A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Man, I don't know how you guys do it. I've been sitting in versions of this subclass for months, tweaking it every now and then, and I don't feel it's any closer to being finished than it was months ago.

    Anyways, for tips and tricks, here's what I've got so far,

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    Path of the Relentless
    The Kaskan barbarian tribe is nomadic, and travels seasonally to move to a more advantageous foraging and hunting grounds. The lands they must travel are inhospitable and deadly, and only the most determined survive the journey. They have evolved a culture of perseverance, strength and the mindset to grit their teeth through the most incredible hardships. The Path of the Relentless hails from the Kaskan, where failure isn't an options, and would only lead to certain death. You cannot slow down, you cannot stop, or you will be left behind for the elements to claim.

    For many, battle prowess comes naturally, through talent or innate abilities. For others, it comes through sheer, unmitigated stubbornness. Those of the Path of the Relentless would rather risk complete prostration than the possibility of failure. A character following this path taps into their very vitality to ensure victory. You don't rage because you want to, you rage because you have to.

    Relentless
    Starting at 3rd level, you would rather push yourself to your limits before accepting the possibility of failure. The first time you miss with an attack while raging you can use your Reaction to make a single Melee Weapon attack against the target. In addition, once per rage you can expend one hit die on your turn to gain Temporary hit points equal to 1d12 + your Constitution modifier.

    True Grit
    Starting at 3rd level, when you are subjected to a debilitating condition, you can power through its adverse effects through sheer grit. As an Action, you can spend 1 Hit Die to remove one Condition currently affecting you, or one level of Exhaustion. When you do so, you regain a number of hits points equal to your Constitution modififer. The Condition can be Charmed, Frightened, Restrained, or Poisoned.

    Perseverance 1
    Starting at 3rd level, you do not suffer the negative effects from having only one level of Exhaustion. If you have two levels of Exhaustion or more, Exhaustion affects you normally.

    Unstoppable
    Starting at 6th level, when you start your turn under the effect of the Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Stunned, Unconscious or Petrified condition, you can spend 2 Hit Dice to ignore the effect until the end of your turn. You regain the use of this ability at the end of a long rest. At 10th level, you gain an additional use of this ability per long rest.

    Perseverance 2
    Starting at 6th level, you do not suffer the negative effects from having only two level of Exhaustion. If you have three levels of Exhaustion or more, Exhaustion affects you normally.

    -----------------

    I honestly don't know if I hit my theme, my design goals, or even if my decision of going for active abilities instead of the passive abilities most other subclasses use. Hopefully someone here can help me see this from a different angle. Let me know if there's any change, modification, reduction or addition that you can spot right away that I might have missed!
    Should I give them 1 or 2 bonus hit dice maybe?


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    The following update was made after the 8th post of this thread:

    Path of the Relentless

    Nomadic Endurance
    When you choose this sublcass at 3rd level, you can go twice as long without food and water than normal.
    In addition, you ignore the negative effects of having only one level of Exhaustion. If you have two or more levels of Exhaustion, Exhaustion affects you normally.

    Relentless
    Starting at 3rd level, you would rather push yourself to your limits before accepting the possibility of failure.
    The first time you miss with an attack while raging you can use your Reaction to make a single Melee Weapon attack against the same target.
    In addition, once per rage, you can spend one Hit Die to gain Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d12 + your Constitution modifier.

    True Grit
    Starting at 3rd level you find a way to power through effects that would be debilitating to others.

    At the start of your turn, when you would be allowed to make a Saving Throw at the end of your turn to resist an ongoing effect, you can spend one Hit Die to make the Saving Throw immediately, adding your Hit Die to the result.

    Fast Recovery
    Starting at 6th level, when you spend any number of hit dice to regain hit points during a short rest, your level of exhaustion is reduced by 1.

    Unstoppable
    Starting at 6th level, when you start your turn under the effect of the Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Stunned, Unconscious or Petrified condition, you can spend 2 Hit Dice to ignore all instances of the listed conditions until the end of your turn. You regain the use of this ability at the end of a long rest.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    I feel like I'm missing the point here. When I think "barbarian" and "exhaustion" I immediately think of Path of the Berserker. Which you can't have, if you're on the Path of the Relentless. So much of this subclass seems based around solving a problem this subclass won't really have all that often.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    So much of this subclass seems based around solving a problem this subclass won't really have all that often.
    I use Distress in my game as a sort of catch-all condition, so it actually comes up pretty frequently.

    Roll a nat 1? Distress.
    Get reduced to 0 HP? Distress.
    Lose a skill Challenge? Distress.

    I decided to write "Exhaustion" in the subclass for accessibility, but the mechanics that apply to Exhaustion also apply to Distress.

