5e Generic Classes

[paladinn]

Not sure if this has been brought up here. In 3e UA, 3 "generic classes" were featured. They are thematically very similar to the Sidekick classes from 5e UA and Tasha's. But that's where the resemblance ends. In 3e, many class features were repackaged as feats that could be taken by the generic classes. So if you had a Warrior character, you could take feats that would give you some paladin or ranger or barbarian or even rogue abilities. And if you were a Spellcaster, you could choose spells from any spell list. Experts were the ultimate skill monkeys, and features for bards and such could be made into feats.

Has anything like this been developed for 5e? I know feats are more powerful in 5e, but I think the class feat/ures might make good feats.

Thoughts/input?

[Greywander]

Sounds like the "adventurer" class someone made, where almost all class features were reworked as feats, and the class itself just gets lots and lots of feats.

At one point, I had also taken a stab at a similar idea, though I didn't rework any class features into feats. Mostly it boiled down to three choices for your primary class, and then the same three choices for subclass, allowing a sort of mix'n'match class. Might was basically a Champion fighter, Cunning was a mix of rogue with bardic inspiration refluffed as "conspiracy dice" (where everything you use it for is flavored as if it was part of some master plan), and then Mystery was spellcasting. I never did finish it, not sure if the idea is worth revisiting.

Edit: This also reminds of a different homebrew I wrote up, one I'm actually pretty proud of and I think works pretty well (if used properly): simple custom races. It's a similar idea to what you're proposing, only for races instead of classes. The problem is that it treats every racial trait as being equal in value, when clearly they are not. You could apply similar logic to classes, but there's an even greater disparity in the power level of class features, so I think ultimately it wouldn't work as well.

[PattThe]

IIRC there are free rulesets or something included in the starter kit that have boiled down minimalistic classes at the very least that wotc has always had out since 5e launched.

[paladinn]

Sounds like the "adventurer" class someone made, where almost all class features were reworked as feats, and the class itself just gets lots and lots of feats.

At one point, I had also taken a stab at a similar idea, though I didn't rework any class features into feats. Mostly it boiled down to three choices for your primary class, and then the same three choices for subclass, allowing a sort of mix'n'match class. Might was basically a Champion fighter, Cunning was a mix of rogue with bardic inspiration refluffed as "conspiracy dice" (where everything you use it for is flavored as if it was part of some master plan), and then Mystery was spellcasting. I never did finish it, not sure if the idea is worth revisiting.

Edit: This also reminds of a different homebrew I wrote up, one I'm actually pretty proud of and I think works pretty well (if used properly): simple custom races. It's a similar idea to what you're proposing, only for races instead of classes. The problem is that it treats every racial trait as being equal in value, when clearly they are not. You could apply similar logic to classes, but there's an even greater disparity in the power level of class features, so I think ultimately it wouldn't work as well.

Wow, the Adventurer "class" definitely has a lot of the "feat-izing" of class abilities that generic classes would need. I'm going to be using a lot of that as this progresses; but I still want to keep the Warrior/Expert/Caster structure. I can present my results here if anyone is interested.

Thanks!

[Eric Diaz]

Wow, the Adventurer "class" definitely has a lot of the "feat-izing" of class abilities that generic classes would need. I'm going to be using a lot of that as this progresses; but I still want to keep the Warrior/Expert/Caster structure. I can present my results here if anyone is interested.

Thanks!

I'm interested! I'm trying something similar, but I am having a hard time.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-version-of-5e

[paladinn]

Taking a shot at the Warrior, the "simplest" of the 3 generic classes.

A Warrior would get d10 HD of course, and proficiency in all weapons and medium armor (at least - pondering giving access to All armor) and all but tower shields. ASI's at L4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 16 and 19. Extra attack at L5, 11 and 20. The only other basic warrior feature is at L1: a warrior gets either a Fighting Style or a "Martial Role" (from Tasha's - a +2 to hit roles!) It is supposed to be generic, after all.

In theory, each empty level would be eligible for a feat. This gives a warrior a total of 9, without sacrificing ASI's. This would let a warrior grab ranger feats, paladin feats, barbarian feats, even rogue feats.

