OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[Metastachydium]

Wait, what?

Dorukan and Lirian kept up their relationship; Girard kept in touch with Serini; Serini might have also spied on other Gates.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, Dorukan literally left a hole in his uberplot spell so he could summon Lirian and Girard was in contact with Serini, so...

Edit: Half-dragon paragon pseudonatural swordsage'd.

[BloodSquirrel]

I mean, the Order was literally planning to go to Girard's Gate before they learned about the upcoming attack on Azure City, so...

The issue is that what they were "planning on" doing can't be used to justify why X action had Y consequences. Shojo was willing to interfere with the other gates, and he recruited the Order to do so, but he never actually did it because other events intervened. Afterwards, he was dead and the Order was free to act on their own initiative.

You can go and change Shojo's dialog to say that he's explicitly forbidding the Order from going to Girard's gate and it doesn't change the plot. His gate still gets attacked, he dies, the gate gets blown up, and the Order is no longer under his command. They say "Okay, what's next?" and decide to go onto Girard's gate.

[Hurkyl]

Also literally none of the other Scribblers kept the oath at all, so I don't see why Shojo is to blame any more than them when he wasn't even one of the people who originally swore it.

To be fair, the agreement was to defuse a conflict between Soon and Girard+Dorukan, insofar as Shojo's retelling is illustrated. And as far as we know the other Scribblers haven't had anything to do with Azure city between then and the destruction of Soon's gate.

[Peelee]

Girard kept in touch with Serini;

Ehhhh. He set a trap that would let her know whey it went off. Theres nothing to indicate that he did anything beyond that, it was strictly one-way communication, it s intended only to let her know that another party was actively trying to reach his Gate...

I'm inclined to give Girard a pass on that (if on nothing else).

[Fyraltari]

Ehhhh. He set a trap that would let her know whey it went off. Theres nothing to indicate that he did anything beyond that, it was strictly one-way communication, it s intended only to let her know that another party was actively trying to reach his Gate...

I'm inclined to give Girard a pass on that (if on nothing else).

He had to get in touch with her to make the wager in the first place.

Edit: and one of them would have to visit to pay up/collect their winnings.

[danielxcutter]

Also Girard is an arse and would probably break the oath specifically to spite Soon, if my reading of him is right.

[Metastachydium]

He had to get in touch with her to make the wager in the first place.

Edit: and one of them would have to visit to pay up/collect their winnings.

It's not entirely clear if Serini was part of the wager or not.

Ehhhh. He set a trap that would let her know whey it went off. Theres nothing to indicate that he did anything beyond that, it was strictly one-way communication, it s intended only to let her know that another party was actively trying to reach his Gate...

I'm inclined to give Girard a pass on that (if on nothing else).

Even going with the least permissive reading, that's still breaking the oath, though.

Also Girard is an arse and would probably break the oath specifically to spite Soon, if my reading of him is right.

Yep, that's sounds like him.

[bunsen_h]

He had to get in touch with her to make the wager in the first place.

Edit: and one of them would have to visit to pay up/collect their winnings.

It wouldn't have to be a visit in person; a messenger would do. But I agree with your main point.

[Peelee]

He had to get in touch with her to make the wager in the first place.

Edit: and one of them would have to visit to pay up/collect their winnings.

There is no indication that she was part of the pool.

Even going with the least permissive reading, that's still breaking the oath, though.

I never did he didn't. I said I was willing to give him a pass on it; so far as we know, he never went to, spied on, or cared and about anyone else's Gate. He, at the earliest possibly time, set up a trap which happened to let Serini know if it was triggered. That's it. It's effectively the same thing as the device that lets them know if another gate has fallen, except with a false location and only targeting the neutral party who can't up with the idea in the first place.

Of all people, Girard was the second best at keeping to the agreement in spirit, if not exactly in letter, which is why I'm willing to give him a pass in it. Which is interesting, given how he was intensely paranoid and a colossal ass.

Also, let's not forget that Soon kept to the agreement perfectly.

[Metastachydium]

Of all people, Girard was the second best at keeping to the agreement in spirit, if not exactly in letter, which is why I'm willing to give him a pass in it. Which is interesting, given how he was intensely paranoid and a colossal ass.

That's actually pretty funny, when you put it that way.

Also, let's not forget that Soon kept to the agreement perfectly.

And, um, who said he didn't?

[Wraithfighter]

There is no indication that she was part of the pool.

Er, while you could argue that the text in #695 doesn't explicitly state that Serini was a part of the pool, the grammar of it certainly does seem to imply, or rather indicate that she was. Could just be pronoun inconsistency, English is really good at that, but at the very least we should consider it equally likely that she was as wasn't involved in the betting pool unless it gets stated elsewhere.