    I don't think you'd ever play this in a game with no Wilderness travel, like an urban setting. At least I'd warn my player before doing so.

    But is the damage feature enough to be relevant?
    Do you think I should look to the berserker and simply add a condition immunity instead of True Grit?

    The point is "since Barbarians are all but immune to damage, conditions end up being one of their main weaknesses."
    This subclass was originally designed to give the Barbarian player some options for dealing with those conditions.

    For that purpose I was also thinking about adding to True Grit "if you are affected by a condition other than those listed, that would be resisted with a saving throw at the end of your turn, you can spend 1 Hit Dice to gain advantage on the saving throw."

    Because I think there are some spells that are just effects and not actual conditions that would fall into what this subclass should be able to deal with.

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I use Distress in my game as a sort of catch-all condition, so it actually comes up pretty frequently.
    Ah, the other boot of elvenkind drops. Yeah, that makes much more sense.

    Okay with that taken into consideration, I think you double-dipped and went too far. Removing a level of Exhaustion with a single hit die seems like a really good deal, especially in a party with a dedicated healer where Hit Dice might not need to be spent. If a 3rd level barbarian can spend their 3 Hit Dice to remove 3 whopping levels of Exhaustion, they're going to do it. Which in turn, means their other Exhaustion-based class ability won't kick in unless they have a fourth level. Perserverance 2 means, in all likelihood, they would need nine levels of Exhaustion before feeling the effecs. Meanwhile, the rest of the party is...dead, because six is fatal. The Distress rules you listed suggest the party can/should/will get Exhaustion fairly evenly spread among them, not like "the barbarian rolled five natural ones before anyone else got their second" disproportionate.

    Basically, it feels like you put too many "character points" into resisting Exhaustion. They'll be able to shrug off lethal amounts without any effects at all, which probably won't come up because the rest of the party will call it quits well before that, so the barbarian won't be able to use this power to its full extent. Could I convince you to trim that Exhaustion ability back and give them something else? Sounds like you're not sold on it either.

    I don't think condition immunity is the way to go -- especially restrained. But options to consider:
    1) You mention spells. True Grit could either allow a reroll of a saving throw against any effect they normally get to try at the end of their turn. You could also restrict which types of saving throws (against spells, only Wis/Con, etc)
    2) True Grit can only remove Exhaustion levels if used during a Short Rest and only once per Short Rest (you could probably just say "the first Hit Die you spend during a Short Rest removes one level o f Exhaustion" and also allow them to heal)
    3) Remove the Exhaustion from True Grit entirely, but allow them to ignore Exhaustion while Raging.
    4) When they remove a condition modifier (or spell?) with True Grit, they get XXX until the end of their next turn. Some kind of minor/moderate combat boost. Nothing for Exhaustion.

    That's just the first things that spring to mind. But, yeah, they trivialize Exhaustion to the point of overkill. They'll never realistically be in a situation where they can use the subclass to its fullest, their friends who aren't immune to Exhaustion will demand a Long Rest way before that happens.

    Interesting side note: these barbarians do not need to eat.

    Side note: some conditions bring other conditions to the party. For example, if you're Stunned you're Incapacitated. Perhaps the effects that remove/ignore a condition from the list, remove/ignore all of them from that liast? That way, the player and DM won't have to deal with any house of cards rules figuring out what they have to suppress.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    You are an absolute blessing! Thank you kind person!
    I'll give it some think and come back with a proper discussion.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I think you double-dipped and went too far.
    You're probably not wrong! Including Exhaustion into True Grit, and then adding Perseverance on top of that, is definitely too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    1) You mention spells. True Grit could either allow a reroll of a saving throw against any effect they normally get to try at the end of their turn. You could also restrict which types of saving throws (against spells, only Wis/Con, etc)
    2) True Grit can only remove Exhaustion levels if used during a Short Rest and only once per Short Rest (you could probably just say "the first Hit Die you spend during a Short Rest removes one level o f Exhaustion" and also allow them to heal)
    3) Remove the Exhaustion from True Grit entirely, but allow them to ignore Exhaustion while Raging.
    4) When they remove a condition modifier (or spell?) with True Grit, they get XXX until the end of their next turn. Some kind of minor/moderate combat boost. Nothing for Exhaustion.
    Thank you so much for these suggestion. I'm still mulling it over, because these are all really good ideas xD

    Spoiler
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    When you start your turn under the effects of a spell or an ability that allows you to make a Saving Throw at the end of your turn, you can spend 1 Hit Die to make the Saving Throw immediatel
    y. When you do so, you gain advantage on the roll and regain a number of hits points equal to your Constitution modififer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Interesting side note: these barbarians do not need to eat.
    That's the ribbon i've been missing all this time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Side note: some conditions bring other conditions to the party. For example, if you're Stunned you're Incapacitated. Perhaps the effects that remove/ignore a condition from the list, remove/ignore all of them from that liast? That way, the player and DM won't have to deal with any house of cards rules figuring out what they have to suppress.
    Yeah I'll change the wording so that the player is able to "ignore all instances of the following conditions..."

