Is this too much for a Legendary NPC

[Smersh_23]

Hello...

I have a high magic campaign and was wondering if this legendary NPC is too much. The party is never suppose to fight her but you never know... She is from a different age when magic was stronger and mortals weren't limited to level 20. I do not want her to be undefeatable but also not killed in under three rounds by a normal non-optimized party. Any thoughts would be appreciated :)

Nilana, Daughter of Thribon.
Allegon High Mage, CG

AC: 18 HPs: 200 Speed: 30 Class: 5 High Mage
STR: 10 (0) Dex: 15 (+2) Con: 14 (+2) Int: 24 (+8) Wis: 18 (+4) Cha: 22 (+6)

Saving Throws: Dex: +2, Con: +2, Int: 18 Wis: +8, Cha: +1
Skills: Arcana +21, Perception +14, Persuasion +19, History: +21
Damage Resistances: magic, psychic, nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing (from stoneskin)
Condition Immunities: charm, frightened
Senses: mindsight/blindsight 30 ft., passive Perception 24
(mindsight = detect sentient mind)
Languages: Common, Allegon, Sylvan, Draconic, telepathy 200 ft.
Challenge 20 Proficiency Bonus: +7

Greater Mage Armor AC 18 (AC 16 + 2 Dex)

Spellcasting.

Nilana a 20th+ level spellcaster. Her spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 23, +15 to hit with spell attacks). Nilana has the following wizard/sorcerer spells prepared:
• Cantrips (at will): mage hand, prestidigitation, firebolt, mold earth
• 1st level (5 slots): chaos bolt, detect magic, magic missile, shield, thunderwave
• 2nd level (4 slots): detect thoughts, invisibility, hold person, mirror image*, tasha’s mind whip
• 3rd level (4 slots): counterspell, fireball, fly, hypnotic pattern, slow
• 4th level (3 slots): banishment, dimension door, summon elemental, stone skin*
• 5th level (3 slots): legend lore, scrying, synaptic static, wall of force
• 6th level (2 slot): chain lightning, greater mage armor*, globe of invulnerability, sunbeam
• 7th level (2 slot): forcecage, mirage arcane, teleport
• 8th level (1 slot): feeblemind, mighty fortress, power word stun
• 9th level (1 slot): foresight, time stop
*Nilana casts these spells on itself before combat.


Magic Resistance.
She has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Legendary Resistance (3/Day).
If she fails a saving throw, she can choose to succeed instead.

Actions
Energy Blast.
Ranged Spell Attack: +15 to hit, range 120 ft., one creature. Hit: 16 (3d10) force damage. The target must succeed on a DC 18 strength or dexterity saving throw or be pushed away from Nilana by 20 ft. Can pass through barriers made of force.

Spell Casting.
Nilana can cast a spell she has prepared.

Legendary Actions
Nilana can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. Nilana regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.
•Cantrip. Nilana casts a cantrip.
•Cast Spell (Costs 1–3 Actions). She uses a spell slot to cast a 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-level spell that it has prepared. Doing so costs 1 legendary action per level of the spell.
•Teleporting thought (Costs 2 Actions). Nilana can teleport 60 ft.
•Disrupting thought (Costs 2 Actions). Range 90 ft. Nilana can make a 30 ft radius disruptive to magical engery. Spell casting cannot be done inside the area until initiative 20 of the next turn.
•Dispelling thought (Costs 3 Actions). Nilana can dispel magic in 60’ radius around her (not including her). Permanent magic items must save DC 23 or be rendered non magical. Major rare items DC 18. Legendary items are rendered inert for 2 rounds. Active spell effects that fail a DC 18 save are dispelled.
•Overcharging Thought (Costs 3 Actions). Nilana can touch a magic item and cause it to deal one of its effects at maximum result. Can only be used if Dispelling thought was used previously.

