OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[Vikenlugaid]

I have no idea how one becomes a god in OotSworld, but worship doesn't necessarily mean people have to like Xykon. People worshipped Hel in previous worlds for just not killing them.

I mean, people worshipped Hel cause she was already a goddess, but why should people worship Xykon?
The Dark One became a god cause a lot of goblins "worshipped" him after his dead. I think Redcloak is nearer to godhood than Xykon.

[danielxcutter]

I don’t think you specifically need to be worshiped to become a god in D&D. Pretty sure there are canonical examples of that in the lore.

[hungrycrow]

I mean, people worshipped Hel cause she was already a goddess, but why should people worship Xykon?
The Dark One became a god cause a lot of goblins "worshipped" him after his dead. I think Redcloak is nearer to godhood than Xykon.

True. I don't think the other gods could just hand godship over to Xykon the way Drazen described. It would require a lot more work for Xykon to become recognized by more people.

[danielxcutter]

Gods can also give someone divine ranks… and well, if Xykon had the Snarl he’d have them by the reproductive organs.

[Larsaan]

I don’t think you specifically need to be worshiped to become a god in D&D. Pretty sure there are canonical examples of that in the lore.

There isn't really one set lore for gods in D&D, it varies a lot from setting to setting. Aside from Vecna (who I'll admit I don't actually know that much about), most examples come from the Forgotten Realms, where a few mortals have risen to godhood by either killing or being sponsored by another deity.

[dancrilis]

As soon as another gate is created, it too would need to be protected. If Serini sees Team Evil as a threat to her gate, that means she thinks they may actually do something bad with it. So why wouldn't they do that same bad thing, whatever it is, with the gate they create, assuming they choose to do such a thing?

Serini would not have lifted a finger to interfere with Xykon if he had captured Soon's Gate - she sees protecting her gate from destruction as her job, she does not see stopping Xykon as her job.

Also, I get your point, but if she meant that the only way to defeat him was through a teleport trap, she could have started with that.

Not specfically a teleport trap but that and any other misdirection that he falls for - if enough time is spent he might decide on a different path, one that leaves her and her gate alone.

Word of Recall is a Teleportation effect, which all involve using the Astral Plane (or occasionally the Shadow Plane) as a shortcut. It's blocked off in the same way that Xykon isn't able to cheese this dungeon with Ghostform.

Likely - but the Order was planning to ambush Xykon at the door while Redcloak was still outside, but it was more brought up to indicate that Team Evil are difficult to keep down even if they are knocked down - if the Order attacks here and doesn't have a final victory then they are likely in trouble even if they get a partial victory, word of recall is merely one way to ruin their day even if they do beat Xykon.

How can Xykon become a god?

It is very very far fetched but panel 7, Xykon gave Redcloak and Tsukiko and order to create high level updead but nothing more was ever said about it, now when going to deal with Girard's Gate having high level updead would likely be useful to deal with illusions and traps etc and that would remain true even with Tsukiko dead - but Xykon doesn't bring any, therefore it can be speculated that he has other plans for them.
Using magic (or persuasion) he might turn Jirix to his side and then have the nation of Gobbotopia under control while having undead with the spawning ability expand through the ranks - all dedicated to him (and possible The Dark One), being the worshipped ruler of a city state might be fairly long on the way to divinity but he can also travel back to Gobbotopia with ease using his magic and set things up as he needs, including seeking to conquer some neighbouring nations the old fashioned way (couple of flying meteor swarms would go a long way to having battles go his way), thereby expanding his undead force and giving his goblins the wins that they want in battle against there oppressors (The Dark One might not even object or strip clerics of spells for helping with this).
All without Redcloak knowing and he is thereby using Serini's dungeon as his own stalling tactic - and why wouldn't the southern deities vote to end the world in this? because they see his path to divinity likely giving him a purple aura or a new on and then he could help with the gates for the seat at the table which The Dark One won't enter discussions on to claim.

Again very very far fetched.

[Vikenlugaid]

We don't really know how TDO ascended, apparently was because all that killing avenging him, but we don't know if maybe another god (or cosmic creature) was after that. I mean, even his skin was that colour...