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Another Idea i had:

    Starting at 3rd level you find a way to power through effects that would be debilitating to others. You can spend a hit dice to in the following ways:


    - As a part of a short rest to reduce your level of exhaustion by 1.
    - At the start of your turn, when you would be allowed to make a Saving Throw against an ongoing effect, to make the Saving Throw immediately and with advantage.
    - As an action to become immune to the Frightened, Charmed or Poisoned condition for 1 hour.
    - While Raging to gain Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d12 + your Constitution modifier.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Update in the first post!

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Nomadic Endurance
    When you choose this sublcass at 3rd level, you can go twice as long without food and water than normal.
    In addition, you ignore the negative effects of having only one level of Exhaustion. If you have two or more levels of Exhaustion, Exhaustion affects you normally.

    Relentless
    Starting at 3rd level, you would rather push yourself to your limits before accepting the possibility of failure.
    The first time you miss with an attack while raging you can use your Reaction to make a single Melee Weapon attack against the same target.
    In addition, once per rage, you can spend one Hit Die to gain Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d12 + your Constitution modifier.

    True Grit
    Starting at 3rd level you find a way to power through effects that would be debilitating to others.
    At the start of your turn, when you would be allowed to make a Saving Throw at the end of your turn to resist an ongoing effect, you can spend one Hit Die to make the Saving Throw immediately, adding your Hit Die to the result.

    Fast Recovery
    Starting at 6th level, when you spend any number of hit dice to regain hit points during a short rest, your level of exhaustion is reduced by 1.

    Unstoppable
    Starting at 6th level, when you start your turn under the effect of the Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Stunned, Unconscious or Petrified condition, you can spend 2 Hit Dice to ignore all instances of the listed conditions until the end of your turn. You regain the use of this ability at the end of a long rest.
    There's some neat stuff in here, but it feels a bit crowded with five features in two levels and some of those also containing multiple parts. The whole exhaustion thing can probably just be a single ribbon since you don't have any way of generating it beyond starvation and/or sleep deprivation which you conveniently address.

    Nomadic Endurance: Yes this feels like the ribbon, and a good one. Does this also mean you only require half the normal food and water too? Anyways, bundling this with the exhaustion thing feels appropriate, maybe just simplify it as being able to ignore an instance of exhaustion once per long rest, or recover one level of exhaustion on a short as well as long rest (as long as you spend a Hit Die if you want to add that part).

    Relentless: s a general rule I don't like making features that use your reaction during your turn. Reactions are supposedly designed to be used outside of your turn, so I prefer maintaining that (although its of course possible to use your reaction on you turn, I just don't think its best practice).
    The second part is good stuff! Pre-emptively using Hit Die as THP instead of healing is neat and appropriate. Is there an action cost associated with it? Maybe just tie it into 'when you enter rage'.

    True Grit: I think this might be better suited being moved to the 6th level slot and merged with Fast Recovery somewhat (especially since I basically suggested merging that core benefit into nomadic endurance). I think it would work best with one passive and one active portion, for example passive being 'any time you need to make a save at the start or end of your turn you can choose whether you make that save at the start or the end', and active being 'you can spend Hit Die (and not add Con bonus, +1d12 is enough) to add to any saving throw you make'. I think that would hit the same notes you're going for and clean up the text while also being distinct from say the Zealot's Fanatical Focus which also comes along at 6th level.

    Fast Recovery: Already covered above in Nomadic Endurance.

    Unstoppable: Already covered above in True Grit.

    Hope this helps! Do you have anything in mind already for levels 10 and 14?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    There's some neat stuff in here, but it feels a bit crowded with five features in two levels and some of those also containing multiple parts.
    This has been the real issue from the start. It felt just as much a presentation issue as a mechanics one. Before getting your reply I even tried something like this, just to bundle things together:

    Nomadic Endurance:

    When you choose this sublcass at 3rd level, you can go twice as long without food and water than normal.

