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    Devil

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    Default How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Lately I was trying to find alternative ways to build STR characters than just the same old GWM/PAM, which I consider a fairly suboptimal guideline for generic melee builds. However it was brought to my attention that Jeremy Crawford thinks the controlled mount and the PC have separate turns using the same initiative. With this ruling you can't blend their action economy, so you can't use hit and run tactics which pretty much defeats the purpose. Essentially this ruling makes mounts way worse for melee characters in particular, with the only possible good use being using their action to prepare an attack and execute it once the condition is triggered.

    There is a sentence in the RAW that is quite ambiguous, both in meaning and purpose.

    Spoiler: Mounted Combat
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    You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. Domesticated horses, donkeys, and similar creatures are assumed to have such training. The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.


    Without this sentence, the mount acts on it's own turn exactly like Crawford says it does. The rules resolve this situation.

    You and and an allied creature enter combat. Your initiative is 5 and the allied creature's is 10.

    1) The allied creature uses it's movement and actions, then ends it's turn.
    2) You use your action, spend half your movement and then use the other half to mount it (the allied creature's initiative changes to 5). You end your turn.
    3) Now the allied creature acts again but it's behavior has changed and follows the controlled mount rules. It takes it's actions, uses it's movement and ends it's turn.
    4) The round ends

    Same thing if you beat the mount on initiative:
    PC's initiative is 10, mount's is 5

    1) You use your action and half your movement, then spend the rest of your movement to mount it (it's initiative changes to 10).
    2) It uses it's action and movement speed and ends it's turn.
    3) The round ends.

    There is no rule that prohibits acting twice during a round. Whenever your initiative is up you take a turn. It doesn't conflict with the 6 second rule too. The rule states that a round lasts 6 seconds. It doesn't specify that things have to happen a particular way that fits inside this time frame. Even if you take 50 turns, once the round finishes only 6 seconds have passed.

    With this sentence, we get a possibility of another interaction: That the mount acts on the PC's turn.
    This sentence makes sense only if this interaction is true because up till now the mount and the PC had different turns. If you are already mounted, you and your mount act as one. If you mount it during combat, the behavior changes and the controlled behavior applies.

    So this is how I read the RAW, but there are metagame considerations too.

    STR characters have gotten the short end of the stick in this edition. This is because they get exactly the same scaling as their ranged counterparts, but they also have increased risk. Archery style also adds insult to injury. Essentially, the only benefit of using a melee weapon is the ability to perform attacks of opportunity, but this is diminished in this edition because AoOs are controlled by the reaction and it conflicts with other abilities, which tend to be the abilities that the melee character needs to survive. (things like Shield for example).

    Being allowed to use the mount as an extension of their character gives many benefits.

    1) For one, the advantage generation combined with GWM, makes melee deal more average dpr compared to archery SS/CE, as they should.
    2) Second it increases their reach. More often than not, it's the melee characters that can't connect during the first round of combat. So this is a huge boost, especially for characters that have limited mobility by design.
    3) It increases their survivability because now they don't have to stand in melee. They can use a reach weapon or disengage and have enough movement left to get back into a safer position.

    It also brings negatives. It gives them an additional way to be controlled and the mount can easily die and force them to fight while being unable to benefit from the feat and gold investment they made.

    So it makes perfect sense for me to run mounted combat as the PC and mount being one entity during combat, merging their action economy.

    How do you rule controlled mounts and why? Also any arguments against my RAW analysis are welcomed.





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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    I run it that a mount shares it’s riders turn. It’s less complicated and makes more sense to me.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    You're correct about the RAW. It sucks.

    I run it as:
    Any creature can submit to being a controlled mount. Controlled mounts move and act on your own turn, and you can intermingle your actions as you see fit. You don't need to use any sort of action to tell your mount to Dodge, but anything else requires your bonus action. Unintelligent mounts can only Dodge, Dash, or Disengage unless trained to be able to do something else; intelligent mounts can be told to do any valid actions/bonus actions. Mounts can use their reactions at will.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    You're correct about the RAW. It sucks.

