OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[Riftwolf]

Also Girard is an arse and would probably break the oath specifically to spite Soon, if my reading of him is right.

I figured him as being 'well fine! I didn't want to talk to you guys anyway! I'll build my OWN adventuring party! With blackjack! And disturbing connotations! In fact, forget the blackjack!'

[danielxcutter]

I figured him as being 'well fine! I didn't want to talk to you guys anyway! I'll build my OWN adventuring party! With blackjack! And disturbing connotations! In fact, forget the blackjack!'

I meant more like calling Serini rather than actively undermining the defenses of all the Gates but that works too.

[RatElemental]

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I could not disagree more with this. It was absolutely not a mistake. The mistake would he if they stayed together, which would probably have ended in Girard trying to murder Soon, among other possibilities. They clearly had irreconcilable differences, and staying together for the kids is almost always a terrible idea.

I'm not saying that the Gates were stronger defended alone than they were defended together. I'm saying it was not a mistake to split up. Things can be bad decisions without being mistakes. They made a bad decision (split up) over a worse decision (keep working together). They were playing a bad hand.

"Staying together for the kids" is absolutely the right choice when "the kids" is "the entire world" and "staying together" is "not murdering or sabotaging each other."

The fact that the scribblers couldn't put their differences aside, buck up and at least collaborate long enough to bolster each other's defenses before splitting up is one reason the gates so far have all fallen. There are no children here who will be traumatized by a generally hostile atmosphere. Just adults, who can either suck it up and play as a team for literally the sake of the world, or instead drop the ball. They chose the latter, because they'd rather pick it up and go home instead.

[Hurkyl]

Yes, because it was that or let Xykon get the Gate and then the world would have blown up one way or another.

And whoops! Turns out the dilemma was actually between "blow up the thing you were sworn to protect" and "let epic reinforcements take out Xykon".

I'm still leaning towards the opinion that the main reason the Sapphire Guard was not advised that they should not destroy the sapphire is simply that the idea the Sapphire Guard would willingly destroy the sapphire was unthinkable.

[danielxcutter]

Am I the only one who suspects the worst Scribbler was Girard?

[Hurkyl]

"Staying together for the kids" is absolutely the right choice when "the kids" is "the entire world" and "staying together" is "not murdering or sabotaging each other."

Except when it isn't.

The fact that the scribblers couldn't put their differences aside, buck up and at least collaborate long enough to bolster each other's defenses before splitting up is one reason the gates so far have all fallen. There are no children here who will be traumatized by a generally hostile atmosphere. Just adults, who can either suck it up and play as a team for literally the sake of the world, or instead drop the ball. They chose the latter, because they'd rather pick it up and go home instead.

Yeah. They should have gone through with killing the other Scribblers for the literal sake of the world, rather than cowardly accepting the cease-fire and dissolution plan!

</sarcasm>

[RatElemental]

Am I the only one who suspects the worst Scribbler was Girard?

You are not alone in that conclusion.

Except when it isn't.


Yeah. They should have gone through with killing the other Scribblers for the literal sake of the world, rather than cowardly accepting the cease-fire and dissolution plan!

</sarcasm>

Where did you get the idea that they should murder each other? I was saying they should have sucked it up and not done that, because the world itself was literally on the line.

[Hurkyl]

Where did you get the idea that they should murder each other? I was saying they should have sucked it up and not done that, because the world itself was literally on the line.

What they actually did was "not done that": you're the one insisting they stay in an arrangement that has already escalated to lethal conflict. And if one side doesn't have a clean victory, who knows what collateral damage could be done to the gates through protracted their infighting!

They chose a found a way to divide up the responsibility that didn't require them to stay in a lethal situation, so that each of them could focus on gate defense without distractions (although Serini seemingly had abdicated that role until recently). And it's not like working independently is strictly worse than if they were able to get along and work together, if the failure mode you're guarding against is "all of the gates get destroyed", since different, independent approaches are not likely to share the same weaknesses.

