OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[Kornaki]

So it is just a spell on a list that he might possibly prepare? That's quite low risk, but if they are worried then there are counters.

The other argument that was posted is pretty strong. O-chul beat Redcloak in a fight and watched him word of recall away.

[dancrilis]

Serini said Xykon was unbeatable. In other words, she believes her protections will eventually fail, or else Xykon wouldn't be unbeatable, would he?

No.

Assuming that both people know the rules neither will be able to beat the other at tic-tac-toe unless one of them chooses to lose - both players are unbeatable.

Assuming that Xykon is actually unbeatable does not mean that he will actually win - and I get the impression that she meant more unbeatable in a head on fight rather then unbeatable by even his own patients.

[danielxcutter]

I should also point out the defenses are actively making Team Evil stronger by providing them with ample amounts of XP and treasure.

[dancrilis]

I should also point out the defenses are actively making Team Evil stronger by providing them with ample amounts of XP and treasure.

And if they get strong enough they might be able to go away and make a new gate over a rift and ...
a) leave Serini's alone.
b) help reinforce the universe.

[ziproot]

And if they get strong enough they might be able to go away and make a new gate over a rift and ...
a) leave Serini's alone.
b) help reinforce the universe.

As soon as another gate is created, it too would need to be protected. If Serini sees Team Evil as a threat to her gate, that means she thinks they may actually do something bad with it. So why wouldn't they do that same bad thing, whatever it is, with the gate they create, assuming they choose to do such a thing?

Also, I get your point, but if she meant that the only way to defeat him was through a teleport trap, she could have started with that.

[Liquor Box]

The other argument that was posted is pretty strong. O-chul beat Redcloak in a fight and watched him word of recall away.

If the Order knows that he does cast it, like the other poster said, then they would be able to counter it. I am not familiar with what spells V and durkon might have which could counter it, although I imagine there are some. But if not, a simply counter would be to follow them into one of the dungeons and ambush them in there - I think the walls of the dungeons can't be penetrated by that sort of spell.

And if they get strong enough they might be able to go away and make a new gate over a rift and ...
a) leave Serini's alone.
b) help reinforce the universe.

Xykon getting control of a different gate would be almost as bad as getting Serini's gate. Xykon could still do whatever hijinks he plans to do with Serini's gate with the high risk of the world's destruction that entails.

[danielxcutter]

Word of Recall is a Teleportation effect, which all involve using the Astral Plane (or occasionally the Shadow Plane) as a shortcut. It's blocked off in the same way that Xykon isn't able to cheese this dungeon with Ghostform.

And there are indeed ways to counter Redcloak casting Word of Recall even without it - Dimension Anchor or Dimension Lock are quite literally designed for this, and it's still a spell so even without the Spellsplinter Maneuver he'd still need to roll a Concentration check if he was damaged while casting it.

(This, incidentally is why counterspelling is considered suboptimal, as you can simply ready an action to blast them with a spell instead. Spells tend to pack more of a punch than a single melee attack anyways.)

[Vikenlugaid]

All those are reasons why that fight with the summoning doesn't mean much.

They are powerful, so is the Order.


Ummm, something being canon has nothing to do with what spells Xykon decided to cast.



Great, what was one of those things you've mentioned that Hayley could have said that doesn't rely on knowing what Serini's objections were?

1- The fight with the summoning means that team evil is not really in numeric disadvantage, cause Redcloak can summon monsters powerfull enough to keep busy 3 or 4 members of the order.

2- Ok then "Xykon is unbeatable, unlesh he doesn't use his spells"

3- Anything better than "listen to us!" when is obvious she won't stop for that.

[otakuryoga]

Considering how close the last escape was the rating seems a tad optimistic. I don't see any friendly monsters with surprise abilities around to bail them out this time...

escapes by the skin of your teeth that seem doomed right up til the moment you pop out of the foes clutches OBVIOUSLY deserve the highest ranking

[Liquor Box]

1- The fight with the summoning means that team evil is not really in numeric disadvantage, cause Redcloak can summon monsters powerfull enough to keep busy 3 or 4 members of the order.

Sure, unless they cast protection from evil.

2- Ok then "Xykon is unbeatable, unlesh he doesn't use his spells"

Nope, they've beaten him when he does use his spells.

3- Anything better than "listen to us!" when is obvious she won't stop for that.

Yes you still haven't replied to me nominating single thing in about 6 posts of trying. But I'll keep giving you a shot. What do you think she should say?

[Hurkyl]

3- Anything better than "listen to us!" when is obvious she won't stop for that.

How about "She might have information we want! Get her!" Oh wait, that was probably even worse.

[danielxcutter]

Sure, unless they cast protection from evil.

