Lore - how does a mortal become a God ?

[da newt]

Is there a common / standard way that one becomes a God in DnD?

If there isn't one 'normal' path/method, what are the various ways that are cannon?

(aka - please do my research for me)

[Wintermoot]

In BECMI (basic, expert, companion, master, immortal) the basic D&D version, the Immortal set has specific rules for a player "ascending" to become an immortal (a god in that version). In later versions, >20 level was just an epic mortal, not a God.

I remember there were a number of paths you could take and each path had different challenges, but I don't remember the specifics.

So you could check that out for Lore about how to ascend.

[Sigreid]

In the old Deities and Demigods (yeah, long time ago) you had to get a thousand or so mortals to honestly worship you.

At another point, you could kill an existing God and take their portfolio, which I think they're still keeping that lore.

That said, I think it's a DM decision. I had a 3.5 rogue that the DM acknowledged as being on the path by helping people in exchange for them saying a prayer to him on a particular day each year.

[Silly Name]

Depends on setting (it may be straight up impossible in some, or have some specific requirement), but usually the key is belief. If enough people start to earnestly believe someone is a deity and worship them, then that person is on the track for godhood. Keep in mind that we're talking about thousands of followers being required, so it's not easy.

In the Forgotten Realms, you need Ao's approval - no matter how much belief and worship you are getting, until Ao says you can be a god, you're not getting anywhere.

In a setting like Greyhawk, with no Overgod in the way, it's really about cultivating a large following. That's how Vecna began his path to godhood, after being destroyed by Kas.

Killing another god to steal their portfolio is pretty risky - Cyric of the Forgotten Realms did it, but, again, he was granted the "stolen" portfolio only because Ao decreed that Cyric was a good enough fit for it. If a random adventurer slew Bahamut, it's unlikely they'd be a good fit for the Dragon King's portfolio.

On other worlds, it's hard to say how that would go. I can't think of any relevant example from Greyhawk or Dragonlance.

[Unoriginal]

Is there a common / standard way that one becomes a God in DnD?

If there isn't one 'normal' path/method, what are the various ways that are cannon?

(aka - please do my research for me)

Mike Mearls had a video on that a few years back. The answer was basically "there is many ways to become a god, and usually each way is unique to the individual".

Aside from that, there is one "standard" way to become a god in 5e: the Yuan-ti Anathema can perform a ritual which will result in them becoming a full-fledged deity. Many Anathemas do it successfully (how long each of them survive as the new arrival in a pantheon where the lower echelons' members regularly eat each other for power is another question).

Now, it's important to define what is a god in D&D 5e. In 5e, the gods are entities which gain powers through worship and are in turn capable of empowering Clerics. It's not a question of power, strictly speaking, but of the being's nature: Orcus is much more powerful than the Trickster Gods of Omu, for example, but (in this edition) he never figured out how to acquire the divine spark that'd let him do the "gain power through worship" thing, while the Trickster Gods can just do it.

According to the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, the Raven Queen is the result of an elf queen trying to become a goddess by syphoning power from both Corellon and Lolth, via a ritual she had many wizards assist with, but the wizards betrayed her and it ended up badly for everyone involved.

The DMG indicates that entities that are the children/creations of gods, or who were once full gods but lost it, could in principle become full-on deities (again) in special circumstances.

It's also been said that Acererak *could* become a god but that he repeatedly refused the opportunities of it happening.


Now, the one scheme to become a god that we see "still ongoing" in 5e, to my knowledge, is the one in

Spoiler

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Tomb of Annihilation, where the souls of everyone who die on Toril for several months are absorbed into an artifact, before being fed to an Athropal (aka an undead god-foetus) in order to provide it with enough energy for an apotheosis (which if successful would result in the newly-minted death god killing everyone on the planet)

[Burley]

Kratos became the God of War by killing the previous God of War. All of the Olympians ascended to godhood after slaying (or otherwise defeating) their Titanic relatives. Sometimes, slaying a god, or removing anything more god-like than yourself, is the path to godhood.
In OotS, the goblins have their own god called The Dark One, who ascended to godhood through power and persistance. Sometimes, being worshipped as a god is all takes.
A sufficiently powerful D&D wizard could create a pocket dimension, where they have control over matter and physics. In that pocket dimension, at least relatively, that wizard is a god.

[Dalinar]

For the purposes of this thread, is a god just the most powerful thing around, or is it somehow laterally different from, say, a level 20 wizard?

