OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[TheNecrocomicon]

Thank you, Lien and O-Chul, for finally landing the point on Serini that I'm fairly sure we've all been waiting months for someone to make. Even if it really didn't make it into her mind.

Also, I'm getting serious Miracle Max vibes from Serini right now. Hopefully we soon get to, "If I do this thing you ask, Xykon suffers?" Haley: "Humiliations galore!"

"Good luck stormin' the arch-lich!"

"You think it'll work?"

"It'd take a miracle." "Bye-bye!"

[Souju]

I wonder if it's dawned on Serini that Xykon beat each of her friends and her ALONE, and that he only really beat Dorukan and Soon (the latter of whom she doesn't seem to be aware he "defeated") due to psychological warfare or pure unadulterated luck.

The grim irony being he's managed to defeat her by making her think those were all normal fights. She's thinking like Kraagor would rather than how a rogue would.

She also seems unaware that the Order themselves HAVE defeated Xykon before and the paladin she has chained to a wall came VERY close a second time.

She's so quick to jump to conclusions I can't help but wonder if she studied monk with Miko.

[DaOldeWolf]

Yeah, and? My question still stands - listen to what?

Everything! Everything they know that she doesnt. She doesnt have the bigger picture. A bigger picture that might change her point of view if she knew.

[Peelee]

Everything! Everything they know that she doesnt. She doesnt have the bigger picture. A bigger picture that might change her point of view if she knew.

Oh, OK, I must have missed the strip where they laid it all out for her. Unless, of course, they haven't done that yet, which is what I mean when I say "listen to what?" But you seem pretty sure that they have, so please, link me the strip that I clearly missed so we can be on the same page here.

[Xihirli]

O-Chul is so supportive

[DaOldeWolf]

Oh, OK, I must have missed the strip where they laid it all out for her. Unless, of course, they haven't done that yet, which is what I mean when I say "listen to what?" But you seem pretty sure that they have, so please, link me the strip that I clearly missed so we can be on the same page here.

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say:

And what chance has she given to listen to what they have to say?

At this point, you are going in circles. How are they going to get her to listen to them (and learnt what they know) if she doesnt stop fighting? Both the order and the paladins have already pointed out many times how they are there to speak with her. She just keeps pushing forward her plan of taking them of the board anyway. I think the order are the only ones putting any effort in at least trying to talk.

[Wraithfighter]

Yeah, and? My question still stands - listen to what?

The sound of her ambush getting foiled so badly she had to flee and even then it only bought her a few rounds of time?

Or Lien and O-Chul pointing out that, given how much she's underestimated the OOTS, that her estimates of their chances against Xykon need to be re-evaluated?

Again: Logic has nothing to do with any of this. Serini didn't come to this conclusion out of logic, she came to it out of fear. She believes that nothing, nothing at all, can stop Xykon. Logic will not win the day here, because it can't, there's no logical arguments that could work against someone so mired in terror as she is.

[Frozenstep]

It greatly amuses me that O-Chul is so appreciative of V's "rescue". Both because in the end it wasn't really V that was responsible for saving O-Chul, but also because it really was only because V jumped back into danger at his lowest point to try to save him that they got away, and it's nice to see that be appreciated.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Again: Logic has nothing to do with any of this. Serini didn't come to this conclusion out of logic, she came to it out of fear. She believes that nothing, nothing at all, can stop Xykon. Logic will not win the day here, because it can't, there's no logical arguments that could work against someone so mired in terror as she is.

"Irrationality: it's irrational!"

Reminds me of the real-life situation we have going on right now, whereby the more you push people to do something, even to benefit themselves and people they know, the more some people will dig in deeper and refuse to do it that much more vehemently simply because someone else is telling them to do it.

[Oromin]

The sound of her ambush getting foiled so badly she had to flee and even then it only bought her a few rounds of time?

Or Lien and O-Chul pointing out that, given how much she's underestimated the OOTS, that her estimates of their chances against Xykon need to be re-evaluated?

Again: Logic has nothing to do with any of this. Serini didn't come to this conclusion out of logic, she came to it out of fear. She believes that nothing, nothing at all, can stop Xykon. Logic will not win the day here, because it can't, there's no logical arguments that could work against someone so mired in terror as she is.