[DLcygnet]

Originally Posted by DLcygnet
Wait... is that how Serini gets her comeuppance - by getting amnesia potion spilled on her? Then nobody will know where the gate is....

That would be awesome, and would be a meta version of MiTD's "What gate?" line.

LoL. The only reference I could find in 3.5 to an amnesia potion was a Modify Memory spell. It seems limited to 5 minutes of content, so whatever she concocted must be Rich's home brew sauce. If it's far reaching, then the Order could knock the cauldron over (or knock her into it) - after Serini taunts them about not having the juice to take down Xykon - and accidentally say something like "You know nothing!" Then the conversation would be a bit more drawn out....

"Where's the gate?"
"What gate?"
"Who else is working with you?"
"I don't know."
"What's your full name?"
"I was hoping you knew."
"Curse your high bluff ranks!"

[bunsen_h]

Am I correct in thinking that Xykon would be immune to the effects of drinking potions, just as he

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

can't taste coffee?

I'm thinking of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, and the

Spoiler: HPMoR

Show

"solution" to the problem of the lich-like Voldemort by Obliviating him.

This implies that V never told O Chul that the teleportation was not their doing. A simple oversight, or ego, or shame over what they had done while Soul Spliced?

If V heard O-Chul's comment here, they are probably uncomfortable about it. But this is a terrible time to say anything along the lines of "actually, I am fairly sure that I was not responsible for that escape from Xykon".

[danielxcutter]

Am I correct in thinking that Xykon would be immune to the effects of drinking potions, just as he can't taste coffee? I'm thinking of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, and the

Spoiler: HPMoR

Show

"solution" to the problem of the lich-like Voldemort by Obliviating him.

Well, Libris Mortis has a lot of undead with potions in their statblocks. Moreover, page 141 has this line:

Incorporeal creatures also can’t benefit from magical effects that require physical contact or manipulation of objects, from a bull’s strength spell to a potion of invisibility.

This is talking about incorporeal undead, so it's plausible that this implies corporeal undead could.

Also there aren't any rules explicitly forbidding it, last I checked.

[pyrefiend]

And I didn't take a shoot, I took like 4 or 5, you just don't like any of them, and that's why I stopped,

For what it's worth I've been keeping up with the thread and I haven't seen you give any suggestions other than the recent one: "we need your help to beat Xykon".

You have said several times that they should say "Anything, just anything, just try". But to me, at least, it's not really clear what you have in mind.

[dancrilis]

For what it's worth I've been keeping up with the thread and I haven't seen you give any suggestions other than the recent one: "we need your help to beat Xykon".

You have said several times that they should say "Anything, just anything, just try". But to me, at least, it's not really clear what you have in mind.

I imagine a few questions they might ask would be 'why are you attacking us?', 'what do you want?', 'are you working for Xykon?', 'should we retreat and kill that beholder?' etc.

The Order know next to nothing about Serini they might be inclined to try and find something out.

[RatElemental]

I don’t think you specifically need to be worshiped to become a god in D&D. Pretty sure there are canonical examples of that in the lore.

It... depends on the setting. Though by far my favorite apotheosis is the one god from pathfinder who just got drunk, took a drunken bet to attempt to become a god, and then succeeded. And also had no idea how he did it after he sobered up.

[bunsen_h]

Well, Libris Mortis has a lot of undead with potions in their statblocks. Moreover, page 141 has this line:

This is talking about incorporeal undead, so it's plausible that this implies corporeal undead could.

Also there aren't any rules explicitly forbidding it, last I checked.

It occurred to me that my comment about Xykon was a (minor) spoiler for Start of Darkness, so I fixed that. Would you please do the same for your quotation of my message?

The thing about Xykon is that he's a skeleton; liquids just flow through him, unlike what would happen with most corporeal undead.

[ziproot]

Minrah Elle Shaleshoe

Oops.

Also, slight nitpick; Greyview and Oona are plussed-up by the entire bugbear village.
Gallows humor is a thing for any prisoner, so I think his time as a PoW may have added a few skill points to the Tell Joke skill.

OK, fair. If I'm including the cat I guess I can include the bugbear village. So then the battle is more of a tossup, mechanically speaking.