    I run it as:
    Any creature can submit to being a controlled mount. Controlled mounts move and act on your own turn, and you can intermingle your actions as you see fit. You don't need to use any sort of action to tell your mount to Dodge, but anything else requires your bonus action. Unintelligent mounts can only Dodge, Dash, or Disengage unless trained to be able to do something else; intelligent mounts can be told to do any valid actions/bonus actions. Mounts can use their reactions at will.
    This is interesting, so if you want your mount to dash, you have to spend your bonus action? It makes a lot of sense because mounted speed can get a bit over the top. How would that interact with a hasted mount? Would it be able to use 2 dashes or only one dash per bonus action?

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    This is interesting, so if you want your mount to dash, you have to spend your bonus action? It makes a lot of sense because mounted speed can get a bit over the top. How would that interact with a hasted mount? Would it be able to use 2 dashes or only one dash per bonus action?
    You'd use your bonus action to choose both its normal action and its hasted action. I suppose if I were to write a specific exception for Haste, I'd have it automatically use Dodge + Disengage if it's not being told to do anything.
    Last edited by Dark.Revenant; 2021-11-29 at 02:55 PM.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    I see. Yea I like this rule, I can see myself using it and it wouldn't conflict too much with the builds I have in mind. It's a risk vs reward thing, you either use your BA to PAM and have less movement speed, or use your BA to dash and get in and out of range more efficiently. It would also affect ranged users negatively too which is a good balancing change. Ranged builds on a pegasus can be too much.
    Last edited by Gtdead; 2021-11-29 at 03:10 PM.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    In my opinion, the RAW are quite clear: Crawford is simply wrong.

    You both act on the same initiative, and that IS your turn. The mount's movement is no different from you using your own movement; you can do stuff in the middle of it moving just as you could when you are moving yourself. The moment you mount it, its initiative changes to yours, and it can move and act on the turn (yours) that this happens. Spend your movement to get on the mount, and it immediately can take off, dashing if you like, while you take your action and bonus action wherever you like in that whole sequence.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    You both act on the same initiative, and that IS your turn. The mount's movement is no different from you using your own movement; you can do stuff in the middle of it moving just as you could when you are moving yourself.
    That's my reading of the rules as well.

    Any other reading makes mounted combat unworkable.

    Sure, it means the mount might get two turns in one round, but that evens out becauae it may lose a turn if you dismount later in the combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    Don't waste time making rolls on things that aren't interesting. Move on and get to the good stuff.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Nowhere in the printed rules does it say how to make two creatures act simultaneously on the same turn. What you're describing is just your own common sense, not what the rules actually describe. The rules don't really describe anything, in fact.

    Given the poorly-written ambiguity of the mounted combat rules, it's left to the DM to decide how to reconcile things. However, when discussing what the RAW interpretation is, we have to err on the side of "if it's not in the book, you can't do it." Thus Crawford's ruling is, as it often is, technically correct*; since the rules fail to explicitly explain how two simultaneous turns might work, the most-RAW reading of the rules is that you can't have two simultaneous turns—one be resolved before the other one.


    *"from a certain point of view" -Obi-Wan
    Last edited by Dark.Revenant; 2021-11-29 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    Nowhere in the printed rules does it say how to make two creatures act simultaneously on the same turn. What you're describing is just your own common sense, not what the rules actually describe. The rules don't really describe anything, in fact.
    Er, in the rules for Initiative, it says that all of the monsters of a same type act on the same initiative. There's absolutely no need to spell out what "acting on the same turn" means because you already know what it means: any one creature acts on the same turn as that creature.

    There exist no examples of creatures who take simultaneous turns but are not on the same side. Any question of action order on the same turn is resolved by agreement of the players controlling the actors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    Given the poorly-written ambiguity of the mounted combat rules, it's left to the DM to decide how to reconcile things. However, when discussing what the RAW interpretation is, we have to err on the side of "if it's not in the book, you can't do it." Thus Crawford's ruling is, as it often is, technically correct*; since the rules fail to explicitly explain how two simultaneous turns might work, the most-RAW reading of the rules is that you can't have two simultaneous turns—one be resolved before the other one.