Actually, Protection from [Alignment] only works like that if the summoned creature is of that alignment. And Redcloak favors summoning periodical elementals over fiends or fiendish creatures unless the latter is strictly better for a given situation.

That being said, unless it's summoned through a Gate spell Vaarsuvius or Durkon can yeet it right back to the plane it came from quite easily.

[Vikenlugaid]

Sure, unless they cast protection from evil.



Nope, they've beaten him when he does use his spells.



Yes you still haven't replied to me nominating single thing in about 6 posts of trying. But I'll keep giving you a shot. What do you think she should say?

1- protectiom from evil vs an elemental?

2- When? With ghost Soon his spells weren't very usefull either, and that's was a "once in the history moment"... And better don't talk about that in front of Serini, cause then they had to explain how Xykon got free of that...
In fact, Serini thinks they won't beat Xykon and they will destroy the gate so Xykon couldn't get it... If she knew that Xykon have been beaten two times AND those gates have been destroyed anyway, I think she will go on lethal attacks ASAP XD

3- man I have said many things before you asked me the first time. Anything, just anything, just try, they didn't even tell her they are here to beat Xykon, or to protect the gate, we the readers know that if Haley said "we need your help to beat Xykon" maybe she won't agree anyway... But Haley doesn't know that, from Haley's POV Serini is attacking them cause she thinks they are trying to get the gate or something... You say Haley hasn't got time to say something, but the truth is that since she knows they are fighting Serini, she has got a lot of speech balloons, and she hasn't used any of them to say something to Serini that could, at least from her POV, clearify something about why they are there and why she shouldn't attack them. Saying just "we are on your side" when she is not explaining what is that "side", or "listen to us" when she is not saying anything to be listened, obviously won't work at all.

[Liquor Box]

1- protectiom from evil vs an elemental?

protection from evil against a summon.

2- When? With ghost Soon his spells weren't very usefull either, and that's was a "once in the history moment"... And better don't talk about that in front of Serini, cause then they had to explain how Xykon got free of that...

We aren't talking what Serini knows here. We are talking about whether we, the reader, thinks the Order can beat Xykon.

Yes, when the paladins got the better of him, and when the order beat him.

3- man I have said many things before you asked me the first time. Anything, just anything, just try, they didn't even tell her they are here to beat Xykon, or to protect the gate, we the readers know that if Haley said "we need your help to beat Xykon" maybe she won't agree anyway... But Haley doesn't know that, from Haley's POV Serini is attacking them cause she thinks they are trying to get the gate or something... You say Haley hasn't got time to say something, but the truth is that since she knows they are fighting Serini, she has got a lot of speech balloons, and she hasn't used any of them to say something to Serini that could, at least from her POV, clearify something about why they are there and why she shouldn't attack them. Saying just "we are on your side" when she is not explaining what is that "side", or "listen to us" when she is not saying anything to be listened, obviously won't work at all.

A couple of minor points - Hayley has had 5 speech bubbles since figuring who Serini was, when she's in the same panel as Serini - two of those were the "we're on the side" passage. Also, Hayley has no idea why Serini is attacking - it is not a natural assumption that she's attacking because she thinks they'll mess with the gate.

Now as to your suggested thing to say:

"We need your help to beat Xykon"

• This is just a variation of "we are on the same side", they only difference is it mentioned Xykon (see point 3, below). You were super critical of Hayley for repeating variations of "just listen", but your first suggestion is that they repeat something else that didn't work?
• I'm not sure it's true. Have they said they want Serini's help? They said not to let her get away because she might have information.
• This presupposes that she knows who Xykon is. Why would the Order think Serini knows Xykon

So, I don't think your first suggestion was better than what Hayley said. Do you have any other suggestions?

[Vikenlugaid]

A couple of minor points - Hayley has had 5 speech bubbles since figuring who Serini was, when she's in the same panel as Serini - two of those were the "we're on the side" passage. Also, Hayley has no idea why Serini is attacking - it is not a natural assumption that she's attacking because she thinks they'll mess with the gate.

Now as to your suggested thing to say:

"We need your help to beat Xykon"

• This is just a variation of "we are on the same side", they only difference is it mentioned Xykon (see point 3, below). You were super critical of Hayley for repeating variations of "just listen", but your first suggestion is that they repeat something else that didn't work?
• I'm not sure it's true. Have they said they want Serini's help? They said not to let her get away because she might have information.
• This presupposes that she knows who Xykon is. Why would the Order think Serini knows Xykon

So, I don't think your first suggestion was better than what Hayley said. Do you have any other suggestions?