Serini would not have lifted a finger to interfere with Xykon if he had captured Soon's Gate - she sees protecting her gate from destruction as her job, she does not see stopping Xykon as her job.

Oh right, the non-interference clause that nobody followed (not even Soon's paladins once the gate was destroyed). There could be more threats, after all. But if Team Evil decides to go that route, it's the same outcome as if they get the gate. I know Serini said she's fine with that (as she doesn't know the Gods will try to destroy the world once the ritual starts). However, why not just give the gate to them? That means Team Evil will stop trying to kill a bunch of monsters who she likely cares about. And in that case, having the Order expose some of the defences won't be a problem, which is the worst case scenario of the ambush, in Serini's eyes. Unless she wasn't listening when they said they didn't want to go near the last gate, which now that I think about it, might have been the case.
EDIT: Wait a second, two gates are better than one. In that case, why not say that is her plan? Just tell them that her plan is to get them to remake one of the other gates.

Not specfically a teleport trap but that and any other misdirection that he falls for - if enough time is spent he might decide on a different path, one that leaves her and her gate alone.

So in other words, Xykon can be beaten, which is not what Serini said. If she meant "in a head on fight," why didn't she just add "in a straight fight?" That would definitely get the attention of the Order.

In other words, if Haley is getting criticized for not saying the right thing, why isn't Serini saying the right thing?

Also, I'm seconding whoever suggested that the MITD is Belkar who got hit with the amnesia potion, with time travel being involved.

[RatElemental]

It occurred to me that my comment about Xykon was a (minor) spoiler for Start of Darkness, so I fixed that. Would you please do the same for your quotation of my message?

The thing about Xykon is that he's a skeleton; liquids just flow through him, unlike what would happen with most corporeal undead.

Potions are basically just magic contained in a bottle anyway. How can Xykon drink one? Magic.

[Kornaki]

I imagine a few questions they might ask would be 'why are you attacking us?', 'what do you want?', 'are you working for Xykon?', 'should we retreat and kill that beholder?' etc.

The Order know next to nothing about Serini they might be inclined to try and find something out.

Serini Toormuck! We're here to discuss your long distance sending rates. We noticed you don't pick up sendings, and given your remote location we can guess it's to avoid roaming charges. Sign up with V-rizon, and save up to 60% on all telepathic long distance communication!

[Vikenlugaid]

For what it's worth I've been keeping up with the thread and I haven't seen you give any suggestions other than the recent one: "we need your help to beat Xykon".

You have said several times that they should say "Anything, just anything, just try". But to me, at least, it's not really clear what you have in mind.

We are here to protect the gate.
We are here to stop Xykon.
If Xykon wins the gods will destroy the world.
We need to turn the goblin on our side to stop the Snarl for good.

And I am not the one who was sending messages for her and, logically, should have short sentences well prepared to gain her trust. I mean, what did they plan to tell her in that conversations? Would they just say "listen to us!" many times?

[ziproot]

Serini Toormuck! We're here to discuss your long distance sending rates. We noticed you don't pick up sendings, and given your remote location we can guess it's to avoid roaming charges. Sign up with V-rizon, and save up to 60% on all telepathic long distance communication!

Congratulations, you made me laugh. You're on level with O-Chul.

[Peelee]

Serini Toormuck! We're here to discuss your long distance sending rates. We noticed you don't pick up sendings, and given your remote location we can guess it's to avoid roaming charges. Sign up with V-rizon, and save up to 60% on all telepathic long distance communication!

Best answer by far.

[pyrefiend]

We are here to protect the gate.
We are here to stop Xykon.

She told them that she knows who they are, and they told her that they're on her side. So it seems reasonable for the Order to believe that Serini already knows these things.

If Xykon wins the gods will destroy the world.
We need to turn the goblin on our side to stop the Snarl for good.

We know that this information might stop Serini in her tracks, but how would the Order know? They have no idea why she is attacking them. I don't think it we can reasonably expect the Order to have figured out what is motivating Serini's attack.

Imagine you're going to meet someone whom you know only by description. You think of them as a potential friend, and certainly not as a potential enemy. But when you go to meet them they attack you. If it were me in those circumstances, I don't think I could do much better than shout stuff like "please stop!", "I'm not your enemy!", "why are you doing this?", etc. I dunno. It's not a perfect analogy. But I think it makes sense for the Order to be pretty baffled about everything that's happening.