    Kaskan Rage

    Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, when you enter a rage you manifest the three tenets of Kaskan culture. While raging, you can use each of the following abilities once:

    Never Back Down: When you miss with an attack, you can use your Reaction to make a single Melee weapon attack against the same target.
    Never Give In: As a Bonus action on your turn, you can spend one Hit Die to gain temporary hit points equal to 1d12 + your Constitution modifier.
    Never Give Up: At the start of your turn, when you would be allowed to make a Saving Throw at the end of your turn to resist an ongoing effect, you can spend one Hit Die to make the Saving Throw immediately, adding your Hit Die to the result.

    Perseverance:
    Starting at 6th level, when you spend any number of hit dice to regain hit points during a short rest, your level of Wxhaustion is reduced by 1.

    Unstoppable:
    Starting at 10th level, when you start your turn under the effect of the Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Stunned, Unconscious or Petrified condition, you can spend 2 Hit Dice to ignore all instances of the listed conditions until the end of your turn. You regain the use of this ability at the end of a long rest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Maybe just simplify it as being able to ignore an instance of exhaustion once per long rest
    This is a very clean solution, not gonna lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    The second part is good stuff! Pre-emptively using Hit Die as THP instead of healing is neat and appropriate. Is there an action cost associated with it? Maybe just tie it into 'when you enter rage'.
    Originally it was "when you enter a rage", but I ultimately ended up changing it into a Bonus action, once per rage. It gives the player a better chance of making a judgement call whether he should use the feature or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    True Grit: ... I think it would work best with one passive and one active portion, for example passive being 'any time you need to make a save at the start or end of your turn you can choose whether you make that save at the start or the end', and active being 'you can spend Hit Die (and not add Con bonus, +1d12 is enough) to add to any saving throw you make'.
    That feels scary :S All end-of-turn saving throws become start-of-turn saving throws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Hope this helps! Do you have anything in mind already for levels 10 and 14?
    It helps a bunch! It's really hard to have a theme and know what you want a subclass to do, and then try to find the appropriate mechanics to fulfill that fantasy. :O A big part of it is just hearing from as many homebrewers on how they would implement each little feature. Getting different phrasings and way to translate the theme into mechanics gives me much more sliders to work with, which I can use to tune the subclass into something a bit more reasonable. You have extended my vocabulary for this subclass quite a bit. I'll have a tinker and post what I come up with :D

    I'm going to nail down 3rd and 6th level first, just to keep it simple, then I'll start thinking about 10th and 14.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Your ideas implemented would look something like

    Nomadic Endurance
    You can go twice as long without food or water. In addition, you can choose to reduce your level of Exhaustion by 1, once per long rest.

    Spoiler
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    This is actually really good during wilderness travel, which usually racks up levels of exhaustion over multiple days. The prerequiste is of course to be allowed to to take long rests, which isn't always possible in the wilderness.


    Relentless
    Once per rage, when you miss with an attack, you can use your bonus action and one Hit Die to make a single melee weapon attack and gain temporary hit points equal to 1d12 + your Constitution modifier.

    Spoiler
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    I decided to keep the "when you miss with an attack", just to keep the flavor of pressing on when faced with the possibility of failure


    True Grit
    Starting at 6th level, when you would be allowed to make a Saving Throw at the end of your turn to resist an ongoing effect, you can roll the Saving Throw at the start of your turn instead. When you do so, you can choose to spend one Hit Die to gain advantage on the roll.

    Spoiler
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    This feels really good


    Unstoppable
    Starting at 10th level, when you start your turn under the effect of the Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Stunned, Unconscious or Petrified condition, you can spend one Hit Die to ignore all instances of the listed conditions until the end of your turn. You regain the use of this ability at the end of a long rest.

    Spoiler
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    I buffed it to costing only one HD. 1 / long rest is limitations enough.


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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    Nomadic Endurance
    My earlier concern is lessened. Normally food and water loss cause Exhaustion to pile up. This barbarian subclass can shrug off the Exhaustion from thirst until they also run out of food, which takes a week or more. Then they get more Exhaustion than even this class ability can handle.

    There aren't a ton of situations in which a party will be without food and water for an entire week, and if there were, the rest of the party would be dead anyhow. So I don't think this is overpowered.

    Relentless
    I don't know if there's a reason to require them to miss, if they can only do this once/rage anyhow.

    True Grit
    I won't comment much on this because I can't off the top of my head remember seeing anything else like this to compare it to. I think it's fine.

    Unstoppable
    Again, I'm not sure you need to spend a Hit Die if you can only do it once/Long Rest anyhow.

    Leaving aside the double-dipping into restrictions, there's nothing here I feel is too strong or too weak.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Barbarian Subclass - Using Hit Dice to negate Conditions!

    I feel the same about the restrictions. It's more about role-playing cues for the player than anything mechanical. It's just a gentle helping hand to describe how these Mechanics fit into the narrative. -shrug-

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