I have explained why telling anyone "I am on your side" without explaining what side is that is far less effective than telling exactly on what side are you.
Saying "we are here to beat Xykon" is clear, saying "we are on your side" could mean a lot of things.

Why shouldn't she know Xykon? He is at her gate now, the logic asumption is that she knows Xykon is there. And you think they don't need Serini's help? So they are so confident and arrogant they will reject any help? Weird.

No, i don't give you more suggestion, cause we both know you won't accept them and is a waste of time. If you think Haley is doing her best to try to stop Serini ok, me not.

[Gurgeh]

protection from evil against a summon.

If I may offer a little more clarity:

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

This would work perfectly fine against anything Redcloak is likely to summon (since he's not about to bring in anything good-aligned), though it's worth noting that it only wards off bodily contact - so anything that uses artificial weaponry or throws rocks or breathes fire, etc., would still be able to take a swing at them. It'd be useless against anything brought in by a Calling effect like Gate, but that's about it.

[Vikenlugaid]

If I may offer a little more clarity:


This would work perfectly fine against anything Redcloak is likely to summon (since he's not about to bring in anything good-aligned), though it's worth noting that it only wards off bodily contact - so anything that uses artificial weaponry or throws rocks or breathes fire, etc., would still be able to take a swing at them. It'd be useless against anything brought in by a Calling effect like Gate, but that's about it.

Mmm i didn't know this, I thought protection from evil was meant to protect from evil, not from "not-good". Why a neutral creature is included there? This game sometimes... XD

Anyway, in a real fight vs Xykon they will buff themself a lot, and of course Xykon will cast superb dispell.

[Liquor Box]

If I may offer a little more clarity:


This would work perfectly fine against anything Redcloak is likely to summon (since he's not about to bring in anything good-aligned), though it's worth noting that it only wards off bodily contact - so anything that uses artificial weaponry or throws rocks or breathes fire, etc., would still be able to take a swing at them. It'd be useless against anything brought in by a Calling effect like Gate, but that's about it.

The particular example was a neutral elemental.

Mmm i didn't know this, I thought protection from evil was meant to protect from evil, not from "not-good". Why a neutral creature is included there? This game sometimes... XD

Anyway, in a real fight vs Xykon they will buff themself a lot, and of course Xykon will cast superb dispell.

Sure, and the Order could dispel the summon...

I think when we get to saying Xykon would do X, the Order could do Y, but Xykon could do Z, it's too late to say the result is a certainty, because none of the characters fight optimally.

[danielxcutter]

…Huh, why do people even summon elementals then? Some flavor of that spell is on virtually every spell list.

[Liquor Box]

I have explained why telling anyone "I am on your side" without explaining what side is that is far less effective than telling exactly on what side are you.
Saying "we are here to beat Xykon" is clear, saying "we are on your side" could mean a lot of things.

Why shouldn't she know Xykon? He is at her gate now, the logic asumption is that she knows Xykon is there.

No, i don't give you more suggestion, cause we both know you won't accept them and is a waste of time. If you think Haley is doing her best to try to stop Serini ok, me not.

Guessing that Serini knows who Xykon is (in less than a minute, in the middle of an action scene) is not more obvious than Serini guessing the Order is there for Xykon. You took a shot, and you weren't able to come up with anything better than what Hayley said, so I think we can move on from being overly critical of her.

And you think they don't need Serini's help? So they are so confident and arrogant they will reject any help? Weird.

Why would they need Serini's help anymore than Serini needs theirs?

They probably would take help if it is offered, because they are not so arrogant as to reject help (unlike Serini). But now she has attacked them, she'll have to have a pretty compelling apology ready if she want a spot on the team.

…Huh, why do people even summon elementals then? Some flavor of that spell is on virtually every spell list.

I guess there are a lot of enemies who don't have protection magic, and who can't dispel them.

[a_flemish_guy]

I knew it, serini thinking nobody can beat xykon is based on him taking out her epic level ass in a surprise round (didn't think of the teammate angle though)

I also like the contrast with roy where he doesn't just accept that magic is better then martial while serini does (it doesn't help that as a rogue her primary damage dealing mechanic doesn't work on undead)

[danielxcutter]

If you plan correctly it really is possible to get one-turned at even non-epic levels. That’s basically scry-and-die in a nutshell.

[Shining Wrath]

When did O Chul get to be so funny?

[KorvinStarmast]

As for the outcome of a battle against Xykon, I have two answers.

Mechanical: O-Chul hard counters the MITD. I don't know how many people know this besides O-Chul and the MITD.

Furthermore, Sunny exists, which invalidates the "I'm just an old lady with a blowgun" statement, as she's "an old lady with a blowgun who is friends with a beholder squid tentacle thingy." Sunny has an antimagic field.

