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2021-12-01, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-01, 03:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Thanks
I kind of agree that neither needs the other. Although you make the point that the two groups might potentially hinder the other, and that would be less likely if they worked together.
I don't actually think Serini has done any of those things yet. Few of their resources are gone, an incapacitations are easily fixed, they are within a one round walk from each other, and now they've found the paladins.
Serini's tactic to stop interference seems to be to try and capture and manacle the Order without really talking to them. Given that the Order appear to be winning, do you think they should manacle Serini without talking to her first?
Ultimately they have different goals:
Serini: Protect Gate.
Order: Defeat Xykon.
Serini would likely like Xykon defeated and the Order would likely like the Gate protected, but the Order are willing to risk the Gate's defences to defeat Xykon and Serini is willing to allow Xykon to win providing the Gate is protected.
- Serini thinks the gate is safest if Xykon is not directly opposed even though that might lead to him seizing the gate and all the risks to the gate that entails.
- The Order thinks the gate is safest is Xykon is attacked, with the risk that the gate gets damaged in the conflict.
Although I don't think they need Serini, i agree that they'd have better chance if with her onside if they could get her to behave. Not so much for her abilities (although Sunny could be very useful), but because her knowledge of the dungeons could help with an ambush.
Isn't there a mishap chance with teleport. So that like, once in every twenty or so times they end up in the wrong place?
What are you surprised that people are questioning. That the Order should have guessed that they would be attacked by Serini?Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-12-01 at 03:29 AM.
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2021-12-01, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
The shapphire guard are their allies now, but at first they were hostile to them either.
Well, and Girard's family were dead but if not I would bet hostility too, in fact, the only contact they had with Girard's, the recording at the desert, was hostile.
They have never met one gate defender who wasn't hostile at first, so the real question is: why the hell wouldn't the Order expect that?Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-12-01 at 03:51 AM.
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2021-12-01, 04:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
And they could only have found that trap with information from the Sapphire Guard, so, yep, definitely hostile. (Meaning Elan needn't have worried about Nale after all.)
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2021-12-01, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-12-01, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Since Roy can lean through the trap and see the other side, it's more like a portal than a teleport.
It's an epic-level trap, possibly using an epic-level spell, and it is evidently very effective against non-rogues.This ... is my signature finishing move!
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2021-12-01, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Honestly, the fact that you don’t need a single rank in Spellcraft to disarm even the most potent of magical traps is… annoying. At the very least it’d make sense for Spellcraft, if not actual casting, gave bonuses to disarming magic traps for example.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-12-01, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Bit like finding exploits in a video game. Pure trial and error can find them sometimes, and if multiple games use the same engine those might carry over, but being a programmer, especially one who has access to decompiled code, will make finding them easier.
But at that point you can just modify the game itself to do whatever you want anyway, so most exploits are found by trial and error by nonprogrammers.
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2021-12-01, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2021
Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Disagree. D&D did its absolute best to completely destroy the niche of the rogue/thief class when it advanced from 2e to 3e and beyond. The last thing needed is to make it so they have to cross class into a skill they don't need just to do one of their few remaining abilities of disarming traps. Unless you are into the "this game is all about the wizard and everyone else are just henchmen" mode of play that 3e and later propogated.
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2021-12-01, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
That’s why I said bonus, and not requirement. Synergy bonuses are a thing, after all. Spellcraft already gives a +2 bonus to UMD checks involving scrolls IIRC, why not a +2 bonus to Disable Device when disabling magic traps?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-12-01, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-01, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Cross-class skill ranks also feel silly. Not so much the cap, more about needing twice the skill points.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-12-01, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
That's true, but I don't think you understand the difference. By moving the "not" into the quotes it no longer affects the "anyone" or "everyone".
#2 is the stronger statement and would be refuted by it (greater resurrection) being cast by anybody ever.
#1 could only be refuted by every single character being able to cast it on demand. And that ship has sailed because Haley was unable to get it cast once.
That's a criticism of the setting, not any particular character or event.
The same criticism could be levelled at almost every D&D dungeon.The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2021-12-01, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-01, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-01, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-01, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2021-12-01, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
It's true that it a common trope within DnD adventures where the monsters leading up to the boss fight make the party stronger for the boss fight.