Lair Actions
•On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), Nilana can take a lair action to cause one of the following magical effects; she can't use the top two effects two rounds in a row:
•Nilana rolls a d8 and regains a spell slot of that level or lower. If it has no spent spell slots of that level or lower, nothing happens.
•Nilana calls forth the magic of nearby leylines. She can direct the energy to attack one creature that she can see within 60 feet of it. The target must succeed on a DC 20 Dexterity saving throw, taking 52 (15d6) lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a success. The energy then dissipates.
•Nilana can use the magic of nearby leylines to regenerate 25 hit points (can be used multiple rounds in a row).

[J-H]

No, it's fine. I'd have her pre-cast Mirror Image and get a way to impose disadvantage, though. A couple of lucky crits could wipe 200hp out in one round starting at around level 10-12.

[Smersh_23]

No, it's fine. I'd have her pre-cast Mirror Image and get a way to impose disadvantage, though. A couple of lucky crits could wipe 200hp out in one round starting at around level 10-12.

Thanks, added this suggestion in my notes :)

[Captain Panda]

On the contrary, that's way too weak. You need to beef her hit points and armor class (with shield) at *least* up to what a player could manage at level 20, I'd say. A level 12 party would smash this NPC.

[kazaryu]

•Dispelling thought (Costs 3 Actions). Nilana can dispel magic in 60’ radius around her (not including her). Permanent magic items must save DC 23 or be rendered non magical. Major rare items DC 18. Legendary items are rendered inert for 2 rounds. Active spell effects that fail a DC 18 save are dispelled.
•Overcharging Thought (Costs 3 Actions). Nilana can touch a magic item and cause it to deal one of its effects at maximum result. Can only be used if Dispelling thought was used previously.
.

ok so...while overall the statblock isn't too strong, i do have questions about these.
first off: magic items making a save? what kind of save? how are the values of the saves determined? overall this is more about bookeeping, as long as you/your players have a clear idea of what this means, you should be fine.

second: once you know the save, the DC's are way too high. dc 23 for every magic item, in a high magic campaign? typically powerful effects like that are going to have lower DC's. Solars, for example, the DC on their blinding gaze is like...15. which means that, unlike most of its other DC's, there's no way its based on the standard 8+prf+ability score, or its lowest value would be a 22. the designers deliberately lowered the value, likely because its a devastating control effect that is spammable. its also only single target. a 60 foot radius burst that can permanently disenchant most/all your magic items? yeah...you may as well just make it automatic rather than trying to **** around with a dozen DC 23 saves.

third: permanently destroying all magic items in a 60ft. radius just sounds...unfun. from a player perspective, personally, i think it would make more sense to have it be temporary, but automatic. something like 'until the end of your next turn, all magic items function as though they're mundane' or something like that. i might even move it to being a lair action instead. alternatively, if you want the permanent magic item destruction, i'd make it single target. which gives the party the ability to interact with other than just being a victim

[stoutstien]

Bout on par with lich. Glass cannon that is one dispel magic away from getting demolished.id probably change the magic item destruction to just suppression for X rounds but magic items are rare in my campaigns.

With intelligence and wisdom that high there is absolutely no reason for this NPC to engage in a head-on encounter with anyone.

[Smersh_23]

ok so...while overall the statblock isn't too strong, i do have questions about these.
first off: magic items making a save? what kind of save? how are the values of the saves determined? overall this is more about bookeeping, as long as you/your players have a clear idea of what this means, you should be fine.

second: once you know the save, the DC's are way too high. dc 23 for every magic item, in a high magic campaign? typically powerful effects like that are going to have lower DC's. Solars, for example, the DC on their blinding gaze is like...15. which means that, unlike most of its other DC's, there's no way its based on the standard 8+prf+ability score, or its lowest value would be a 22. the designers deliberately lowered the value, likely because its a devastating control effect that is spammable. its also only single target. a 60 foot radius burst that can permanently disenchant most/all your magic items? yeah...you may as well just make it automatic rather than trying to **** around with a dozen DC 23 saves.

third: permanently destroying all magic items in a 60ft. radius just sounds...unfun. from a player perspective, personally, i think it would make more sense to have it be temporary, but automatic. something like 'until the end of your next turn, all magic items function as though they're mundane' or something like that. i might even move it to being a lair action instead. alternatively, if you want the permanent magic item destruction, i'd make it single target. which gives the party the ability to interact with other than just being a victim

I was worried it might be to much. I should break it down more for each category and limit the effects on uncommon and above. The intention is for common items like potions etc to be destroyed. Stronger items like uncommon and above maybe shouldn't be destroyed.

