have a chance.

    Did you manage to think of anything Hayley should have said to Serini? You've had a whole lot more time than Hayley did.
    Redcloak is stronger now too, and that was only one spell. I mean, he can cast many more spells.
    The point is he has lvl 9 spells so is very dangerous (he almost deleted Durkon in 1 round). We don't know how powerfull Oona is, but i guess is at least the average of the Order, same for Greyview.
    If Xykon alone can delete half of the team really easy...
    And the time when they beated him is not really "canon", I mean, Xykon only casted magic misile there XD


    I have already said a ot of things Haley could tell to Serini instead of repeat "listen to us!!". And I didn't have more time than her to think it, they were sending Serini long ago, what were they going to tell her if she answered? They didn't have anything prepared? Were they going to just improvise? I don't think so. They should have a lot of things prepared to be told, specially when they destroyed gates before and they obviously need some argument well prepared to make a gate defender trust them. If that's not the case, then they totally suck. They can be that dumb to think a gate defender would trust them without any doubt.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-11-28 at 09:31 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    You know, it strikes me we've been underestimating the potential effectiveness of "Ugh, we've cleared every entrance and none of them led to the gate. I can't believe that cheeky little halfling rogue pulled off that bluff."
    And indeed, Girard pulled one like that with lead foil inside the pillar in his pyramid... and it would worked if Roy didn't have skills on Knowledge (Engineering). So, why wouldn't Serini pull anything similar to that?

    EDIT: also, Serini is pulling a mix of other Order of Scribble members vision about perfect defense. She used a lot of powerful magic here to create the dungeons, as Dorukan would. She used the nature as a defense element – since the rocks prevent teleport –, as Lirian would. She found a lot of monsters to do the dirty job, as Kraagor would. Since a search is an activity which benefits from an orderly mindset, she screwed lawful ones, like Sapphire Guard, with her plans. Why wouldn't her pulling some Girard's tricks here? She is a rogue, a pragmatic class that has no qualms about using every trick they know. So yes, I really believe that entire dungeon thing is nothing but a big bluff.
    Last edited by lcavalheiro; 2021-11-28 at 10:36 AM.
    Seems like Stickverse is at same time defying and validating Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus propositions 1. and 1.1. Also, it weirdly confirms proposition 6.44...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Girard's double-bluff was never the only line of defense, only the last. And stalling the intruders for any amount of time would let the Draketooths set up more nasty traps and ambushes.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2021-11-28 at 10:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Girard's double-bluff was never the only line of defense, only the last. And stalling the intruders for any amount of time would let the Draketooths set up more nasty traps and ambushes.
    But would look after your house's keys in a cupboard if someone explicitly told you said keys were in your garage? Serini's diaries said with all letters she has encased the gate inside dungeon. Why Team Evil would look for it in other places?
    Seems like Stickverse is at same time defying and validating Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus propositions 1. and 1.1. Also, it weirdly confirms proposition 6.44...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    There are literally no reasons for Serini to have done that narratively besides "Girard did it something like that" and "it sounds cool", and if you ask me neither sound even remotely compelling. This isn't 8-Bit Theater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    And before anyone asks why I'm pulling Kraagor's gate being hidden on Kraagor's statue from a tophat, with rabbits and all magic and that, I say: do you remember when we got a look at Serini's diary and we see her drawings of Order of Scribble, she put an arrow pointing to Kraagor?
    Seems like Stickverse is at same time defying and validating Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus propositions 1. and 1.1. Also, it weirdly confirms proposition 6.44...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    There are literally no reasons for Serini to have done that narratively besides "Girard did it something like that" and "it sounds cool", and if you ask me neither sound even remotely compelling. This isn't 8-Bit Theater.
    Narratively, she has a good reason. What is strength? It is not being weak. That was Kraagor's belief. So, how could her plan not being weak? Being make using all strong elements from everyone else plans. In theory, if a plan is made of only strong elements, said plan would be a strong plan. And about double-bluff... it was hinted that Girard and Serini have some conversation along years past the gate thing. That, and the fact Girard was a master trickster and bluffer would inspire her to think the Girard's biggest strength was his ability to bluff.
    Seems like Stickverse is at same time defying and validating Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus propositions 1. and 1.1. Also, it weirdly confirms proposition 6.44...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Literally every member of the Scribblers has an arrow pointing to them here, so yes I think you're grasping at straws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Literally every member of the Scribblers has an arrow pointing to them here, so yes I think you're grasping at straws.
    Indeed you're right at this. I had a bad memory of this drawing which leads me to remember only Kraagor had an arrow pointing to him.
    Seems like Stickverse is at same time defying and validating Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus propositions 1. and 1.1. Also, it weirdly confirms proposition 6.44...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Redcloak is stronger now too, and that was only one spell. I mean, he can cast many more spells.
    The point is he has lvl 9 spells so is very dangerous (he almost deleted Durkon in 1 round). We don't know how powerfull Oona is, but i guess is at least the average of the Order, same for Greyview.
    If Xykon alone can delete half of the team really easy...
    Good planning and a bit of lucky improvisation can go a long way. Team Evil ultimately failed to delete the two clerics who are also the lowest level members of the party. I'm not saying I wouldn't bet on Xykon from an in-universe perspective, but we know he's beatable(, period) and the Order+the Guard+Serini's crew+a defecting Monster would be a massive action economy disadvantage to work against at the very least.

    And the time when they beated him is not really "canon", I mean, Xykon only casted magic misile there XD
    Right? I prefer to treat the entire firts book and much everything in it as early-installment weirdness.

    Quote Originally Posted by lcavalheiro View Post
    And before anyone asks why I'm pulling Kraagor's gate being hidden on Kraagor's statue from a tophat, with rabbits and all magic and that, I say: do you remember when we got a look at Serini's diary and we see her drawings of Order of Scribble, she put an arrow pointing to Kraagor?
    Um… There's an arrow for literally everyone (and, in fact, two for Girard). Is Kraagor's Gate between Girard's buttcheeks too?

    Edit: beaten to the punch with that.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-11-28 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Right? I prefer to treat the entire firts book and much everything in it as early-installment weirdness..
    I mean, Xykon was obviously toying with them and he didn't have FoM. Since Roy is apparently about as strong as a frost giant(possibly even with class levels!) with only a Belt of Giant Strength, the Bull's Strength that'd been cast on him before the fight would have put his Strength score in the mid-20s. Since grappling involves BAB, I don't think there even needed to be any "fudging" of the rolls for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I mean, Xykon was obviously toying with them and he didn't have FoM. Since Roy is apparently about as strong as a frost giant(possibly even with class levels!) with only a Belt of Giant Strength, the Bull's Strength that'd been cast on him before the fight would have put his Strength score in the mid-20s. Since grappling involves BAB, I don't think there even needed to be any "fudging" of the rolls for that.
    I guess. That still felt weird. Redcloak (who didn't even cast a spell during the fight if I remember correctly) and the (porn watching, when can I eat the heroes early-installment) Monster just slinking off despite the Order not being in any shape to deal with them (V was paralyzed, Roy weaponless, Haley and Elan were roughed up by the Symbol of Pain…) on the other hand doesn't make a lick of sense.

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