    *"from a certain point of view" -Obi-Wan
    Thing is, it IS in the book, and Crawford's ruling is just plain wrong.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Indeed there is some disconnect between initiative and turns. The exact wording is

    "The GM makes one roll for an entire group of identical Creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time."

    Initiative doesn't exactly determine "time". Everything is supposed to happen simultaneously, so this, along with the "open ended" description of what constitutes a turn, murk the water quite a bit.

    There actually aren't any rules that specify what constitutes a turn from start to finish. It only specifies what you can do in your turn, but it doesn't say anything about when the turn ends. So technically, if you have the same initiative, you can act, the ally acts, then you move, then the ally moves, and eventually you can declare that you finished your turn. We intuitively understand turns the way it works when playing chess or cards, but in a very technical reading the rule is open ended.

    In that sense, what Crawfords says isn't exactly RAW, it's just the most common interpretation of the rule.

    Unless of course I missed something that is stated somewhere else other than the combat section. I'm fairly sure that the words "turn" and "end" in the same phrase only exist when describing the effect of surprise.
    Last edited by Gtdead; 2021-11-29 at 06:52 PM.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    I used to care about this. I stopped doing so and now we do what's easiest (ie running mount + rider on the same turn) and have a table-level agreement not to do silly things.

    In general, I've found that the less I cared about specific wording of rules and figuring out what's RAW and what's not and the more I cared about what is best for that particular table at that particular time, the more fun I and my table had. Usually, that means taking the simplest non-absurd reading and running with it.
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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    We intuitively understand turns the way it works when playing chess or cards, but in a very technical reading the rule is open ended.
    Given the propensity for 5e's designers to use natural language that can be interpreted by a plain reading, I think the use of the word "turn" does indeed imply a discrete set of actions that one player takes entirely before the next turn in order, just like in chess or cards.


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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I used to care about this. I stopped doing so and now we do what's easiest (ie running mount + rider on the same turn) and have a table-level agreement not to do silly things.

    In general, I've found that the less I cared about specific wording of rules and figuring out what's RAW and what's not and the more I cared about what is best for that particular table at that particular time, the more fun I and my table had. Usually, that means taking the simplest non-absurd reading and running with it.
    A healthy attitude to have, imo.
    I tend to be very strict on rules for the sake of fairness in my games, so the players can read the text and have a reliable understanding of how things will run at my table. But the rules for mounted combat as written area area where I tell my players "how it's written is a bit of a mess, and while workable it is a pain".

    Simultaneous turns is what I'd recommend for both simplicity and fun, but it IS a house rule.

    Mounted combat deserved a more detailed write up in the PHB, and I hope it gets that treatment in the 5.5e release. Not more complex, just well organised and worded for ease of reference and understanding.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LtPowers View Post
    Given the propensity for 5e's designers to use natural language that can be interpreted by a plain reading, I think the use of the word "turn" does indeed imply a discrete set of actions that one player takes entirely before the next turn in order, just like in chess or cards.


    Powers &8^]
    Agreed and naturally I would assume that even on the same initiative, the actor needs to declare that he ends his turn in order for the next one to start his. The problem arises when they use phrases like "they act at the same time" or "it acts on your turn". Because using plain language, it can only mean that their actions are intertwined.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    We've just been playing it by replacing your movement abilities with your mounts and having you take your turn.
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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    We've just been playing it by replacing your movement abilities with your mounts and having you take your turn.
    I see, so the mount couldn't take the dash/dodge/disengage action I suppose. Did you change any rules regarding it's survivability?

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    I've ruled that "The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it." means that your controlled mount and you share one common turn during which you both can take actions, BA, movements, etc. but your mount is limited to the listed actions.

    With this ruling your controlled mount gives up it's ability to attack in order to act on your turn, conversely you can leave it to act on it's own turn and have free reign of it's action to attack or anything else.

    I can see the logic of JC's ruling, but I don't like it and I don't think it makes any sense at all.