I'm going to be flagging feats as Generic, Martial, Expert or Caster. A warrior can take any Martial feat. S/he can take any Expert feat at a basic level. No "improved", "greater" or "mastery" feats that aren't martial or generic feats. No Caster feats unless s/he takes a level of caster.

I'm also wondering about separating these feat-ized class features from "normal" 5e feats, which are very powerful compared to 3e. I don't know that we want a warrior running around with 9 5e-style feats. Or do we?

Thoughts?

[Greywander]

Actually, is there even a point in not just making it a single class? I was thinking that you could maybe have a trio of classes for non-casters, half-casters, and full casters, but even then you could just make access to each new spell level a feat, just like in the Adventurer class I linked to earlier. And while I could see maybe separating casters from non-casters, I'm not sure what the meaningful distinction would be between a warrior and an expert. It seems like that would only really matter if you're pre-baking in class features to the class, instead of allowing full customization via feats.

Hmm, maybe you could do it like this? You have three classes: warrior, expert, and caster. You choose one as a primary, and one as a secondary, which can be the same one.

As a primary, warrior gets: 1d10 HD, martial weapons, medium armor, and shields, and two skills.
As a primary, expert gets: 1d8 HD, simple weapons, light armor, and three skills with one expertise.
As a primary, caster gets: 1d6 HD, select weapons (e.g. club, dagger, sling, darts, staff, etc.), no armor, two skills, and full caster progression.

As a secondary, warrior adds: +1 to HD size, martial weapons, +1 to armor proficiency (e.g. light to medium, medium to heavy).
As a secondary, expert adds: +1 skill and +1 expertise.
As a secondary, caster adds: +1 cantrip, one 1st level spell, and one 2nd level spell, with the latter two getting one free casting per long rest.

Basically, you're changing the base level features like hit dice or number of skills, things that are generally only determined or granted at 1st level. Casting is different, but it's locked behind a class with smaller hit dice and fewer proficiencies. Now, you could make these into feats as well, e.g. have a feat to upgrade your HD size, but this would be another way to do it.

[paladinn]

I'd like to keep as close as possible to the 3 classes as defined either in UA/Tasha's or in 3e. Warriors are the front-line fighters, with the best armor, weapons and attack rolls (either from the Martial Role feature or a Fighting Style). They also get the most feats; other than ASI's and extra attacks, All their abilities are feats. But that also gives them a lot of flexibility. I think of an ultimate undead-hunter: let a warrior take Favored Foe: Undead and Divine Smite and other combat-oriented feats and let him/her go to town!

Experts would end up being the major skill-monkeys, likely with just enough basic combat feats to survive. Casters would get the fewest feats and skills; but hey, they can cast from any spell list. If they take even one divine/cleric spell, they can qualify for Turn Undead. A "white mage" would only need to take one Cure Wounds spell, and s/he can cast it at any spell level as s/he levels up. Still working on all that tho..lol.

[Greywander]

I guess it's a question of how much you want pre-baked into the class vs. how much you want to leave it open to customization via class-features-turned-feats. If you lean towards the latter, then there's not much point in having more than one class, you just make everything a feat and let the player choose. If you lean towards the former, then most of your features will be determined by your class, with only a little customization via feats (perhaps equivalent to a subclass).

[Bjarkmundur]

I honestly think you got it pretty much figured out. It's just a lot of busywork and playtesting -shrug-

Take the Tasha sidekicks, and add a custom feat progression with your class-feats. The caster is not overpowered at all. If I remember correctly the tasha sidekick doesn't get a full progression, and starts with just 1 spell. This makes the caster balanced against the other two, and gives plenty of design space left for class feats.

Just make sure you give up right away on trying to model it after 5e. It might be 5e inspired, but that should be where the similarities end. Instead focus on fulfilling player fantasies, making fun playstyles, having clear design goals and flexible themes. It's obviously going to be mostly people why like customizing and creating their own stuff, so lean into that. Make the feats sound generic, so a player can fill in his own flavor. You could even suggest a few different themes with each class feat. Think about it, does Rage really have to be "Rage" or can it be raflavored to fit any class?