[J-H]

Deities usually have the ability to multitask when it comes to watching and intervening in multiple areas of the world at a time, as well as the ability to grant spells, and the ability to dispatch avatar(s) to deal with issues.

From Practical Guide to Evil:
"How do you kill a god?
Make another."

[Sigreid]

For the purposes of this thread, is a god just the most powerful thing around, or is it somehow laterally different from, say, a level 20 wizard?

I'd say to be a god, you have to meet a few criteria.

1. You have to be able to draw on reserves of power from the worship of people.
2. You have to have responsibility for worshipers in the afterlife.
3. The ability to share some level of power with your worshipers
4. Some level of protection from just being killed by some rando.

[Trask]

The way my DM is running it in our epic level game is simple stabby rules. You kill a god, you can take their divinity, but to grow in potency beyond that you need to be worshiped. Its simplistic but it facilitates interesting scenarios.

I should note that "killing a god" is probably easier said than done, and would require some fabulous luck or overwhelming power on the part of the slayer. I can't imagine many DM's allowing godhood to simply fall into one's lap unless that was the campaign's premise from the start, and so planning around it may be fruitless. Becoming godlike however is probably much more reasonable. Any 20th level character should have the power at that point to amass worship from the loyal and the foolish, if they really wanted to.

[Millstone85]

Aside from that, there is one "standard" way to become a god in 5e: the Yuan-ti Anathema can perform a ritual which will result in them becoming a full-fledged deity. Many Anathemas do it successfully (how long each of them survive as the new arrival in a pantheon where the lower echelons' members regularly eat each other for power is another question).

Now, it's important to define what is a god in D&D 5e. In 5e, the gods are entities which gain powers through worship and are in turn capable of empowering Clerics.

There may trickery afoot with them serpent "gods". VGtM gives statblocks for typical yuan-ti priests of Dendar, Sseth and Merrshaulk, but every time the creature "knows the following warlock spells" instead of cleric ones.

[Amnestic]

Pathfinder's setting has a few options: touch a magic rock (the Starstone), eat the flesh of a dead god, write a REALLY good book, achieve "physical and mental perfection" (the ultimate monk) and more!

[tyckspoon]

There are, I think, very broadly speaking three common routes to godhood:

1: Build your own faith and get people worshipping you until the combined power is sufficient to raise you as a new god in your own right.
- This requires a decision from the DM as to how the cosmology works, eg, that devotion is in itself a form of power, and that the gods draw on this in some way/are created or sustained by it. This is a pretty common assumption/setting element, because it helps justify why all the various gods are striving against each other and have active evangelist churches, which is a helpful source of plots and conflicts to drive games with.

2: Steal the existing godhood from something else, whether by Highlander/Santa Clause rules (you killed the previous god, congratulations it's your job now) or by some other feat - made a blasphemous arcane ritual that hijacks a god's connection to divinity, pulled off the ultimate heist to sneak into Olympus and stole a sample of the divine ambrosia, beat the god of athletics in an arm-wrestling contest after convincing them to put their title on the line as a bet, whatever.

3: Be sponsored by pre-existing gods to join their pantheon - this may happen if you find yourself representing a gap in the portfolios of the existing pantheon, or more commonly a pantheon may have an existing tradition of ascending great heroes (in which case you will likely achieve what has been variously referred to as a 'quasi-deity' or 'hero god' - you have the divine spark, but you don't have the control of an aspect of reality or the connection to a church/your followers that a full on god would be expected to have.)

[Naanomi]

The 'usual' path is to be worshiped as a God already and then ascend... sometimes requires an Overdeity's permission but sometimes not.

Other examples that have happened is to absorb the power of a God (usually by killing them); be given the powers of a God willingly; by act of certain artifacts; being 'destined' to become a God somehow

Sometimes beings already as powerful as Gods become Gods automatically (we even have stories of powerful Planar entities actively working to prevent such a thing from happening)

[Rafaelfras]

The 'usual' path is to be worshiped as a God already and then ascend... sometimes requires an Overdeity's permission but sometimes not.

Other examples that have happened is to absorb the power of a God (usually by killing them); be given the powers of a God willingly; by act of certain artifacts; being 'destined' to become a God somehow

Sometimes beings already as powerful as Gods become Gods automatically (we even have stories of powerful Planar entities actively working to prevent such a thing from happening)

One last method, find a bored God of the end of all things and entertain him enough so he gives you part of his portifólio through games and bets

[qube]

In the Forgotten Realms, you need Ao's approval - no matter how much belief and worship you are getting, until Ao says you can be a god, you're not getting anywhere.