    BTW, do you have a reference for 'Jeremy Crawford thinks the controlled mount and the PC have separate turns' ?

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    I've ruled that "The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it." means that your controlled mount and you share one common turn during which you both can take actions, BA, movements, etc. but your mount is limited to the listed actions.

    With this ruling your controlled mount gives up it's ability to attack in order to act on your turn, conversely you can leave it to act on it's own turn and have free reign of it's action to attack or anything else.

    I can see the logic of JC's ruling, but I don't like it and I don't think it makes any sense at all.

    BTW, do you have a reference for 'Jeremy Crawford thinks the controlled mount and the PC have separate turns' ?
    https://www.sageadvice.eu/rider-on-c...hare-one-turn/

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    I see, so the mount couldn't take the dash/dodge/disengage action I suppose. Did you change any rules regarding it's survivability?
    Hasn't really come up as mounts haven't been used a lot, but we'd probably just make the rider spend whatever kind of action they would normal have to for the mount to dash/dodge/disengage. Assuming a unintelligent mount. This does mean that the rogue cunning action would be great for mounted players, for example.
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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Hasn't really come up as mounts haven't been used a lot, but we'd probably just make the rider spend whatever kind of action they would normal have to for the mount to dash/dodge/disengage. Assuming a unintelligent mount. This does mean that the rogue cunning action would be great for mounted players, for example.
    I prefer bonus actions, so that it matches with the other cleaned-up "pet" mechanics. And so that Fighters don't have to start with 13 Dex and dip two levels of Rogue just to be able to be skilled horsemen.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark.Revenant View Post
    I prefer bonus actions, so that it matches with the other cleaned-up "pet" mechanics. And so that Fighters don't have to start with 13 Dex and dip two levels of Rogue just to be able to be skilled horsemen.
    If that came up for a concern in the group, I'd probably suggest we add it to the Mounted Combat feat and then we'd figure out what we wanted to do.
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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    Simultaneous turns is what I'd recommend for both simplicity and fun, but it IS a house rule.
    It really isn't. The rules clearly spell out that the mount acts on the turn you mount it, and there is no reason to assume that is some special case that changes the next time your initiative comes up. You and your mount share initiative, and you act on the same turn. The rules say so, and while you can argue that there is an alternate reading, so the DM must rule on it, that makes any interpretation equally a "house rule," and I do not think that is a good term here. It's a ruling, and I think the one most in line with the text of the RAW.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    The RAW isn't crystal clear, but it's clear enough. Individual creatures have their own turns. You just share the same initiative. Either Pc acts then mount acts, or vice versa.

    Edit: for anyone interested in rehashing, here's the last round:
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...Mounted-Combat

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    It really isn't. The rules clearly spell out that the mount acts on the turn you mount it, and there is no reason to assume that is some special case that changes the next time your initiative comes up. You and your mount share initiative, and you act on the same turn. The rules say so, and while you can argue that there is an alternate reading, so the DM must rule on it, that makes any interpretation equally a "house rule," and I do not think that is a good term here. It's a ruling, and I think the one most in line with the text of the RAW.
    When we have word from the dev's clarifying, I take that as being the official stance on the matter. I can arrive at that ruling without it, but how it is written it is unclear enough that these debates pop up every now and then.
    But to clarify, while I agree with the dev's statement on what RAW is, I do not agree that it is a good rule. I don't see it as "well the dev's clearly don't understand their own rule", no they understood, just did a poor on the implementation and writing.

    If you want to debate me about this, save your energy as my heart's just not in it. Been down this road too many times and I've already surrendered to how mounted rules as presented are not worth defending with how much jumping around, cross referencing and comparing you need to do in the rules to validate either interpretation.

    Scrap the PHB version as presented and just run your table in a way that makes sense.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    I think the initiative rules are pretty clear, and that Crawford misunderstands them*. Maybe that's what they *meant* to do, but, as it is, creatures acting all on the same turn is possible, when they have only one roll for their initiative, for instance, or in Mounted Combat, for another instance.