Rage is a dance, a performance, a trance, an alchemical drug, a mechanical override, an animalistic primal shapeshift form, or a abjuration spell that encases the caster in a blue translucent armor.

Does sneak attack REALLY have to only apply to finesse weapons? Or can it be limited to "attacks made with one hand and not using a shield"?

Leave the spellcasting for last. It's going to be a pain, and its easier once you know what you're balancing it against. Same with channel divinities and smites.

Bardic Performances are definetly making a return.

.... wait isn't Pathfinder 2 also "gain a feat every other level that defines how your class is played"?

I started a similar project in 4e. It's long lost to time now, but it was REALLY fun to do :D

[paladinn]

So on to the Expert (looking for a better name)

Experts get d8 HD, light armor and simple weapon proficiency, and 5 (or more) skills, and another at L13. Since the expert is supposed to be the skill-monkey, would it be appropriate to give them more?

I compared the features of the Expert from UA, the Expert from Tasha's, the base Rogue from the PHB and the Thief subclass from the PHB. It's a bit more pre-defined than the Warrior. The main feature is Expertise, which doubles one's proficiency bonus with 2 skills. This is given at L1, 6 and 17. So by L17, all proficient skills will have Double proficiency. L2 gets Cunning Action; L3 gets Jack of Many Trades, which gives half proficiency for Non-proficient skills. L11 gets Reliable Talent. L15 gets Sharp/Slippery Mind. L20 gets Stroke of Luck.

The UA version gave one extra attack at L5, but I wonder if that intrudes on the Warrior role too much.

This leaves 5 levels open for feats without sacrificing ASI's. Is that sufficient, or should some of the class abilities be dropped to make room for more feats?

Thanks for the feedback!

[Greywander]

Are you factoring in the two skills you get from your background? Even rogues only get four class skills. Also consider giving the expert additional languages and/or tool proficiencies (which are treated as interchangeable when customizing a background, so you might do the same here). I'd also consider giving the expert something similar to bardic inspiration, since it's mechanically and thematically on point. A rogue/bard mashup without any spells sounds about like what the expert is supposed to encompass.

It kind of sounds like these classes are going to be classes unto themselves, not getting as many extra feats as the OP initially suggested. The additional feats are acting more like a subclass. For reference, most subclasses get four or five level's worth of features, so five extra feats should be comparable.

[dmhelp]

Revised Fighter - use Fighter except as follows (ASIs still at 4/8/12/16/19):
Armor: medium armor & shields
Skills: Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Persuasion, Religion, Stealth, Survival

1 Choose Heavy Armor/Second Wind, Favored Enemy x3/two skills, or Unarmored Defense (AC 12 + [str mod] or AC 13 + [dex mod]; no shields); Choose Martial Arts (damage increases at levels 5/11/17; may use while wearing light armor [or heavy armor if chose Second Wind] but not with shields), Reckless Attack, or Fighting Style (+2 ranged weapon attack damage, +2 two handed melee weapon attack damage, Dueling, or Two Weapon Fighting; at level 11 TWF offhand does double base weapon dice; at level 17 damage bonus increase to +3 or TWF offhand does triple base weapon dice)
2 Choose Action Surge (1/short rest, increasing to 2/short rest at level 11), Ki (ki points = class level with Deflect Missiles, Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind), or Rage (damage bonus increases at 9 and 16, rages increase at 3/6/12/17/20; may perform in heavy armor if chose Second Wind)
3 Choose subclass from Barbarian (requires Rage), Fighter, Ranger (ignore additional spells), or Monk (requires Ki, Martial Arts, & Unarmored Defense)
5 Extra Attack, Fighter Technique
6 Fighter Technique, Ki-Empowered Strikes (if chose Martial Arts)
7 Subclass power 2
9 Fighter Technique
10 Subclass power 3
11 Extra Attack (2)
13 Fighter Technique
14 Fighter Technique
15 Subclass power 4
17 Fighter Technique
18 Fighter Technique
20 Extra Attack (3)