I also see your point on making a ton of DC saves. Ill have to rethink how to structure this ability. Your suggestions are good.

The intent is for this NPC to be an ally against someone stronger. She is also my first legendary I made from scratch.

[loki_ragnarock]

The defenses are too weak; this NPC will be pure rocket tag for high level characters. Nilana might last a round in high level, high magic play.

That said, I have to echo the other commentary about the anti-magic item field; making dozens of saves will slow down play and make it unfun. The actual effect I have no real problem with, as it's pretty rare to come up against an enemy that'll leave consequences that don't involve death in this edition. But rolling... what, maybe three saves per character? Maybe more? That sounds like a drag.

[Eurus]

I agree that defenses are too weak here if you want this NPC to survive multiple rounds against a high level party. Since you want to emphasize magic, maybe give her the ability to counterspell multiple times in a round? Maybe a legendary action to regain her reaction or something. Then she can rely on defensive spell buffs, and just make it really hard to dispel them because she can sling counterspells against an entire party.

[stoutstien]

I agree that defenses are too weak here if you want this NPC to survive multiple rounds against a high level party. Since you want to emphasize magic, maybe give her the ability to counterspell multiple times in a round? Maybe a legendary action to regain her reaction or something. Then she can rely on defensive spell buffs, and just make it really hard to dispel them because she can sling counterspells against an entire party.

Could just use dispel out of CS range nor would this NPC want to be in a confined space. Hard area to thread between those two.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I don't DM and I'm no expert on high level play, but I think that you should homebrew another spell in place of Stoneskin. I doubt that this NPC is going to want to use her concentration for that, so I'd give her a non-concentration version of it (maybe 7th level?).

Or just give the resistances to her as part of her core abilities.

[Chaos Jackal]

Is she supposed to face a party of lv8s? Then yeah, she might be too strong.
Is she supposed to face a party of lv11s? If the party is half-decent she might be challenging (with high initiative and depending on positioning she could split a party with forcecage, survive the weakened nova and try to take them out one at a time, especially if they're not big on teleportation to boot), but odds are on the party's side.
Is she supposed to face a party of lv15s? She'll be destroyed unless the party is really weak and/or lacks things like strong ranged attacks and tactical movement.

Of course, things are subject to change if she fights with a bunch of minions.

She's stronger than a baseline lich, but a lich on its own is a straightforward fight for a tier 3 party.

Destroying magic items is an issue, but not necessarily because it'll make fighting her that much harder (unless her stoneskin isn't dispelled or removed via failing concentration). Destroying the party's gear is generally not something to be done lightly and can cause tension, but you know your players best.

I'm guessing you have your own system for determining item saves, by the way?

[Smersh_23]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll make some changes and update post.

[Smersh_23]

I'm guessing you have your own system for determining item saves, by the way?

No I don't, so I'll make it up 😁
I'll rework that ability so I don't have to make saves. Maybe lesser items are suppressed for 24 hrs, major items 1 hr, legendary, 2 rounds. I forget all the categories...I'll look it up later.

The players aren't suppose to murder her. So I feel they should suffer some non death penalty if they do try as they are all good aligned characters.

They will initially meet her at lvl 8. It's also funny that several of you compared her to a lich as I used that for my base line. So I'm going to beef her up some so a party of 12-15 will be challenged.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Two things -proficiency bonus and saving throws.