[RatElemental]

What they actually did was "not done that": you're the one insisting they stay in an arrangement that has already escalated to lethal conflict. And if one side doesn't have a clean victory, who knows what collateral damage could be done to the gates through protracted their infighting!

They chose a found a way to divide up the responsibility that didn't require them to stay in a lethal situation, so that each of them could focus on gate defense without distractions (although Serini seemingly had abdicated that role until recently). And it's not like working independently is strictly worse than if they were able to get along and work together, if the failure mode you're guarding against is "all of the gates get destroyed", since different, independent approaches are not likely to share the same weaknesses.

Yes, and the third option between splitting up and killing each other is recognizing the stakes, setting their differences aside, and working together anyway. The fact that they didn't to that is pretty likely the reason things have progressed to the point that the gods are thinking of pulling the plug and everything is hanging by a thread. The reason all of the gates have fallen so far is they all had weaknesses that none of the others did, and any other member of the scribble could have seen coming. At the very least if they had collaborated on their gate defenses they would all have been better off even if they went on to manage them on their own.

[Peelee]

Would you agree to the sentiment that their failure was their inability to work as a team?

Oh most definitely.

[Fyraltari]

Another point in their defavour is that it seems that the root cause of their disagreement was intense pride in their chosen field to the point of scorning the other's.

Am I the only one who suspects the worst Scribbler was Girard?

Well he's the only one we know of who tried to murder a(n ex-) teammate so, probably.

Unless it turns out Kraagor had some disturbing secrets or something.

[Hurkyl]

Yes, and the third option between splitting up and killing each other is recognizing the stakes, setting their differences aside, and working together anyway.

And what, pray tell, makes it plausible that they could come to such an arrangement, let alone carry it out effectively? This whole thing honestly sounds like pure idealism to me. And when the fate of the world is at stake, well isn't that the most important time to set aside one's pride in idealism and face the reality of the situation you're dealt?

I'm not going to say complete radio silence was the best way to work independently, but I think it pretty likely it's far better than if they pretended they could work as a cohesive group.

[Fyraltari]

And what, pray tell, makes it plausible that they could come to such an arrangement, let alone carry it out effectively? This whole thing honestly sounds like pure idealism to me. And when the fate of the world is at stake, well isn't that the most important time to set aside one's pride in idealism and face the reality of the situation you're dealt?

I'm not going to say complete radio silence was the best way to work independently, but I think it pretty likely it's far better than if they pretended they could work as a cohesive group.

I feel like there are degrees between "cohesive group" and "radio silence" that are being overlooked there. Lirian could have grown plant monsters for everybody's Gate. Girard could have set up traps for everybody's Gate. Dorukan could have put magic protections on everybody's Gate. I don't think Girard would have accepted a permanent retinue of paladins at his Gate but the others might have.

[Metastachydium]

recognizing the stakes, setting their differences aside, and working together anyway.

I mean, even Malack and Nale managed to kinda-sorta do that until after their objective could no longer be achieved.

[hamishspence]

Another point in their defavour is that it seems that the root cause of their disagreement was intense pride in their chosen field to the point of scorning the other's.

The first person to sneer at the others' fields was Soon, by dismissing magic because "it can be dispelled or disrupted", while exaggerating the power of his own, characterising paladin honor as "unbreakable". Soon is also scowling first, when Dorukan wasn't.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Well he's the only one we know of who tried to murder a(n ex-) teammate so, probably.

Unless it turns out Kraagor had some disturbing secrets or something.

Dorukan, rather than Girard, is the first to get accusatory about Soon's behaviour and his willingness to sacrifice his own allies.

So in that respect, Dorukan may actually be angrier at Soon than Girard was.

[BloodSquirrel]

I feel like there are degrees between "cohesive group" and "radio silence" that are being overlooked there. Lirian could have grown plant monsters for everybody's Gate. Girard could have set up traps for everybody's Gate. Dorukan could have put magic protections on everybody's Gate. I don't think Girard would have accepted a permanent retinue of paladins at his Gate but the others might have.