Not saying that Serini isn't making an emotional argument, she totally is, but I don't think being afraid of Xykon is illogical. Dude is scary.

[Crusher]

Does anyone have the Giant's quote on how its dumb to assume where you think the story is going and then complain how the story elements don't lead up to it, but rather you should look at the story elements and then guessing where the story is going to go? I've looked around but can't find it.

[Vikenlugaid]

Nice, Serini entrance was totally hilarious XD i feel weird that Serini is surprised of them enetering...

So well, Serini's point is absolutely right, Xykon beat Lirian and Dorukan who were probably the most powerful casters in the world, and he didn't even sweat fighting them. Yeah, is a bit of "defeatism"... but only because we know this is a parody story, because if this was real Xykon would win without any doubt.

Now what's gonna be? keep fighting Serini and force her to use more drastic (and lethal) methods? or just really really try to talk.

[Larsaan]

Now what's gonna be? keep fighting Serini and force her to use more drastic (and lethal) methods? or just really really try to talk.

I feel like you've got a few things backwards regarding who is pushing what...

[TheNecrocomicon]

So well, Serini's point is absolutely right, Xykon beat Lirian and Dorukan who were probably the most powerful casters in the world, and he didn't even sweat fighting them. Yeah, is a bit of "defeatism"... but only because we know this is a parody story, because if this was real Xykon would win without any doubt.

I'd say it's pretty inaccurate that "Xykon didn't break a sweat", he only beat Lirian after he got turned into a lich to overcome her countermeasures and a runaway forest fire devastated her allies.

As for Dorukan, he had to lure the guy out of his fortress/dungeon by pressing a specific berserk button, and only then did he crush Dorukan by brute force.

Then Soon's spirit nearly crushed both Xykon and Redcloak, though with martyred allies as (ultimately rather ineffectual) backup.

[Peelee]

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say

Sounds like you answered your own question, then:

The question is if she will finally listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.

I've gotta say, that was definitely the most vehement agreeing-with-me that I've encountered.

[dancrilis]

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say:

I believe that is something of Peelee's point (if I am reading them correctly).

You said:

The question is if she will finally listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.

Which implies that reason has already been laid out for why she should stop fighting.

Peelee replied with:

Listen to what? Nobody has said anything of substance to her yet.

Which implies that reason has not been laid out yet for why she should stop fighting.

You replied with:

And what chance has she given to listen to what they have to say?

Which seems to agree with Peelee's point that reason to stop fighting has not been laid out yet.

Now if you meant (bolding for added words):

The question is if she will finally stop and listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.

Then that is a different matter but not the quote that Peelee replied too.

[Peelee]

I believe that is something of Peelee's point (if I am reading them correctly).

You said:

Which implies that reason has already been laid out for why she should stop fighting.

Peelee replied with:

Which implies that reason has not been laid out yet for why she should stop fighting.

You replied with:

Which seems to agree with Peelee's point that reason to stop fighting has not been laid out yet.

Now if you meant (bolding for added words):

Then that is a different matter but not the quote that Peelee replied too.

Aye, exactly. I very much want them to get Serini to listen to them. But they're not there yet. They need to completely outlcass her, and while they've made a lot of headway, they still have a bit to go.

I'm hoping that Lein will be able to finish getting free and help, since it seems like there was a hint that might be happening. And, dare I hope, O-Chul might also get involved?

[Metastachydium]

Nice, Serini entrance was totally hilarious XD i feel weird that Serini is surprised of them enetering...

So well, Serini's point is absolutely right, Xykon beat Lirian and Dorukan who were probably the most powerful casters in the world, and he didn't even sweat fighting them. Yeah, is a bit of "defeatism"... but only because we know this is a parody story, because if this was real Xykon would win without any doubt.

Now what's gonna be? keep fighting Serini and force her to use more drastic (and lethal) methods? or just really really try to talk.

I feel like you've got a few things backwards regarding who is pushing what...

Yup. The only thing the Order is trying to force Serini to do is freakin' listen to them for a damn second. Unfortunately, Serini doesn't think they have anything useful to say (and frankly, she has little reason to suspect they were told stuff by literal gods), so she'll likely struggle to the bitter end. Let's hope she'll fail.

