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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure I follow you.
    So at least one of these things must be false:

    1) The standard dungeon set up is worse than useless for anyone of the appropriate level or higher
    2) People in OotS-verse are aware of (1)
    3) People in OotS-verse are able to make rational decisions based on (2)

    By rational in (3), I mean basic reasoning because this is a set-up for a game that tries to be fair, not someone actually trying to defend anything.

    We don't know exactly where the statement "Dungeon crawling is helping Xykon, and Serini should consider that" falls apart, but we know from the setting that it has to.
    Excuses and explanations are different.

    Sometimes when there can be no excuses we must look the hardest for explanations.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    So at least one of these things must be false:

    1) The standard dungeon set up is worse than useless for anyone of the appropriate level or higher
    2) People in OotS-verse are aware of (1)
    3) People in OotS-verse are able to make rational decisions based on (2)

    By rational in (3), I mean basic reasoning because this is a set-up for a game that tries to be fair, not someone actually trying to defend anything.

    We don't know exactly where the statement "Dungeon crawling is helping Xykon, and Serini should consider that" falls apart, but we know from the setting that it has to.
    Ö
    Is your argument literally just "Serini should know better therefore she does therefore it's not a bad idea"? That's not a very good argument.
    At any rate, the theoretical ability to make the right decision doesn't automatically necessitate that the right decision shall be made.

    Edit: Serini's whole reasoning might as well just've been "no one is of the appropriate level or higher", whereas now she's just too afraid of the party that is to keep them from growing stronger while plowing through her defences.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-12-02 at 01:27 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Ö
    At any rate, the theoretical ability to make the right decision doesn't automatically necessitate that the right decision shall be made.
    If everyone agreed to that, the "Serini is a Moron" thread would have died at post 2. And any number of other threads would not have become hamster wheels.
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    The shapphire guard are their allies now, but at first they were hostile to them either.
    Well, not really. Miko was hostile towards them, because Miko was Miko, but they got along very well with other members of the Sapphire Guard even before they were found innocent, and the trial itself was just a pretense for Shojo to seek their aid. They were allies before they even met.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    ... they got along very well with other members of the Sapphire Guard even before they were found innocent, and the trial itself was just a pretense for Shojo to seek their aid. They were allies before they even met.
    Yep, Shojo wanted them on side so that he could side step the Oath Soon took.
    And it worked, though perhaps not with the outcome he'd have preferred.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Ö
    Is your argument literally just "Serini should know better therefore she does therefore it's not a bad idea"? That's not a very good argument.
    I said one of the three things must be false, if my intention was to say it was a particular one of those things, I would have said so.

    Stepping back a bit, I'd sum up my argument by saying that "we're not like to find satisfyingly in-universe answers as to why the universe looks like a game of D&D" and that this includes the specific question of why Serini does/doesn't care about the XP and loot Xykon is acquiring.
    At any rate, the theoretical ability to make the right decision doesn't automatically necessitate that the right decision shall be made.
    To clarify, when I say people can make a choice about a thing in this context, I mean to say that the author is deciding the character's action based upon the specific character's personality, knowledge, and situation.

    My opinion is that Rich is making a few big decisions about the dungeons (does it exist at all? and what's the hook?) based on the characters and defaulting to D&D tropes for the rest. "The rest" includes a bunch of silly things everyone (including the readers) treat as normal, but are glaringly obvious flaws to anyone with an objective perspective.

    Conversely, if we want to analyze conventional dungeon design as a deliberate character driven choice, we'd then have to ask why Xykon, Serini, Dorukan and the silver dragon all made the same choices. Also why Roy (who I'll assume has any knowledge of how something can be effectively defended at all) wasn't surprised at how Dorukan's dungeon was defended.
    Excuses and explanations are different.

    Sometimes when there can be no excuses we must look the hardest for explanations.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Yeah, a personal reason for it is more compelling than just thinking she's logciked it all out.

    Also she seems to be treating power as a simple thing, much like Vaarsuvius used to. These powerful people failed, therefore nobody can win. Yet when Vaarsuvius nearly threw the phylactery into the rift they did it with low level magic, coming much closer to an actual lasting blow than the soul splices did. It will be something like that that takes Xykon down rather than just grouping up the bigger numbers against him.
    Like Power Levels in Dragon Ball Z. The entire idea was only introduced just to show that measuring raw power, without regard for skill and determination, was a useless standard. And all the characters who couldn't get past measuring their opponents based purely on their Power Level were shown to get obliterated by "lesser" fighters. (Of course that doesn't prevent the online fandom from completely missing the point and continue to obsess over characters Power Levels to this day, 30 years after they were introduced into the story just to be shown to be pointless.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Halfmoon View Post
    I think you just stepped on the most important points; Redcloak and The Dark One.