    Which is different from a tie in the Dex check to determine initiative; in that case, you have 2 different rolls that happened to be a tie. When that happens, the tie has to be resolved, and, once it is, it doesn't change. Those 2 creatures (or groups of creatures) will always act in different turns.

    But if a DM really insisted on the silly "separate turns" rule, here's what I'd be tempted to do:
    1- start combat mounted
    2- give the mount the first turn, have it move in to the enemy, dashing if necessary.
    3- Take my actions, bonus actions, etc.
    4- use half my movement to dismount
    5- use second half of my movement to remount. Mount now can, RAW, move and act again
    6-have the mount disengage and move back.

    Rinse and repeat.

    * or worse, doesn't understand himself. If you listen to this video: https://youtu.be/99tX6tmc73Q (from about 15 to 25 minutes) it's clear that, according to Crawford, the controlled mount has its movement actions coordinated with the rider to maximize the rider's mobility, and that one of the main drawbacks of independent mounts is that they don't have that capability.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-11-30 at 04:54 AM.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Frankly, I took one look at the rules, thought, that's absurd, and slung the whole set of rules. Instead, I let the mount act on the players turn, mixing their actions as they see fit, and allow the mount to take any action it likes, including attack, without any cost to the PC.

    I know action economy is a thing, but frankly if giving a character a free extra attack with a horse is in danger of imbalancing your game, you have more serious things to be worrying about. Sure, if the party start rocking Dragon and Griffon mounts, that will have a bit more of an effect, but that's something to consider before handing over such things. A Horse/Riding Dog/Tame Boar (and likewise, allowing a Familiar to make a piss-poor damage attack) is not going to be breaking any games.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Interesting. I consider letting them share a turn, effectively making being mounted result in a free action and upgraded movement, to be the more absurd interpretation.

    At least if they act one after the other the player has to put a little thought into how they want to take advantage of that extra movement and action, because different choices provide constraints on which of their actions and the mounts actions they can use.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Interesting. I consider letting them share a turn, effectively making being mounted result in a free action and upgraded movement, to be the more absurd interpretation.

    At least if they act one after the other the player has to put a little thought into how they want to take advantage of that extra movement and action, because different choices provide constraints on which of their actions and the mounts actions they can use.
    It's not an absurd interpretation; it is how the rules say they work, and it is the most intuitive way to think about it, unless you're very used to the legacy 3.5 mindset that you need a feat to be able to move-attack-move, as well.

    "The player has to put a little extra thought into it" isn't a good thing. It slows down the game to no real benefit, and it leads to those "thoughtful" moves creating very anti-verisimilitude, gamist movements and activities on the game board.

    5e's entire design paradigm is intended to get the game mechanics out of the way of gameplay. It may or may not succeed at that in any given instance, but this is a case where it does it well enough. You're on a horse: you can ride the horse as easily as you could run around, yourself.

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    Default Re: How do you run Controlled Mounts?

    RAW is a pain in the butt for mounted combat. In games I run, controlled mounts share turns AND actions with their riders. If the mount has action, bonus action, or reaction abilities, then the rider can direct the mount to use them, but at the cost of using up their own action, bonus action, or reaction to do so.

    Additionally, if a controlled mount is no more than one size larger than its rider and the rider either has proficiency in animal handling or the mounted combat feat (or for npcs if it makes sense for them to be skilled riders), then attacks targeting the controlled mount have disadvantage and the controlled mount has advantage on dexterity saves, dexterity (acrobatics) checks, and strength (athletics) checks.

    None of that is RAW, but it works better in my games. Riders don't get free disengage or dash actions just for being mounted, but mounts still effectively get to dodge as long as the rider is skilled (animal handling or mounted combat) and the mount isn't too big. Most importantly, the mounted character can still act before, after, or during their movement, and can change that decision from round to round, just like anybody else.

    It also theoretically lets me design more interesting mounts with bonus actions or reactions that a rider might take advantage of, so that there's a more meaningful distinction between different types of mounts than just their movement modes, but I haven't actually gotten around to doing that.
    Last edited by Sception; 2021-12-02 at 06:47 AM.

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