[dancrilis]

If Xykon wins the gods will destroy the world.

There is no evidence of that.

The Nothern Gods know that if the destroy the world Hel wins - and they seem to not want that.
The Southern Gods likely don't care about Hel but are still a 'no' vote even after losing Azure City.
The Western Gods we know little about but might have voted 'yes' because of the recent gate activity - and if they found out that the last Gate was safe might change the vote.

It is entirely possible that the northern gods view dealing the the Dark One or dealing with Xykon as preferable to dealing with Hel.
It is entirely possible that the southern gods view dealing the the Dark One or dealing with Xykon as preferable to ending the world.
It is entirely possible that the western gods view dealing the the Dark One or dealing with Xykon as preferable to ending the world.

Xykon winning might save everyone.

[pyrefiend]

There is no evidence of that.

Xykon "winning" means that he and Redcloack use the ritual which will allow the Snarl to threaten the gods in their homes. Surely there's no way they'd allow that, even if preventing it means giving a ton of dwarf souls to Hel?

[ziproot]

There is no evidence of that.

The Nothern Gods know that if the destroy the world Hel wins - and they seem to not want that.
The Southern Gods likely don't care about Hel but are still a 'no' vote even after losing Azure City.
The Western Gods we know little about but might have voted 'yes' because of the recent gate activity - and if they found out that the last Gate was safe might change the vote.

It is entirely possible that the northern gods view dealing the the Dark One or dealing with Xykon as preferable to dealing with Hel.
It is entirely possible that the southern gods view dealing the the Dark One or dealing with Xykon as preferable to ending the world.
It is entirely possible that the western gods view dealing the the Dark One or dealing with Xykon as preferable to ending the world.

Xykon winning might save everyone.

The gods have ended tons of worlds and many of them don't like the Dark One. The Western gods voted yes, the Northern gods are deadlocked, and the Southern gods voted no but we don't know the margin. It is possible, yes, but unlikely.
Evidence: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html and next page.
EDIT: Also, the Southern gods aren't too happy with Gobbotopia.

[mjasghar]

Presumably all the northern gods know about the Bet. In which case them being deadlocked seems foolish because it will be their pantheon being dominated by Hel in the next world created due to the dwarves soul influx.
This seems to be plot error

[Peelee]

Presumably all the northern gods know about the Bet. In which case them being deadlocked seems foolish because it will be their pantheon being dominated by Hel in the next world created due to the dwarves soul influx.
This seems to be plot error

Inasmuch as Odin "dominates" the pantheon in this world. Hel would become the most powerful of the Northern gods, sure, but I don't think the pantheon sees that as major as you do. And, even if they did, the deadlock is not concerned at all with how Hel comes out of it. So I don't see at all how this is a "plot error".

[mjasghar]

Well I can’t see Tyr wanting Hel in charge of the pantheon yet he votes for destruction

[danielxcutter]

The gods are not a homogeneous lump, y'know.

[RatElemental]

Well I can’t see Tyr wanting Hel in charge of the pantheon yet he votes for destruction

The other gods voted the way they did before Hel pointed out the bet. If the choice is between Hel being head honcho and getting nuked by a crazy goblin, I think there would be a lot more yeas.

[Liquor Box]

1- Haley doesn't need to guess that in less than a minute, they know Xykon has Serini's diary since long ago, the logical asumption is that she have met him.
And I didn't take a shoot, I took like 4 or 5, you just don't like any of them, and that's why I stopped, for me is clear that Haley could be trying far better. And it's only your opinion that my suggestions aren't better than what Haley said.

How does the Order know that Xykon has Serini's diary?

2- Who said they need Serini's help more than Serini need theirs? And what kind of answer? The Order totally need any help they could get, that's a fact.

And Serini isn't arrogant to reject help, she is being helped by several monsters, she just TRUST those monsters. That's not arrogance, she just doesn't trust the Order and she doesn't have any reason to do it for now.

And the Order doesn't (or at least shouldn't) trust Serini. If you are right that they know Xykon has her diary, that's one reason. If they don't know that, her attacking them is another.