    Problem is, you have it all wrong. Redcloak does not intend for Xykon to blackmail the Gods. He intends to give the gate to the Dark One who can blackmail the gods or destroy them as he sees fit. We've known Redcloak has been planning to betray Xykon for a long time now. Unfortunately, Serini does not have that information.

    If Team Evil seizes the Gate, it won't end with Xykon ruling the world. It will end with the either the Gods destroying it, or the Snarl destroying the Gods. Because I don't think the Dark One truly cares about his people anymore. He just wants revenge.

    In summary, Serini is not playing with a full deck, and so she can't be fully blamed here.
    I know that Redcloak's plan is to fake Xykon out, and allow the Dark One to use the Snarl for its purpose. But I don't think we should be so sure that Redcloak will succeed. In the Start of Darkness prequel there are at least a couple of points where Redcloak thinks he has outsmarted Xykon, but Xykon had his number all along.

    I doubt either Redcloak or Xykon's scheme would succeed if they got the control of the gate, but I think there is a high risk of the Snarl escaping and destroying the world while they try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    So at least one of these things must be false:

    1) The standard dungeon set up is worse than useless for anyone of the appropriate level or higher
    2) People in OotS-verse are aware of (1)
    3) People in OotS-verse are able to make rational decisions based on (2)

    By rational in (3), I mean basic reasoning because this is a set-up for a game that tries to be fair, not someone actually trying to defend anything.

    We don't know exactly where the statement "Dungeon crawling is helping Xykon, and Serini should consider that" falls apart, but we know from the setting that it has to.
    I don't agree that one of those three thing must be false. They could all be true, but the dungeon could be designed to only keep lower level threats out. They could have a purpose other than defence (for example Xykon seemed to keep Dorukon's dungeon stocked for his entertainment).

    But I think the best answer is to say that people in the OotS-verse are able to make rational decisions based on (2), but don't always make rational decision.

    Also, I can only think of two instances in the comic of an actual dungeon crawl set up to defend something - Serini's and Xykon in dorukon's. So it doesn't appear to be very common.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-12-03 at 12:43 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I know that Redcloak's plan is to fake Xykon out, and allow the Dark One to use the Snarl for its purpose.
    Redcloak's plan is to fake Xykon out, and allow the Dark One to threaten to use the Snarl as a weapon. The Snarl itself has no "purpose" any more than any being does.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm fairly sure that's literally what Liquor Box means.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'm fairly sure that's literally what Liquor Box means.
    Then "its" is an odd pronoun to use; one would expect "his" if the antecedent was TDO. "Its" points more to the Snarl, which again, has no inherent purpose, and so can't be used for it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Perhaps it could have been worded better, but I still thought it was fairly clear in context though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Perhaps it could have been worded better, but I still thought it was fairly clear in context though.
    I didn't think that reading was clear at all, if it was intended.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-12-03 at 01:12 AM.
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    d20 Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Prediction:
    Serini will end up drinking the forgetful potion. Possibly by being knocked into it, or it onto her.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Redcloak's plan is to fake Xykon out, and allow the Dark One to threaten to use the Snarl as a weapon. The Snarl itself has no "purpose" any more than any being does.
    A bit of a poorly constructed sentence by me. Here it is again, corrected:

    I know that Redcloak's plan is to fake Xykon out, and allow the Dark One to use the Snarl for itsthe Dark One's purpose.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    A bit of a poorly constructed sentence by me. Here it is again, corrected:

    I know that Redcloak's plan is to fake Xykon out, and allow the Dark One to use the Snarl for itsthe Dark One's purpose.
    So, the Dark One is the Snarl?!
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2021-12-03 at 01:58 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'm fairly sure that's literally what Liquor Box means.
    I read it this way also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wysper View Post
    Prediction:
    Serini will end up drinking the forgetful potion. Possibly by being knocked into it, or it onto her.
    I too am getting some distressing Chekov's Cauldron vibes.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  18. - Top - End - #408
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    Well, not really. Miko was hostile towards them, because Miko was Miko, but they got along very well with other members of the Sapphire Guard even before they were found innocent, and the trial itself was just a pretense for Shojo to seek their aid. They were allies before they even met.
    They were kind with their prisoners...
    And Shojo wanted to recruit them against their will.
    I call that hostility.