Just keeping an open line of communications would have made a big difference. Dorukan was under siege for a while. And they had even longer between that and Lirian's gate falling to do some kind of investigation and make some kind of preparations against whoever did it. And- as I've pointed out before- both Soon and Girard were already dead at this point. Did their personal animosity really need to be passed down to future generations?

Splitting up may have been the best idea at the point, but swearing an oath to never even so much as talk to each other again was ridiculously extreme, absolute, and final. It was a massive over-reaction.

"We have irreconcilable differences, I want a divorce! And a promise that you will literally never call or contact me in any way again! And we're splitting up the kids between us, and we aren't ever allowed to speak to the other child again either! And the kids have to swear and oath to never speak to each other, or let their kids ever meet!"

[danielxcutter]

Girard is a spiteful, paranoid hypocrite though. It seems it’s more a simmering hatred rather than the flare of anger Dorukan had.

And while Soon didn’t exactly word it well, I do wonder if Dorukan really did mess up a couple of times. I mean, this is the guy who left a gaping hole in his uberspell to have sex with his girlfriend.

[Frozenstep]

Some things are physically impossible.

Other things are emotionally impossible.

Working with someone explicitly wants you dead and is quite capable of it on a high-risk and delicate situation like this is...quite something. Even if you put aside your differences, can you ever be sure that they'll really put aside theirs? That they won't just kill you the moment there's a good chance?

The safe option in that situation is to wait until they let their guard down and kill them. Better one risky fight that you plan for and initiate, rather then waiting around for them to put together the same thing against you.

When mistrust runs that deep, how much can you really focus? Whenever they offer 'help' like with some monsters or runes, how can you be sure it's not part of some trap they'll spring on you later? How are you going to collaborate and put together the best possible defense when your goal isn't just to defend the gate, but also to defend yourself from your 'ally'?

Still, I'd expect at least some of the more friendly scribblers to work together, not sure what the story is there.

[Fyraltari]

The first person to sneer at the others' fields was Soon, by dismissing magic because "it can be dispelled or disrupted", while exaggerating the power of his own, characterising paladin honor as "unbreakable". Soon is also scowling first, when Dorukan wasn't.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html



Dorukan, rather than Girard, is the first to get accusatory about Soon's behaviour and his willingness to sacrifice his own allies.

So in that respect, Dorukan may actually be angrier at Soon than Girard was.

You seem to assume that little discussion was the only time they fought over whose specialty was best, but it seems more likely (at least to me) that this was an on-going argument that simmered throughout their entire career as a group, with the death of Kraagor and the debate about the Gates being the breaking-point.

Note Girard's joke about paladins having a stick up their arses in the previous page, Serini saying "they all think they know how to best defend the gates", Girard complaining about always being on mapmaking-duty or current Serini musing that pranking paladins never gets old. I think the two panels we got are more meant as a representation of the disagreement in general rather than the exten of it.

Also regarding who got angry at whom first (not that I think it matters), the previous page shows Girard blaming Soon during Kraagor's funeral and I don't see Soon scowling first. The unibrow seems to be his default, stoic expression.

[BloodSquirrel]

Girard is a spiteful, paranoid hypocrite though. It seems it’s more a simmering hatred rather than the flare of anger Dorukan had.

Let's not forget that we got an abbreviated version of the story from someone who wasn't there and only had access to one side of it. Not that anything in it was deliberately misleading (Soon didn't seen to aggrandize himself or villianize the others), but we shouldn't read too much into details which may be more generalized summary that literally true.

[danielxcutter]

I still find it darkly amusing at how utterly wrong Girard is about paladins - Soon was also in the range of the spell as well, he was willing to risk himself. Now, he may have tried to police the other members to hold up to his standards before and that might be part of the schism, but Girard’s reasoning is so screwy it makes Loki look like the Overgod of Honesty.

[Wintermoot]

I feel like there are degrees between "cohesive group" and "radio silence" that are being overlooked there. Lirian could have grown plant monsters for everybody's Gate. Girard could have set up traps for everybody's Gate. Dorukan could have put magic protections on everybody's Gate. I don't think Girard would have accepted a permanent retinue of paladins at his Gate but the others might have.