[DaOldeWolf]

Sounds like you answered your own question, then:
I've gotta say, that was definitely the most vehement agreeing-with-me that I've encountered.

Not sure what you mean here. I am really sorry but I dont understand the point you are trying to make.

I believe that is something of Peelee's point (if I am reading them correctly).

You said:

Which implies that reason has already been laid out for why she should stop fighting.

Peelee replied with:

Which implies that reason has not been laid out yet for why she should stop fighting.

You replied with:

Which seems to agree with Peelee's point that reason to stop fighting has not been laid out yet.

Now if you meant (bolding for added words):

Then that is a different matter but not the quote that Peelee replied too.

I think Peelee might be confusing my intent between posts. My original question is speculative of what will happen next in the comic.

The discussion diverted on whether its a good idea that she should stop fighting and finally listen what the order has to say. Yes, I think the order are doing the best to try to speak with her. Yes, I think she is stubbornly sticking to her plan beyond reason. Yes, I think it would benefit her to learnt what the order knows. I am still unsure if she will eventually listen though.

[b_jonas]

The irony is that they all died, and she [Serini lived. And now she has to succeed where the others failed.

It's only Lirian that failed. Soon lived to old age and was probably never defeated. Dorukan lived to old age too, sacrificed himself for a fight he thought would be worth it. His magical protection for the gate held for pretty long after his death. Redcloak and Xykon couldn't performed the ritual using that gate even though they were camped there for a long time.

... and what kind of crazy trick would have Serini for a rainy day ? :)

More monsters obviously.

Considering how close the last escape was the rating seems a tad optimistic. I don't see any friendly monsters with surprise abilities around to bail them out this time...

Serini brought a lot of monsters with her. You can even count Sunny as friendly. There's probably more where that came from. And some readers predict that another monster related to the MitD will be here in Serini's dungeon.

What world-building does the amnesia cauldron accomplish?

The MitD will down the whole cauldron, partly to save O-Chul, partly because she is always hungry and eats scrabble tiles and partly cooked vultures. That is how he ended up with a childish personality. Time travel is involved.

[Peelee]

Yup. The only thing the Order is trying to force Serini to do is freakin' listen to them for a damn second. Unfortunately, Serini doesn't think they have anything useful to say (and frankly, she has little reason to suspect they were told stuff by literal gods), so she'll likely struggle to the bitter end. Let's hope she'll fail.

Seconded. All of it.

It's only Lirian that failed. Soon lived to old age and was probably never defeated. Dorukan lived to old age too, sacrificed himself for a fight he thought would be worth it.

Eh, Dorukan didn't sacrifice himself, he fully believed he'd win. He was only not going for Xykon because he didn't know where Lirian's body/soul were. Once he knew, he went all out.

[Hurkyl]

It's only Lirian that failed. Soon lived to old age and was probably never defeated. Dorukan lived to old age too, sacrificed himself for a fight he thought would be worth it. His magical protection for the gate held for pretty long after his death. Redcloak and Xykon couldn't performed the ritual using that gate even though they were camped there for a long time.
More monsters obviously.

They all failed: the gates are destroyed. It was posthumous for Girard, Dorukan, and Soon, but it doesn't change the fact they failed. Was it posthumous for Lirian too? I dunno if she was killed before or after the gate was destroyed.

We know Girard and Soon set up defenses that would continue past their death. Ironically, despite their differences, their means were rather similar: forming an organization dedicated to continuing their legacy. But those failed. In fact, Soon's was directly responsible for the failure.

What was Dorukan's dunegon like before Xykon took it over? We know it was a stereotypical mid-level dungeon crawl after Xykon took it over, but I didn't get the impression it was a particularly hostile place prior to that... except, of course, from the epic mage living inside.

[ATHATH]

I'm a bit surprised that Haley wasn't able to come up with a better insult that "you totally suck, lady!"

[Fish]

Belkar drinks (or absorbs the power of) the whole lot, and becomes totally and permanently amnesic -- ceasing to be himself. After taking a deep breath, of course.

Yes. This is what I came here to say.