Fighter Techniques:
Brutal Critical (increases to two dice at level 13)
Danger Sense
Exhaustion Resistance (requires Favored Enemy or Second Wind; treats exhaustion level as two less, e.g. death at exhaustion level 8)
Fast Movement (requires Favored Enemy or Unarmored Defense)
Feral Instinct (requires Rage)
Indomitable (1/long rest, may use 2/long rest at level 13)
Slow Fall (requires Monk subclass; also gain Unarmored Movement Improvement at level 9)
Stunning Strike (requires Ki; use str or dex for DC but limited to once per turn)
Stillness of Mind (requires level 9 & Monk subclass)
Purity of Body (requires level 13 & Monk subclass)
Relentless Rage (requires level 13 & Barbarian subclass)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (requires level 13 & Monk subclass)
Resilience (requires level 14; gain two additional save proficiencies)
Fighter subclass power 5 (requires level 17 & Fighter subclass)
Persistent Rage (requires level 17 & Rage)
Indomitable Might (requires level 18 & Rage)
Perfect Self (requires level 18 & Ki)
Primal Champion (requires level 18; can choose 2 stats from str/dex/con)

---
Revised Wizard - use Wizard except as follows (ASIs still at 4/8/12/16/19):
Skills: Arcana, Deception, History, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Persuasion, Religion

1 Spellcasting (intelligence; from Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard lists without eldritch blast/hex; spells known = 3 + 3/4 level, max 15); Choose subclass from Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (all powers intelligence based)
2 Font of Magic
3 Wizard Power
6 Subclass power 2
10 Subclass power 3
11 Wizard Power
14 Subclass power 4
18 Wizard Power
20 Wizard Power

Wizard Powers:
*Eldritch Invocation (choose 2; may replace 1 with a Pact Boon [requires Warlock subclass; also grants access to eldritch blast/hex]; grants 2 more for each additional time chosen; may change individual invocations on level up; intelligence based)
*Metamagic (choose 2; if chosen multiple times grants 4 extra sorcery points for each additional time chosen; may change individual metamagics on level up)
*Ritual Casting/Spellbook (inscribe ritual spells and level 0-5 spells into pact tome or spellbook; may prepare int mod level 0-5 spells from book, and may change prepared spells on a short rest; if later chosen a second time may inscribe/prepare up to level 9 spells)
Sorcerous Restoration (requires level 18)
*Spell Mastery (requires level 18; spells can be known or in spellbook)
Timeless Body (requires level 18; as Druid)
Arcane Release (requires level 20; as Improved Divine Inspiration but any inscribed or known spell)

* May be chosen more than once

---
Revised Cleric - use Cleric except as follows (ASIs still at 4/8/12/16/19):
Skills: Arcana, Animal Handling, Athletics, Deception, History, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Persuasion, Religion, Survival

1 Ritual Casting/Spellcasting (choose Cleric or Druid list at level one); Choose subclass from Cleric (charisma casting), Druid (wisdom casting; also gains Druidic; Moon Druid Wild Shape starts at CR 1/4 until level 2 is gained and must choose Wild Shape at that time), Paladin (charisma casting; at level 1 gain 1st level War Domain powers but with Oath spells instead of Domain spells; Paladin Channel Divinity delayed until level 2 [if chosen]), or Warlock (charisma casting; may choose one expanded spell list spell and one expanded spell list/Warlock spell from each level 1-5 [i.e. two spells of each level] that are automatically prepared as domain spells, can only be changed on level up)
2 Cleric Base Supplication
5 Destroy Undead (if chose Turn Undead; upgrades at level 8, 11, 14, & 17)
6 *Subclass power 2 (or power 3 if Cleric subclass)
10 *Subclass power 3 (or power 4 if Cleric subclass)
11 Cleric Supplication
14 *Subclass power 4 (or power 5 if Cleric subclass)
18 Cleric Supplication
20 Cleric Supplication