But that doesn't change the fact that there's a pretty clear choice between launching one big assault on Xykon, or leaving him be to fight a few monsters every day. And one of the downsides of the second option is that it makes him more powerful.
This is exacerbated because Xykon so rarely gets experience ordinarily, but Serini has gathered up some super strong monsters and placed them in a well ordered shooting gallery for him. She's even arranged transport, so he doesn't have to take travel time moving between dungeons.
Yeah, Xykon may have got experience if he had beaten the paladin ghosts, but that was their do or die defence which actually had a shot of stopping Xykon, rather than a seemingly unending experience tap.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-12-01 at 03:13 PM.
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2021-12-01, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2021-12-01, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Well by that logic we cannot criticise any character in the comic for anything. Or in any media for that matter.
My perspective, and I think a pretty common one, is that you can critique the decisions of fictional characters, despite there being an author guiding their choices.
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2021-12-01, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-01, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2021-12-01, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, I'm not sure I follow you. I accept that it is often the case in DnD setting to set up a series of encoutners to make the PCs strong before they meet the boss. This strip followed that pattern in Dorukon's dungeon.
But each of the gate defenders still has the choice (accepting that the Author makes their choices for them) whether to supply a stream of beatable monsters, or defend the gate in a different way. As far as we've seen, Serini is the only one who chose to provide the stream of monsters.
I'm not really overly critical of Serini for that choice. As you note, it's a common dungeon design principle, and I'm sure her monsters would have defeated lots of parties that are weaker than Xykon. But the fact remains that the status quo is increasing Xykon's power and making the prospects of the Order defeating him now, or some future group from displacing him if he doesn't destroy the world first, lower.
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2021-12-01, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2021-12-01, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-02, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
I think you just stepped on the most important points; Redcloak and The Dark One.
Problem is, you have it all wrong. Redcloak does not intend for Xykon to blackmail the Gods. He intends to give the gate to the Dark One who can blackmail the gods or destroy them as he sees fit. We've known Redcloak has been planning to betray Xykon for a long time now. Unfortunately, Serini does not have that information.
If Team Evil seizes the Gate, it won't end with Xykon ruling the world. It will end with the either the Gods destroying it, or the Snarl destroying the Gods. Because I don't think the Dark One truly cares about his people anymore. He just wants revenge.
In summary, Serini is not playing with a full deck, and so she can't be fully blamed here.
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2021-12-02, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-12-02, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
That's a theory which is wildly popular for some reason that I fail to understand and one, at that, with which I'm absolutely fed up. However many times it may get proposed, the thing is, it's canonically wrong:
[Emphases mine.]
So no, what you present as one of the only two possible outcomes of Team Evil seizing the Gate is not a possible outcome at all (I'd also argue that the other isn't as likely as you'd have it either, but that's beside the point). If that was "the real plan", it would achieve nothing: Big Purple would kill a couple gods, tops, and then (indirectly) himself and he knows that.
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2021-12-02, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
Oh, I think I know why the "TDO is going to kill everyone" is seemingly popular; because that means Redcloak is WrongTM.
Note that this isn't necessarily about the... controversial positions about Redcloak's stance; as a villain and antagonist there is a fairly large expectation that he's going to be defeated both philosophically and physically. Plus, "actually has some well-meaning intentions but was used by a superior who doesn't" isn't an uncommon trope either, so without Rich's clarification it wouldn't be an unreasonable conclusion.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2021-12-02, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread
The trick is to get Serini to believe that.
Not so much for her abilities (although Sunny could be very useful), but because her knowledge of the dungeons could help with an ambush.
The 5e rogue does OK.
Not just a trope, but an expectation of the genre. "Ding" you leveled up is a core piece of D&D's level based game system.
This is exacerbated because Xykon so rarely gets experience ordinarily, but Serini has gathered up some super strong monsters and placed them in a well ordered shooting gallery for him. She's even arranged transport, so he doesn't have to take travel time moving between dungeons.
I find it best not to criticize characters, for the most part. The characters can only do what the writer crafts them to do.
My perspective, and I think a pretty common one, is that you can critique the decisions of fictional characters, despite there being an author guiding their choices.
Fair.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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