A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpicyBoi_Nezu View Post
    Play as a Succubus/Incubus, use Savage Species monster class mechanic, take the "Succubus/Incubus" monster class (pg. 196) gives you +3 will, and one level in some class that gives +2 will at first level (I recommend Bard).

    This allows you to take fiend of possession levels at 4th and 5th, netting you possession, curse, and magic item. No feat investment, no magic item shenanigans, no spells required, and a relatively reasonable method most any DM will approve of, especially if they approved "Fiend of Possession". Not to mention, you can use telepathy from Succubus to communicate in item form, and since you got tongues at 1st level, you can communicate with literally any intelligent creature while inside an item.
    I thought once you started a racial class like those in Savage Species you couldn't take other classes until you were done.

    "A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monsterís type and then quickly switching to a standard class"
    Last edited by Wombles; 2021-11-30 at 10:53 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wombles View Post
    I thought once you started a racial class like those in Savage Species you couldn't take other classes until you were done.

    "A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monsterís type and then quickly switching to a standard class"
    As I recall, it depends on which savage progression you're using; one version requires you to finish it entirely first, and another only requires that you finish it... eventually. Could be after you hit level 30 for all the rule cares. Also as I recall, the more broadly worded, unbalanced one was the earlier one, unsurprisingly enough.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Despair View Post
    As I recall, it depends on which savage progression you're using; one version requires you to finish it entirely first, and another only requires that you finish it... eventually. Could be after you hit level 30 for all the rule cares. Also as I recall, the more broadly worded, unbalanced one was the earlier one, unsurprisingly enough.
    Interesting, any idea where to find that rule?

    Edit: Found it Looks like its for templates only though.
    Last edited by Wombles; 2021-11-30 at 11:07 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Malphegor's Avatar

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Just of note while I was looking up options for this, thanks to Eberron Campaign Setting having a sidebar on it all fiends with sufficiently big enough charisma already apparently get a posession ability that resembles a low level fiend of posession.
    Atomic laser breath!

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpicyBoi_Nezu View Post
    Play as a Succubus/Incubus, use Savage Species monster class mechanic, take the "Succubus/Incubus" monster class (pg. 196) gives you +3 will, and one level in some class that gives +2 will at first level (I recommend Bard).

    This allows you to take fiend of possession levels at 4th and 5th, netting you possession, curse, and magic item. No feat investment, no magic item shenanigans, no spells required, and a relatively reasonable method most any DM will approve of, especially if they approved "Fiend of Possession". Not to mention, you can use telepathy from Succubus to communicate in item form, and since you got tongues at 1st level, you can communicate with literally any intelligent creature while inside an item.
    "A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class" p152
    I was so happy yu found something but then... nope

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Zarvistic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    "A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class" p152
    I was so happy yu found something but then... nope
    The later web enhancements do allow it for some templates so perhaps your DM is willing to let you use it with monster classes too? It doesn't sound like you mean to use the fiend class for anything game-breaking.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Note: CE or NE Petitioner have both Outsider type and Evil subtype, and - technically - LA +0; all you would need is to get the skill ranks and Will save

    Overall, looks like the 4th level is the "hard limit" for entering FoP (at least, without abusing negative LA - with it, you can enter FoP below the 0th level)

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarvistic View Post
    The later web enhancements do allow it for some templates so perhaps your DM is willing to let you use it with monster classes too? It doesn't sound like you mean to use the fiend class for anything game-breaking.
    Do you happen to have the link for it ?
    Last edited by Paragon; 2021-12-01 at 11:45 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Note: CE or NE Petitioner have both Outsider type and Evil subtype, and - technically - LA +0; all you would need is to get the skill ranks and Will save

    Overall, looks like the 4th level is the "hard limit" for entering FoP (at least, without abusing negative LA - with it, you can enter FoP below the 0th level)
    Not having a level adjustment listed is NOT the same as LA +0. Doesn't look like that template is a PC template at all.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    Do you happen to have the link for it ?
    Yes, it's these articles: Savage Progressions
    Last edited by Zarvistic; 2021-12-01 at 12:16 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Not having a level adjustment listed is NOT the same as LA +0.
    It is - for templates:
    A template's description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature.
    The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature's statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."
    If no LA was mentioned - then it's the "same as the base creature" (i. e. +0 for the template itself)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Doesn't look like that template is a PC template at all.
    3.5 update booklet for Manual of the Planes don't lists them as "LA: ó" - thus, a fair play for a PC...