Besides, she's a rogue, why wouldn't she be up for a semi-friendly wager with a guy that she has a bit of a crush on (as indicated by her diary)? And we don't know what she wagered on, could very well she bet on Soon holding to his oath because she understood Paladins better than Girard.

[Peelee]

Er, while you could argue that the text in #695 doesn't explicitly state that Serini was a part of the pool, the grammar of it certainly does seem to imply, or rather indicate that she was. Could just be pronoun inconsistency, English is really good at that, but at the very least we should consider it equally likely that she was as wasn't involved in the betting pool unless it gets stated elsewhere.

What's inconsistent? Girard refers to "Serini and us". He clearly considers his own faction to be a plurality, and so saying "we have a pool" does not give any indication whatsoever whether Serini is a part of it or not.

[danielxcutter]

Shojo technically did, but Soon didn't.

Which goes to show how utterly stupid Girard was about Soon, because Soon's literal bloody class features prevented what he assumed Soon would do even if Soon had ever considered it. He called Soon a coward but paladins are literally immune to fear effects.

[Larsaan]

Honestly, Shojo's mistake wasn't breaking the oath, it was sending Miko. Like 95% of the bad stuff that happened as a result of it would have been avoided or mitigated if he'd sent literally any other paladin.

Well that, and blabbing about all the underhanded things he did in a room WITH OPEN DOORS. Honestly, that was such an amateur move that someone had to have rolled a 1 somewhere.

[BloodSquirrel]

Honestly, Shojo's mistake wasn't breaking the oath, it was sending Miko. Like 95% of the bad stuff that happened as a result of it would have been avoided or mitigated if he'd sent literally any other paladin.

Well that, and blabbing about all the underhanded things he did in a room WITH OPEN DOORS. Honestly, that was such an amateur move that someone had to have rolled a 1 somewhere.

Arguably, his mistake was pretending to be insane so that he could do things behind the SG's back. That fits much more with the notion of "This can obviously go horribly wrong, even if the exact way it goes wrong is hard to predict".

[Metastachydium]

Honestly, Shojo's mistake wasn't breaking the oath, it was sending Miko. Like 95% of the bad stuff that happened as a result of it would have been avoided or mitigated if he'd sent literally any other paladin.

True, after a fashion, but then: pretty much any other paladin would have had problems arresting the Order for weakening the fabric of the universe.

[Vikenlugaid]

Dorukan and Lirian kept up their relationship; Girard kept in touch with Serini; Serini might have also spied on other Gates.

But they didn't interfere in the defense of the others gates at all, as long as we know at least.
It's never told that the promise means more than that.

And if Soon didn't never see any of the others it was maybe cause he was apparently "Miko Style" at social relations, since his wife died at least.

[hamishspence]

Arguably, his mistake was pretending to be insane so that he could do things behind the SG's back. That fits much more with the notion of "This can obviously go horribly wrong, even if the exact way it goes wrong is hard to predict".

Keep in mind that a major reason why he pretended to be insane for the last 6 or so years (Mr Scruffy is 6 and it makes sense that he bought Mr Scruffy specifically for the "talks to his cat" form of feigning insanity) is to avoid being assassinated.

[Metastachydium]

But they didn't interfere in the defense of the others gates at all, as long as we know at least.
It's never told that the promise means more than that.

They swore an oath to the effect of "we are done with each other". Also, as Daniel pointed out, Dorukan actively weakened the defenses of his own Gate to accomodate Lirian.

[dancrilis]

Also literally none of the other Scribblers kept the oath at all,

Debatable.
The agreement was 'No interference in the other four gates' then there were tags about what interference was 'checking in visits, spying'.

There is no indication that Lirian and Dorukan's relationship involved any interaction on gate protection, nor that Girard or Soon interferenced with anothers gate.
Serini might have spied or might have heard the details from Vaarsuvius's many sendings or overheard the details when spying on Redcloak and Xykon ... we don't know.

...so I don't see why Shojo is to blame any more than them when he wasn't even one of the people who originally swore it.

One of the things that Soon seemingly did was destroy all records he could find regarding the Gates likely on the knowledge that if none knew about the gates or could read about the gates that secrecy was the best protection for his own - this seemed to work well, had he encountered Xykon's library he perhaps wouldn't have had a problem.
Shojo undermined that by telling an adventuring party about them, which lead to an evil adventuring party finding out about them which lead to fiends finding out about them etc - he delibrately undermined the best protection that the gates had (that nobody knew about them), and did so as part of what his oath called active interference namely to setup a 'checking in visit' regarding the Serini's and Girard's Gate.

His choice to break his oath to cause interference is his fault so the negative consequences of that choice rest with him - that includes the Fiends finding out about the Gates (which leads to the killing of the Draketooths - unforeseeable though that might be), and it includes The Order breaking Girard's Gate.