Killing another god to steal their portfolio is pretty risky - Cyric of the Forgotten Realms did it, but, again, he was granted the "stolen" portfolio only because Ao decreed that Cyric was a good enough fit for it. If a random adventurer slew Bahamut, it's unlikely they'd be a good fit for the Dragon King's portfolio.

Actually, there IS another way. Or, at least, possibly was. to temporarily become a god.

Krasus's avatar, A 12th level spell did so.

... In lore, however, things went HORRIBLY wrong when Krasus tried to cast the spell (so bad, it forced the godess of magic, Mystryl, to commit suicide.
The next godess of magic, Mystra, limitted spells to level 9.
The possibility is still there however, as we don't actually know if the current godess of magic (also called Mystra (the ascended mortal previously known as Midnight) ) upholds said limit.

One last method, find a bored God of the end of all things and entertain him enough so he gives you part of his portifólio through games and bets

Oh, right, this happened too in Fearun.

Jergal just gave up his his godhood and split it amongst Bane (hatred tyranny), Myrkul (death) and Bhaal (murder)

To quote

"The throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish—I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the position. Who among you shall rule?"

[Zuras]

For the purposes of this thread, is a god just the most powerful thing around, or is it somehow laterally different from, say, a level 20 wizard?

Per the Brustian definition (from his Vlad books), a god is a being who can manifest their consciousness in multiple places simultaneously, and is not subject to the control of another being. The D&D definition would also normally include being able to draw power from worship and grant clerical spells, but the clear dividing line between a god and a powerful but non-divine being is that a god can manifest an avatar.

In general D&D terms, most ascensions to godhood either involve killing a god and taking their portfolio or being sponsored by deity to take over a sub portfolio. For example, the god of Dogs might find appearing to their worshippers in the form of a poodle beneath their dignity, and sponsor someone to be the Demigod of poodles.

[Naanomi]

Jergal just gave up his his godhood and split it amongst Bane (hatred tyranny), Myrkul (death) and Bhaal (murder)

And he was *still* strong enough to be a God afterwards. Jergal was no joke.

Also, being the child of a God (whether you know it or not) is a good path to Godhood

[Unoriginal]

There may trickery afoot with them serpent "gods". VGtM gives statblocks for typical yuan-ti priests of Dendar, Sseth and Merrshaulk, but every time the creature "knows the following warlock spells" instead of cleric ones.

Well:

Dendar the Night Serpent, while worshipped by the Yuan-ti, is explicitly not a deity at all, and as such she is unable to make Clerics.

Merrshaulk was once a full-on god, but he's now dormant and deprived of worship, which would make him a vestige currently. It is not surprising to see him be a warlock's patron as he is now.

Sseth *may* be a full-on god, but the Volo's pretty clear on how he just got enough worship to allow him to survive the Yuan-ti empire's collapse and he's now gathering power again. It is possible to be both a god and a warlock's patron, though, and ToA is explicit that it is taxing for gods with few worship to empower Clerics. So Sseth may be doing warlock pacts to avoid tapping into his godly reverses.

The lower-ranked serpent gods are actual gods for the most part, and many are ascended mortals, but that just show that becoming a god isn't the hard part, the hard part is staying one.

[da newt]

Thanks - please keep it coming.

The BBEG in our campaign ascended, and I'm not familiar enough with the DnD cosmology to wrap my head around what that means wrt stuff like: how, what does that really mean, can PCs defeat Gods or is that something only gods can do, can a God be killed, what's the difference between a God and an Arch Devil / Demon, is there a hierarchy, etc.

What should I be reading for 5e info on this stuff?

[BerzerkerUnit]

Just look up Finder Wyvernspur and you should be good to go.

[Temperjoke]

There may trickery afoot with them serpent "gods". VGtM gives statblocks for typical yuan-ti priests of Dendar, Sseth and Merrshaulk, but every time the creature "knows the following warlock spells" instead of cleric ones.

Well:

Dendar the Night Serpent, while worshipped by the Yuan-ti, is explicitly not a deity at all, and as such she is unable to make Clerics.

Merrshaulk was once a full-on god, but he's now dormant and deprived of worship, which would make him a vestige currently. It is not surprising to see him be a warlock's patron as he is now.