That's the exact moral of the story. The Scribbler's failure was in NOT working together. If they had worked together and each contributed to each gate, the gates would've been stronger. Because teamwork makes for dreamwork.

[BloodSquirrel]

Working with someone explicitly wants you dead and is quite capable of it on a high-risk and delicate situation like this is...quite something. Even if you put aside your differences, can you ever be sure that they'll really put aside theirs? That they won't just kill you the moment there's a good chance?

The safe option in that situation is to wait until they let their guard down and kill them. Better one risky fight that you plan for and initiate, rather then waiting around for them to put together the same thing against you.

That characterization of them is even more damning than the bad decision that it's intended to defend. Almost getting into one fight in a heated moment is one thing, but actively planning to kill each other was well beyond what we saw.

[Fyraltari]

That characterization of them is even more damning than the bad decision that it's intended to defend. Almost getting into one fight in a heated moment is one thing, but actively planning to kill each other was well beyond what we saw.

We saw Girard plant a bomb in a place he expected Soon to be.

[BloodSquirrel]

I still find it darkly amusing at how utterly wrong Girard is about paladins - Soon was also in the range of the spell as well, he was willing to risk himself. Now, he may have tried to police the other members to hold up to his standards before and that might be part of the schism, but Girard’s reasoning is so screwy it makes Loki look like the Overgod of Honesty.

Not to mention that his whole claim that Soon just wants to avenge his wife is nonsense- they're sealing the rifts, not killing the Snarl. It's the kind of non-sequitur that a bad internet debater resorts to when they don't have a serious counter-argument and try to pull the "NO, U!" card where it doesn't make any sense.

[Hurkyl]

I still find it darkly amusing at how utterly wrong Girard is about paladins - Soon was also in the range of the spell as well, he was willing to risk himself. Now, he may have tried to police the other members to hold up to his standards before and that might be part of the schism, but Girard’s reasoning is so screwy it makes Loki look like the Overgod of Honesty.

Does it still seem so screwy if, rather than the group of paladins we know and love from the main strip, you apply Girard's attitude towards the Sapphire Guard of the backstory? The ones that were on a mission to wipe out all worldwide record of everything connected to the rifts and genociding goblins in their efforts to eliminate the threat of the Crimson Mantle?

[BloodSquirrel]

We saw Girard plant a bomb in a place he expected Soon to be.

Only if Soon had violated his oath first. It was a (paranoid and misguided) defensive measure, not an opportunistic or aggressive attempt to assassinate him.

[Frozenstep]

That characterization of them is even more damning than the bad decision that it's intended to defend. Almost getting into one fight in a heated moment is one thing, but actively planning to kill each other was well beyond what we saw.

It's hard to tell exactly how things were in the moment, because we've only got crayons to go on, but it really does look like in that moment, they were heated enough to fight with the intention of killing. It's not just heat-of-the-moment either, it's what's been boiling up for years and they knew it.

I'm not saying they actively planned to kill each other (though, as mentioned, desert bomb...), but that if they tried to work together, they'd always be paranoid that the others would be planning to kill them. The trust is broken.

[danielxcutter]

Does it still seem so screwy if, rather than the group of paladins we know and love from the main strip, you apply Girard's attitude towards the Sapphire Guard of the backstory? The ones that were on a mission to wipe out all worldwide record of everything connected to the rifts and genociding goblins in their efforts to eliminate the threat of the Crimson Mantle?

I was talking about Girard calling Soon a coward.

[BloodSquirrel]

Does it still seem so screwy if, rather than the group of paladins we know and love from the main strip, you apply Girard's attitude towards the Sapphire Guard of the backstory? The ones that were on a mission to wipe out all worldwide record of everything connected to the rifts and genociding goblins in their efforts to eliminate the threat of the Crimson Mantle?

The SG has its faults, but the problem is that Girard has completely misidentified them. For whatever else you can say about them, they aren't cowards, and they don't take their oaths lightly. Also, Girard, of all people, shouldn't be balking at the idea of maintaining secrecy.