[Fyraltari]

Keep in mind that a major reason why he pretended to be insane for the last 6 or so years (Mr Scruffy is 6 and it makes sense that he bought Mr Scruffy specifically for the "talks to his cat" form of feigning insanity) is to avoid being assassinated.

But that's because he preferred to be the "scheming" kind of ruler rather than the straight one. Assassination attempts kind of come with the job, yet most kings didn't feel the need to feign insanity. Especially not to their close relatives like Hinjo who he raised as a son.

Hell, even if Xykon had never shown up, Hinjo would have had to deal with unruly nobles used to not answer to a higher authority, which is a **** move on Shojo's part.

[Wraithfighter]

What's inconsistent? Girard refers to "Serini and us". He clearly considers his own faction to be a plurality, and so saying "we have a pool" does not give any indication whatsoever whether Serini is a part of it or not.

More ambiguity than inconsistency, sorry, can be bad at phrasing things at time.

Also #698 has the Order assuming, without being contradicted anywhere, that the Betting Pool could well include Serini.

It's ambiguous, at worst, that Serini didn't take part in the betting pool, it's not been stated anywhere.

Also... it'd made for a good moment in the future. Haley mockingly asking Serini how long she bet on Soon coming after them, and Serini either outright refuting that she wagered on such a thing...

...or, perhaps, saying "I bet on never, because I knew Soon never would", to emphasize that she's not the same as Girard.

[danielxcutter]

Serini certainly does seem disillusioned with Girard compared to at first.

[dancrilis]

Hell, even if Xykon had never shown up, Hinjo would have had to deal with unruly nobles used to not answer to a higher authority, which is a **** move on Shojo's part.

I am not sure it was, Hinjo would likely have just dealt with then differently - to take these quotes (somewhat cut off to highlight what I feel are the relevant parts).

If you take away the external threat of Xykon, the most likely outcome of Shojo's rule is that he dies (whether from Miko or old age), and the more Lawful Hinjo takes over. He reforms the system and the nobles either fall in line or get crushed by his much larger army. The only reason Kubota takes the risky actions he takes is because Hinjo has virtually no army anymore, and Kubota has no ancestral holdings to lose. It is a highly unusual vulnerability on Hinjo's part that certainly could not have been predicted by Shojo.

Further, this idea that Shojo "should have known" that his actions would lead to open rebellion is silly. They didn't. They led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take. This is the whole point behind his final lines: He has no regrets over his actions, because he did it all for his people at the possible expense of his own safety or liberty should his transgressions be discovered.

Yes, exactly. The nobles' objection was that playtime was over, not that Hinjo wasn't a viable leader. Absent the imminent threat of Xykon, there would have been a lot of grumbling and jockeying for position before all their hidden schemes that Shojo tolerated by pitting them against one another were systematically exposed and shut down. Even the first wave of ninjas sent in #414 only appeared because the nobles (mistakenly) thought they could save their own skins from Xykon with Hinjo out of the way.

In contrast, Azure City has a monarchy with lifetime rule. Hinjo is 23; he could easily rule for 50 more years like Shojo did. Look at the ages of the nobles in strip #414—Kubota is the youngest, and he's probably pushing 50. They simply aren't going to live to see the next ruler unless they take some sort of action. And then you throw in the invasion, and Hinjo's unwillingness to parley, and it seems like hey, maybe we should roll the dice on whoever Hinjo's successor would be. But you'll notice that once the invasion is over and everyone is on the boats, only Kubota (who is an Evil egomaniac) is still interested in overthrowing Hinjo. Probably because no one else wants to deal with the total cluster**** that the Azurite's situation has become.

Shojo and Hinjo might have dealt the the situation differently but Shojo's handling of it likely wouldn't have overly negatively impacted Hinjo's ability to handle it (or such is my reading of the above).

[Peelee]

Also #698 has the Order assuming, without being contradicted anywhere, that the Betting Pool could well include Serini.

What? That's pretty much the Order explicitly assuming that the betting pool didn't include Serini. They're assuming that whoever won is involved with Girard's Gate, is somewhere in the desert, and will be visiting the nearest desert city. None of which apply to Serini, who is presumably in the North Pole. I have no clue whatsoever how you're getting that the Order is assuming she's part of the pool there.

[Fyraltari]

I am not sure it was, Hinjo would likely have just dealt with then differently - to take these quotes (somewhat cut off to highlight what I feel are the relevant parts).


Shojo and Hinjo might have dealt the the situation differently but Shojo's handling of it likely wouldn't have overly negatively impacted Hinjo's ability to handle it (or such is my reading of the above).

That's fair, but that also furthers the point that feigning insanity was not the only option Shojo had, and it was extremely callous of him to make his nephew believe his beloved uncle was losing his mind.