Sseth *may* be a full-on god, but the Volo's pretty clear on how he just got enough worship to allow him to survive the Yuan-ti empire's collapse and he's now gathering power again. It is possible to be both a god and a warlock's patron, though, and ToA is explicit that it is taxing for gods with few worship to empower Clerics. So Sseth may be doing warlock pacts to avoid tapping into his godly reverses.

The lower-ranked serpent gods are actual gods for the most part, and many are ascended mortals, but that just show that becoming a god isn't the hard part, the hard part is staying one.

To further this, it's mentioned that the Yuan-Ti don't worship their gods in the same sense, as ultimately they're trying to ascend to become gods themselves (at least often their leaders desire it).It can probably boil down to the differences between clerics and warlocks in general and their relationship with their power sources. VGtE mentions that the serpent gods often utilize the secret of divine ascension to entice followers, and that sometimes those followers figure out a method from the crumbs of knowledge being trickled out.

If I recall there's been some loose lore mentioned in 5e about gods granting the spark of divinity to mortals to turn them into deities. That was given in MtoF as how Laduguer ascended to become the god of the duergar, he was given th espark of divinity from Abbathor. Also, overdeities such as AO have not made an appearance in 5e officially yet, not to my knowledge.

I know a lot of people have strong feelings regarding Critical Role, but in that setting a ritual exists that has granted godhood to two individuals, the Raven Queen and Vecna (of that setting not related to the greater d&d continuity). There wasn't any specific mention of what the ritual entailed though.

[Naanomi]

what does that really mean

At a minimum; it means they can empower clerics, are empowered by and dependant on worship, have a divine realm (probably in the Outer Planes), draw the souls of followers to them after they die, and have a 'portfolio' that they have exceptional awareness and control over (like 'fire, wealth, the dead' etc... A thing they are 'god of').

Most Gods also have exceptional stats and magical abilities in general, but a few of the weakest demigods are not much stronger than a supremely powerful mortal

can PCs defeat Gods or is that something only gods can do

PCs can in theory defeat Demigods and Lesser Gods; though doing the latter is definitely the climax of a long quest to get the right artifacts etc...

can a God be killed

Yes, most easily by other Gods; secondarily by removing all their worshipers (without which they wither up and die, but not instantly); and lastly by powerful beings of other kinds (including lucky parties of high level PCs)

what's the difference between a God and an Arch Devil / Demon

Gods are tied to worshipers, powered by and connected to them. Powerful Planar creatures like Arch-Devils lack that power source, but also lack the need to maintain worshipers to survive. In many ways, Arch-Devils and Demon Lords and their kin are more important and powerful to the 'big picture' than any random God... Asmodeus is much more important as the Lord of Baator than he is as the God of Corruption or whatever. But Gods are heavy hitters and powerful enough to give Planar Bignames pause; so they tend to maneuver around each other rather than confront each other directly.

Is there a hierarchy

Of Gods? In a given Pantheon yes, often, but all Gods everywhere in the Planes? Not really. Even Overpowers (like AO) and their ilk are not really 'above' the Gods in a strict sense on the Planar scale

[Millstone85]

This requires a decision from the DM as to how the cosmology works, eg, that devotion is in itself a form of power, and that the gods draw on this in some way/are created or sustained by it. This is a pretty common assumption/setting element, because it helps justify why all the various gods are striving against each other and have active evangelist churches, which is a helpful source of plots and conflicts to drive games with.

Note that 5e describes the Astral Plane as "the realm of thought and dream" (DMG p46) and a psychic wind as being "made up of lost memories, forgotten ideas, minor musings, and subconscious fears that went astray in the Astral Plane and conglomerated into this powerful force" (DMG p47). So if a campaign/setting uses that cosmological element, it becomes a simple matter of saying that prayers, devoted thoughts and firmly held beliefs can also shape astral currents to create a powerful force.

In some interpretations, like OotS' own Lesson Planar, the Outer Planes themselves were created through just such a process. Which I suppose would make the creatures of these planes, such as celestials and fiends, indirectly divine.

Also, overdeities such as AO have not made an appearance in 5e officially yet, not to my knowledge.

Tyr's blindness is explained as "a wound dealt to him by Ao when he questioned the justice of the Overgod's actions" (SCAG p40). So that's at least one mention.