Xykon is also pretty strong, but so is Roy, and Roy has a weapon that can damage him. Not to mention the fact that it's a 15* to 4** battle. All in all, looks like the battle is heavily favored towards the "gate defenders" if they all work together.

Narrative: Neither side will win until the climax. It's too early for the "gate defenders" to win and they can't lose, as that would invalidate the Oracle's prophecy regarding Elan. Then, thanks to the Oracle's prophecy, the "gate defenders" will win.

*The 15 Gate Defenders {snipped}

• Minrah Snowshoe

Minrah Elle Shaleshoe

Also, slight nitpick; Greyview and Oona are plussed-up by the entire bugbear village.

When did O Chul get to be so funny?

Gallows humor is a thing for any prisoner, so I think his time as a PoW may have added a few skill points to the Tell Joke skill.

[Vikenlugaid]

Guessing that Serini knows who Xykon is (in less than a minute, in the middle of an action scene) is not more obvious than Serini guessing the Order is there for Xykon. You took a shot, and you weren't able to come up with anything better than what Hayley said, so I think we can move on from being overly critical of her.



Why would they need Serini's help anymore than Serini needs theirs?

They probably would take help if it is offered, because they are not so arrogant as to reject help (unlike Serini). But now she has attacked them, she'll have to have a pretty compelling apology ready if she want a spot on the team.

1- Haley doesn't need to guess that in less than a minute, they know Xykon has Serini's diary since long ago, the logical asumption is that she have met him.
And I didn't take a shoot, I took like 4 or 5, you just don't like any of them, and that's why I stopped, for me is clear that Haley could be trying far better. And it's only your opinion that my suggestions aren't better than what Haley said.

2- Who said they need Serini's help more than Serini need theirs? And what kind of answer? The Order totally need any help they could get, that's a fact.

And Serini isn't arrogant to reject help, she is being helped by several monsters, she just TRUST those monsters. That's not arrogance, she just doesn't trust the Order and she doesn't have any reason to do it for now.

[drazen]

The problem with this, as others have noted, is that it severely underestimates the amount of damage that Xykon can do if he wins. Like, lets say that the Gods aren't able to destroy the world for whatever reason, Xykon takes the Gate, destroys Redcloak's plan but gets full control over it all.

We're talking about an epic-level Lich having control over the Snarl, a creation that's so powerful that even the Gods are terrified of battling it.

...

Serini suffers from a serious lack of imagination when it comes to the amount of damage that Xykon could do. And if there's one thing that this comic has made clear about Xykon, it's this: Do not underestimate the big bad Lich, either his cunning or cruelty, and I see no compelling reason why he would ever stay content with ruling a single world.

Crazy prediction:

- Hel is famished, perhaps starving to death (we literally saw her briefly fading away on-panel), and someday there may need to be a new (Northern) god of death.
- Presumably, most of the gods certainly would not want Hel to become all-powerful should her plans for a massive influx of dwarven soul food succeed.
- Xykon wants to do anything to avoid the Big Fire Below. And he very may well be the single most powerful entity on the planet.
- Eugene's such a jerk that I feel like Xykon won't actually be defeated by "normal" means; he'll somehow be "contained" instead.

Based on all this, I can almost see a bargain where Xykon is somehow elevated to the new Northern god of death. He won't be "defeated once and for all," because he'll be a literal god and Eugene wanders the clouds, forever.

Would Xykon rather merely rule the world until the Snarl blows it up... or would he prefer to become a literal god? Now that's ambition, and in SOD he did mention something along the lines of

Spoiler

Show

that he was looking for a much "bigger" evil scheme than his usual MO. Sure, he thought it was the Gate(s), but he's been doing this for literally decades... would that appetite have not grown with his power?

[Vikenlugaid]

How can Xykon become a god? I think is implied you need people worsipping and that, people in the world hate or fear Xykon but I think none worsip him... Not now with Tsukiko dead.

[RatElemental]

That plan also damns Roy, Julia and all of their descendants right along with Eugene too. Unless they all die trying to literally kill a god I guess.

[Shining Wrath]

Considering how close the last escape was the rating seems a tad optimistic. I don't see any friendly monsters with surprise abilities around to bail them out this time...

This implies that V never told O Chul that the teleportation was not their doing. A simple oversight, or ego, or shame over what they had done while Soul Spliced?

[hungrycrow]

How can Xykon become a god? I think is implied you need people worsipping and that, people in the world hate or fear Xykon but I think none worsip him... Not now with Tsukiko dead.

I have no idea how one becomes a god in OotSworld, but worship doesn't necessarily mean people have to like Xykon. People worshipped Hel in previous worlds for just not killing them.