Her proficiency bonus should be at least 6, however a lot of the things reliant on it seem to be set at a random value. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that but it's really weird to parse through. My guess is it's supposed to be 7, which is the value that lines up with her spell attack bonus and save DC

She should also have at least two saving throw proficiencies, none of her saving throw bonuses except for intelligence are high enough to suggest she's proficient. Her Wisdom and Charisma saving throws should be at least matching her ability score modifier, her Wisdom being too high (or low if she's meant to be proficient) and her Charisma too low.

Edit: Oversight on my part, but also something to fix, her intelligence ability modifier is off, this should be a +7 or her score should be at least 26.

[mucat]

With her mental ability scores, she probably anticipates most forms of serious trouble, and has contingency plans even for surprises. She's forgotten more magic than the greatest mages of the current era have ever learned. And given her long lifespan and presumably sociable nature, she must have vast resources and lots of powerful friends (or has she just re-entered the world after being dormant for a long time?) So to me, the concern about tweaking her stat block for a Nilana-vs-everyone battle seems misplaced; I honestly can't imagine a circumstance where she would let such a battle happen (except as a carefully-orchestrated distraction from her real plan.)

If I were planning a campaign in a world that included this lady, the questions I would be asking are Elminster/Ozymandius/Tippy-style narrative ones: what does she want to accomplish? Why hasn't she already done so -- or has she? What constraints, external or self-imposed, does she operate under? And how will all of this affect the PCs and their stories?

That last question is the really important one, and may require rethinking the answers to the rest until you're satisfied with her role in the world. A mortal superwizard with godlike intellect alters the story in ways that actual gods -- who usually have fuzzily-understood but powerful metaphysical constraints on their actions -- do not.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Essentially, you made a Legendary CR 12..which is fine.
If the party isn't supposed to fight the NPC, then the stat block may not come up.

If the party does indeed make an enemy of her, you can just alter the NPC's Spell Loadout, add some Magic Items, and add some Planar Bound minions, and the NPC would be a challenge for higher tier characters.

The Stat Block for Halaster Blackcloak in Dungeon of the Mad Mage also works to represent an Elder Archmage. The Stat block states it is a CR 21...by current standards it might be closer to CR 19...but still a decent opponent...once the spells are upgraded.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Essentially, you made a Legendary CR 12..which is fine.
If the party isn't supposed to fight the NPC, then the stat block may not come up.

If the party does indeed make an enemy of her, you can just alter the NPC's Spell Loadout, add some Magic Items, and add some Planar Bound minions, and the NPC would be a challenge for higher tier characters.

The Stat Block for Halaster Blackcloak in Dungeon of the Mad Mage also works to represent an Elder Archmage. The Stat block states it is a CR 21...by current standards it might be closer to CR 19...but still a decent opponent...once the spells are upgraded.

Or in the case of our game, that and more.

Suggestion to OP, since your comment reminded me, don't forget about Epic Boons. I know that in our Mad Mage campaign Halaster is able to cast at least two 9th level spells in a single encounter. An ancient high mage in a setting that's already considered high magic should probably have at least that much ability.

[Dalinar]

My experience in high level play is lacking, but my DM once threw a 500HP homebrew critter at a level 5 party at the end of a particularly harrowing dungeon and we still managed to take it down (though it wasn't the cleanest victory possible). It wasn't even alone at the time, either.

I'd consider your PCs abilities when statting her out. If you have some of those gloomstalker/assassin types, sorcadin smite machines, or other burst-oriented party members, you'll probably want more HP and defensive spells. If your party prefers a slow-burn tactical fighting style, you'll probably want to lean on the control effects harder. She has probably already scryed (scried? scriven?) on the party and come up with a dozen contingencies. She might also have a few special abilities from the wizard subclasses--Portent might be an interesting one, Arcane Ward as well.

[Smersh_23]

In our game we just got to level 7 tonight. Its the highest level we have played in 5E. So no one at the table has any experience above tier 2. This NPC is just me starting to look forward at what is coming and planning ahead. There at lots of good suggestions I will be adding and a bunch of stuff I never even thought of.

So thanks to everyone for posting