It might also be the most sympathetic thing about Tyr.

is there a hierarchy

Of Gods? In a given Pantheon yes, often, but all Gods everywhere in the Planes? Not really. Even Overpowers (like AO) and their ilk are not really 'above' the Gods in a strict sense on the Planar scale

The DMG page 11 has a sidebar called Divine Rank, which distinguishes greater deities, lesser deities and quasi-deities. However, I think this whole sidebar has... problems.

Greater deities are said to be "almost always removed from direct involvement in mortal affairs". That would mean that they do not need worshippers, and were probably meant to include overpowers and beyond. But now every known deity, like Lolth, Bahamut, etc., ends up being described as a lesser god. Also, the sidebar makes avatars the exclusive purview of greater gods. And that's just so lame, IMO.

[Eldan]

Planescape had an adventure called Harbinger House which was about a group of mortals with a spark of divinity, which could turn into full divinity under specific circumstances. Their growing power all drove them mad, though. The PCs first get involved when one of them breaks out of the titular Harbinger House, a madhouse for growing powers and goes on a ritualistic serial killer rampage he thinks will let him ascend.

There's several possible endings, including one of several of those mortals becoming full gods.

[Amnestic]

Deities and Demigods has a few 'adventure hooks' related to mortals becoming gods:

Adventure Idea: Every few decades, the gods hold a great tournament. All the gods surrender their divine powers (treat them as divine rank 0) for one day and face all challengers, whether divine, infernal, or mortal. The top twenty-two (assuming one god for each domain, but you could easily change this number) finishers become fully ranked gods. Any deity who fails to place in the top twenty-two remains divine rank 0 but no longer has a portfolio, and is the subject of much mockery by other deities. Player characters learn of a conspiracy to cheat a demon lord into the winning ranks and must put a stop to it.

Adventure Idea: The patron deity of one or more of the player characters becomes mortal after someone steals her very divine nature from her. Adventurers are among her significant worshipers, so she contacts the player characters and begs them to return her divine spark. The usurper now lives in her divine realm, of course, so player characters know where to find him, and presumably also the divine spark. Player characters must successfully steal back the purloined divinity (in whatever form it’s in) and then decide whether to become gods or to return it to their patron deity.

Adventure Idea: A god’s servant approaches the player characters with a message. The servant’s patron deity will grant the player characters divine status, provided t hey recover a specific artifact from a demon prince’s lair in the Abyss and return it to the deity’s temple in the capital. Player characters must travel to the Abyss, locate the demon prince’s lair, infiltrate it, recover the artifact, and then safely transport it to the temple. As an added complication, the artifact is hideously dangerous to mortals on the Material Plane if not handled very carefully. To make matters worse, evil gods discover this quest and actively seek to destroy the patron deity’s reputation by unleashing the artifact’s horror on the world.

If the player characters succeed, they become gods.

[Naanomi]

DMG page 11 has a sidebar called Divine Rank, which distinguishes greater deities, lesser deities and quasi-deities.

Right but generally that is a ranking of *power*, not authority. Grumbar may be a Greater Deity of 'Earth'; but doesn't have any direct hierarchical relationship with The Red Knight, quasi-deity of battle strategy. The are not in the same pantheon and don't share areas of interest in the bigger cosmological sense... Not hierarchical in any meaningful way

[Millstone85]

Right but generally that is a ranking of *power*, not authority.

It is often the case that might makes right, but otherwise yeah.

Grumbar may be a Greater Deity of 'Earth'

Or not. As I said, by the 5e DMG's description if the greater/lesser divine divide, I am almost certain that the only greater deity of the Realms is Lord Ao. He alone seems to fit the "almost always removed from direct involvement in mortal affairs" bill.

[Naanomi]

Or not. As I said, by the 5e DMG's description if the greater/lesser divine divide, I am almost certain that the only greater deity of the Realms is Lord Ao. He alone seems to fit the "almost always removed from direct involvement in mortal affairs" bill.

Maybe. The four elemental powers are... Pretty removed from direct involvement in mortal affairs... I could see readings supporting either position (I chose Grumbar for that reason in my example)

If we set Overdeity as the level for being 'Greater' in 5e we have... Two confirmed Greater Deities in all of creation? (Plus maybe the unnumbered Elder Ones?
And perhaps Anubis?)

[Millstone85]

Maybe. The four elemental powers are... Pretty removed from direct involvement in mortal affairs... I could see readings supporting either position (I chose Grumbar for that reason in my example)

Well, I am coming from the angle of Grumbar meeting the basic level of involvement expected from a deity: empowering clerics. Something Ao explicitly refuses to do.