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I think the usual answer for this one is a Diabolus (Dragon Compendium) with the Divine Minion template. LA +2, no RHD.
    Is the Diabolus eligible for its lesser version from PGtF ? If so it's only LA+1 :D

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    It is - for templates:

    If no LA was mentioned - then it's the "same as the base creature" (i. e. +0 for the template itself)


    3.5 update booklet for Manual of the Planes don't lists them as "LA: ó" - thus, a fair play for a PC...
    Per the quote you provided, 'For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."' The word "sometimes" means that it is not the general rule. If it were, it'd say "the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is given as 'Same as the base creature'." One uses concrete wording, the other doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    Is the Diabolus eligible for its lesser version from PGtF ? If so it's only LA+1 :D
    Firstly, Diabolus is already an LA +1 race. Secondly, a lesser variant would remove the Outsider type from it, which is necessary for the PrC we're focusing on.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Firstly, Diabolus is already an LA +1 race. Secondly, a lesser variant would remove the Outsider type from it, which is necessary for the PrC we're focusing on.
    Divine minion gives it back. But would you lose your subtype with the lesser version ?

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    and some way to get the [Evil] subtype, such as the rituals in Savage Species.
    the ritual costs 50k unfortunately so doesn't work for early entry

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    the ritual costs 50k unfortunately so doesn't work for early entry
    Not for this, but it might if you started at higher levels. IIRC, the DMG mentions that you don't actually buy all of your equipment at higher levels, and sometimes you can get your +5 vorpal greatsword when you first left home, or something. If you apportion your WBL to "buy" the ritual back when you were a 1st level peon, then fluff it as something you were born as (or developed in some other way) as part of your backstory, it might work.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Per the quote you provided, 'For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."' The word "sometimes" means that it is not the general rule. If it were, it'd say "the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is given as 'Same as the base creature'." One uses concrete wording, the other doesn't.
    Not a general rule?..
    Oh, come on!
    What's you mean - most of templated creatures are weightless (some of tempates change weight), immobile (some of tempates change speed), and invisible (some of tempates change appearance)?
    Because I'm pretty sure none of tempates have "Weight (/Speed/Appearance): as base creature" line...

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Alright it looks like the DM is willing to allow:
    "someone paid for your ritual of gain a subtype, and now you owe them a huge favor" Rp plan, so i'll be taking my FoP first level as 4th level, whoo! (for a total of 2 levels at ECL 5)
    Last edited by Wombles; 2021-12-02 at 05:23 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    If you're getting the subtype essentially for free, maybe go Neraph as the race? It's one of the few LA +0 Outsider races.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    A thought just occurred.

    It's much cheaper to start as an LA 0 outsider, then buy a casting of polymorph any object to turn yourself into an [Evil] outsider than it is to buy the ritual in Savage Species, and once you're in the class, you don't need to retain the prereqs unless the class says you do, so dispelling isn't a problem from that angle.
    Doesnít Planar Chasuble give you Evil Subtype? If so thatís just a dip into Incarnate.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    If you're getting the subtype essentially for free, maybe go Neraph as the race? It's one of the few LA +0 Outsider races.
    Even if i'm a big ugly frog-face no one will know it since i'll be possessing stuff all day.
    Last edited by Wombles; 2021-12-02 at 05:55 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    Doesnít Planar Chasuble give you Evil Subtype? If so thatís just a dip into Incarnate.
    My crystal ball says "no."

    "When you wear the chasuble, you are considered a native on any plane with an alignment trait matching your chosen alignment (and gain the extraplanar subtype while on the Material Plane). While on such a plane, you ignore the effect of any alignment traits of the plane. For example, a lawful incarnate who shapes this soulmeld would be considered native to any plane with the lawful trait, including the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia and the Nine Hells of Baator. You also gain resistance 10 to a specific energy type, based on your alignment. Chaotic incarnates gain resistance to electricity 10, evil incarnates gain resistance to acid 10, good incarnates gain resistance to cold 10, and lawful incarnates gain resistance to fire 10."

    So you are considered native to a plane of your chosen alignment (and extraplanar to the Material Plane), ignore alignment traits of any plane you're "native" to, and gain energy resistance to one energy type. Binding it grants you gate 1/week.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-12-02 at 06:01 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wombles View Post
    Even if i'm a big ugly frog-face no one will know it since i'll be possessing stuff all day.
    You could even fluff the ritual as awakening dormant blood in you from a Hezrou in your ancestry...

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