[Wraithfighter]

What? That's pretty much the Order explicitly assuming that the betting pool didn't include Serini. They're assuming that whoever won is involved with Girard's Gate, is somewhere in the desert, and will be visiting the nearest desert city. None of which apply to Serini, who is presumably in the North Pole. I have no clue whatsoever how you're getting that the Order is assuming she's part of the pool there.

How about Halley's line of a Betting Pool implying more than two people, and the only two people at that point they were thinking about were Girard and Serini?

And how later on V brings up that this is a long-shot in the first place, and Roy agrees, while not specifically noting that Serini might've won the bet, instead just noting that it's better than no plan? Or how the main reason why their plan has any shot at all is that the winner of the betting pool is in fact a minor factor in there, that Girard having a group sizeable enough for a betting pool, and his own distaste towards Clerical sorts, means that he'd need to find resupply via likely mundane manners?

The logic in that scene is that they're all assuming that Girard was just talking about himself and Serini. Then V brings up "Serini and us" being informed, which indicates that Girard has a group. Then Haley reinforces that with the betting pool, Roy uses that as a jumping off point to note that they'd have to be near enough to a settlement for gold pieces to have any real value, and besides, they've got to eat food fairly regularly since Girard has a hate-on for religious folks...

...the wager going off now just slightly boosts the odds that they'll get lucky on the timing. That's it.

Again, standing by that it's ambiguous, at worst, that Serini is involved in the betting pool. Certainly not that it's certain that she wasn't. As I noted before, between her class as a Rogue and her apparent crush on Girard, it's not unreasonable that she would humor such a wager. In any case, it's certainly not definite.

[Peelee]

How about Halley's line of a Betting Pool implying more than two people, and the only two people at that point they were thinking about were Girard and Serini?

And how later on V brings up that this is a long-shot in the first place, and Roy agrees, while not specifically noting that Serini might've won the bet, instead just noting that it's better than no plan? Or how the main reason why their plan has any shot at all is that the winner of the betting pool is in fact a minor factor in there, that Girard having a group sizeable enough for a betting pool, and his own distaste towards Clerical sorts, means that he'd need to find resupply via likely mundane manners?

The logic in that scene is that they're all assuming that Girard was just talking about himself and Serini. Then V brings up "Serini and us" being informed, which indicates that Girard has a group. Then Haley reinforces that with the betting pool, Roy uses that as a jumping off point to note that they'd have to be near enough to a settlement for gold pieces to have any real value, and besides, they've got to eat food fairly regularly since Girard has a hate-on for religious folks...

...the wager going off now just slightly boosts the odds that they'll get lucky on the timing. That's it.

Again, standing by that it's ambiguous, at worst, that Serini is involved in the betting pool. Certainly not that it's certain that she wasn't. As I noted before, between her class as a Rogue and her apparent crush on Girard, it's not unreasonable that she would humor such a wager. In any case, it's certainly not definite.

V says that Girard has a group which does not include Serini, which prompts Haleys comment about a pool being multiple people, and Roy's immediate conclusion is that the people in the pool are all in Girard's dungeon.

At no point does anyone assume that Serini is involved in the pool, and they explicitly discount her being involved, since they expect whoever won to be going to the biggest city in the Western continent.

You can try to read it in a way that involves Serini being in the pool, thbut that requires one to actively ignore pretty much everything the Order says in that strip, so I fail to see why one would.

[Wraithfighter]

V says that Girard has a group which does not include Serini, which prompts Haleys comment about a pool being multiple people, and Roy's immediate conclusion is that the people in the pool are all in Girard's dungeon.

At no point does anyone assume that Serini is involved in the pool, and they explicitly discount her being involved, since they expect whoever won to be going to the biggest city in the Western continent.

You can try to read it in a way that involves Serini being in the pool, thbut that requires one to actively ignore pretty much everything the Order says in that strip, so I fail to see why one would.

If the betting pool is more than 2 people, odds are high that Serini's not the winner, just by virtue of probability. It's a safe assumption to make that Serini isn't a winner, because it's A: Highly probable, B: Immaterial to the larger point that Girard's group would need to go into cities anyway in order to get resupply, and C: Irrelevant because they're outright stating that this isn't a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination and they're doing it because it's literally the only plan they've got left.

And, with all due respect, please stop speaking so authoritatively about the phrasing involved here, especially when Haley outright states "A pool probably means more than two people", since there's only two people they were talking about before.

It would be in keeping of Girard and Serini's characters for her to be involved in the betting pool, and the comic doesn't explicitly state that she's not, and all I'm saying is that the comic is ambiguous on the subject, as well as pointing out why it might be interesting if the comic does have her involved in the pool. It might never come up, I might be wrong, but can't you just shrug and go "eh maybe" given all of that?