I think we know how Belkar Bitterleaf breathes his last … he forgets the horrible person that he was and becomes the slightly better person he how is.

Bonus points if he does this on purpose to save the others, a Good act.

[Wraithfighter]

Not saying that Serini isn't making an emotional argument, she totally is, but I don't think being afraid of Xykon is illogical. Dude is scary.

Sure, but it's gone past rational levels of fear (I shouldn't be up on this high ledge because it's really windy and the ground is a long way down) and into irrational levels of fear (I don't care if there's a massive barrier between me and the ledge just being this high up is a bad idea). Which is doubly a problem because she doesn't get that she's being irrational and self-destructive here, it's not just fear, she's terrified of Xykon, she thinks Xykon is outright unstoppable.

A logical debate will not fix this. Reasoned arguments will not sway her. She's too far gone down into the rabbit hole of outright terror in order to be swayed. Either there needs to be an emotional argument that hits at the root of her terror and helps her get past that, or they need to kick her ass for a while to get it through her thick skull that she's completely out of her gourd.

And the part member with decent diplomacy skills is having a staring contest with a Beholder right now.

...

Please, Rich, make that last part literal.

[CountDVB]

They all failed: the gates are destroyed. It was posthumous for Girard, Dorukan, and Soon, but it doesn't change the fact they failed. Was it posthumous for Lirian too? I dunno if she was killed before or after the gate was destroyed.

We know Girard and Soon set up defenses that would continue past their death. Ironically, despite their differences, their means were rather similar: forming an organization dedicated to continuing their legacy. But those failed. In fact, Soon's was directly responsible for the failure.

What was Dorukan's dunegon like before Xykon took it over? We know it was a stereotypical mid-level dungeon crawl after Xykon took it over, but I didn't get the impression it was a particularly hostile place prior to that... except, of course, from the epic mage living inside.

Granted, they only failed often because of large luck on part of Team Evil. Like with Redcloak managing to turn Xykon into a lich against Lirian. Or with Miko hitting the Sapphire literally a round before Soon finished off Xykon and and Redcloak.

Though given her nicknames for them, it looks like she cared for her two Neutral Good allies a fair bit.

[Peelee]

Sure, but it's gone past rational levels of fear (I shouldn't be up on this high ledge because it's really windy and the ground is a long way down) and into irrational levels of fear (I don't care if there's a massive barrier between me and the ledge just being this high up is a bad idea). Which is doubly a problem because she doesn't get that she's being irrational and self-destructive here, it's not just fear, she's terrified of Xykon, she thinks Xykon is outright unstoppable.

A logical debate will not fix this. Reasoned arguments will not sway her. She's too far gone down into the rabbit hole of outright terror in order to be swayed. Either there needs to be an emotional argument that hits at the root of her terror and helps her get past that, or they need to kick her ass for a while to get it through her thick skull that she's completely out of her gourd.

And the part member with decent diplomacy skills is having a staring contest with a Beholder right now.

...

Please, Rich, make that last part literal.

An emotional argument like, say, embodying what the Scribble could have been if they hadn't broken up? Because I gotta say, I like that idea.

[Metastachydium]

Granted, they only failed often because of large luck on part of Team Evil. Like with Redcloak managing to turn Xykon into a lich against Lirian.

Arguably, that one wasn't luck. It was something Lirian was not prepared to deal with, but Redcloak knew what he was doing and didn't succeed by accident.

[dancrilis]

Or with Miko hitting the Sapphire literally a round before Soon finished off Xykon and and Redcloak.

Soon just had his turn and so it was now Xykon's turn - which he seems to have used to pickup Redcloak and fly away, without Miko he could have done the exact same thing (although he might not have) - and he did this before Miko broke the gate.

Soon himself admits that he only might have ended Xykon's threat permanently.

[FireJustice]

Gosh, I really can't like Serini. I get it.

But here's the hope Xykon tear her apart for realsies this time.


I get it, I get it.
its he villain, he beat you badly, he beat your Wizard and Druid friends, full caster and stuff.
so the better idea is to make him win.

news flash lady, you are just a bag of party tricks, you cant even oppose the ones who are trying to oppose him. That's how weak you appear to be.