    And Miko is Miko, but if Shojo would have sent another paladin to arrest them he or she would have been hostile too.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-12-03 at 04:48 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Didnít he explicitly say that he sent her because she was so inflexible and would therefore be guaranteed to follow those orders?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Didnít he explicitly say that he sent her because she was so inflexible and would therefore be guaranteed to follow those orders?
    But any paladin would have followed that orders, if is a real paladin.
    I think he sent Miko cause she was the most powerfull paladin.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Miko's speciality is tracking: "If I had not chosen it (the Track feat) I would not have been sent to hunt you down".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Hmm, Shojo does say that he sent her because she was the strongest paladin in the Guard.

    I think that was because he wasn't sure how they'd react though(even with information from Eugene, most of it would likely be about Roy so the others are less predictable). Someone like O-Chul or Hinjo would likely leave a much better impression on everyone except maybe Belkar. Remember, V tried to set off an Explosive Runes spell in her face, Haley considered abandoning the party, Roy flat out told her to shove it after the inn fiasco, and even Elan thought she was mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Didnít he explicitly say that he sent her because she was so inflexible and would therefore be guaranteed to follow those orders?
    He did indeed, which is somewhat odd since she tried to kill them instead.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    He did indeed, which is somewhat odd since she tried to kill them instead.
    To be fair, that was due to the crown - how would Shojo or Miko have known beforehand? Considering that she stopped attacking once she understood what was happening, it's entirely possible she wouldn't have started attacking like that in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wysper View Post
    Prediction:
    Serini will end up drinking the forgetful potion. Possibly by being knocked into it, or it onto her.
    That would be an interesting twist, and would be a great addition to the predictions thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    They were kind with their prisoners...
    And Shojo wanted to recruit them against their will.
    I call that hostility.
    No. The word you want is devious, disingenuous, or related terms.
    And Miko is Miko, but if Shojo would have sent another paladin to arrest them he or she would have been hostile too.
    You can't assume that. Your Miko is Miko point is the key to why it panned out as it did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    I think he sent Miko cause she was the most powerfull paladin.
    In part, yes. You might argue that Shojo as M sent out 007, his best agent, but the parallel isn't very good given Bond's mental flexibility and Miko's lack thereof.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Miko's speciality is tracking: "If I had not chosen it (the Track feat) I would not have been sent to hunt you down".
    Thank you.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-12-03 at 09:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Yep, Shojo wanted them on side so that he could side step the Oath Soon took.
    I think this might be a point in Serini's favour.

    Shojo bypassed the non-interference oath, leading to:
    a) Miko falling and taking the head of state with her, which may have also driven the nobility to flee with their forces before the battle.
    b) The Linear Guild finding out about the Gates - and thereby the IFCC finding out about them.
    c) Vaarsuvius gaining the Soul Splice and killing the Draketooths.
    d) The Order knowing about Girard's gate and finding and destroying it.
    e) The Order heading to her Gate and begin to expose her hidden defences to Team Evil.

    If Shojo had not interfered then Xykon would still have shown up to Soon's gate with an army of hobgoblins, but they may have met a more unified front and so the threat may have ended there - even if it didn't Girard's gate would have been better defended when he arrived and Serini's Gate's would be somewhat less exposed.

    In terms of Gate preservation Shojo's actions have likely been more harmful then helpful.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    To be fair, that was due to the crown - how would Shojo or Miko have known beforehand? Considering that she stopped attacking once she understood what was happening, it's entirely possible she wouldn't have started attacking like that in the first place.
    Eh, that wouldn't really fly if I were head honcho of Azure City. Her orders were to bring them back, not bring them back unless one of them is evil in which case kill them all. She even declares she is executing them in the name of Lord Shojo, which is something he absolutely did not order.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm not saying that Miko did well(she sucks), I'm saying that if Roy hadn't pinged as Evil even Miko likely wouldn't have started with the stabbings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  29. - Top - End - #419
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Eh, that wouldn't really fly if I were head honcho of Azure City. Her orders were to bring them back, not bring them back unless one of them is evil in which case kill them all. She even declares she is executing them in the name of Lord Shojo, which is something he absolutely did not order.
    Technically he instructs her to effectively act on her own initiative about 'what must be done' (panel 13/14) he never rescinds that merely adds that his cat would like her to try to them back alive for trial (panel 13) - which she indicates she will do if it is possible.

    It wouldn't be unreasonable to decide that transporting a band of evil adventurers across half a continent was not possible without unacceptable risk - particularly if it was merely at the suggestion of a housecat, dead they could still provide answers via speak with dead or similiar magic (they might even be raised).

  30. - Top - End - #420
    Titan in the Playground
     
    danielxcutter's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

    I mean, as bad as Miko was she wasn't as unhinged at first.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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