Cleric Base Supplications:
Channel Divinity (2/short rest; gain choice of Turn Undead plus one Cleric/Paladin Channel Divinity or two Cleric/Paladin Channel Divinity’s [may choose from other subclasses if not assigned enough options by chosen subclass])
**Eldritch Invocation (choose 2; may replace 1 with a Pact Boon; grants 2 more for each additional time chosen; may change individual invocations on level up; spellcasting ability based)
Wild Shape (may not transform in metal armor/shields; upgrades at level 4 & 8)

Cleric Supplications:
Aura of Protection (+3 saves 30’ radius)
Beast Spells (requires Wild Shape)
Divine Smite (may also be used with unarmed strike or natural weapons; necrotic or radiant damage; cannot be used on the same turn as Eldritch Smite)
**Eldritch Invocation (as above)
Archdruid (requires level 20 & Beast Spells)
Improved Divine Intervention (requires level 20)

* If the power uses Channel Divinity/Wild Shape (and it wasn’t selected at level 2) then have the option of taking a different subclass similar tier power (e.g. at level 10 a Vengeance Paladin that lacks Channel Divinity could take Divine Strike from a Cleric Domain instead of Soul of Vengeance [which is based on Channel Divinity])
** May be chosen more than once

---
Revised Rogue – use Rogue except as follows (ASIs still at 4/8/12/16/19):
Skills: All

1 Expertise; Choose Halfcaster (Spellcasting from one class list with corresponding casting ability mod; as a half caster but with 2 first level cantrips/spells at level 1 and cantrip progression as a Bard of half level; spells known = 3 + half level; Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight can later add Wizard spell list access [with option for intelligence based casting] & additional cantrips but doesn’t add additional spells known or spell slots) or Sneak Attack; Choose martial weapons (all), Thieves’ Cant, or three languages/tools
2 Rogue Talent
3 Choose subclass from Bard (requires Bardic Inspiration & Halfcaster), Fighter, Ranger (ignore additional spells if not Halfcaster), or Rogue (some subclasses require Sneak Attack)
5 Rogue Talent
6 Expertise
7 Rogue Talent
9 Subclass power 2
10 Rogue Talent
11 Choose Action Surge (2/short rest), Jack of All Trades (+3 to all ability checks that do not already benefit from Expertise/double proficiency), or Reliable Talent
13 Subclass power 3
14 Rogue Talent
15 Rogue Talent
17 Rogue Talent
18 Rogue Talent
20 Rogue Talent

Rogue Talents:
Bardic Inspiration d8 (2 + level/5 uses, regain on short rest)
Countercharm/Song of Rest 2d6
Cunning Action
Fighting Style Blind Fighting (Blind Sight/Detect Invis 10’)
Fighting Style Two Weapon Fighting (if has Extra Attack then at level 11 offhand also does double base weapon dice)
Jack of All Spells (requires Halfcaster; add another class spell list, can use any available spell list ability mod to cast)
Slippery Mind (choose one other save if already has wis)
Unarmored Defense (AC 12 + [str mod] or AC 13 + [dex mod]; no shields)
Versatile Sneak Attack (requires Sneak Attack; removes finesse requirement)
Extra Attack (requires level 5 & Halfcaster)
Spell Sneak Attack (requires level 5 & Halfcaster; 1d6/three levels damage with spell attacks that otherwise meet the same qualifications as Sneak Attack)
Uncanny Dodge (requires level 5 & Sneak Attack)
Evasion (requires level 7 & Sneak Attack)
Land’s Stride (requires level 7)
Magical Secrets (requires level 7 & Halfcaster; increases spells known by 2 chosen from any spell list with upgrades at levels 14 & 17 [i.e. 6 total secrets at 17])
Poison Immunity (requires level 10)
Bardic Inspiration d12 (requires level 15 & Bardic Inspiration d8)
Improved Attunement (requires level 15; allows attunement with 4 magic items)
Subclass power 4 (requires level 15 & a subclass that has 4 powers)
Superior Inspiration (requires level 15 & Bardic Inspiration d8)
Elusive (requires level 18 & Sneak Attack)
Stroke of Luck (requires level 18)
Foeslayer (requires level 20; add int or wis mod to all attack damage rolls)

[paladinn]

How/does this relate to the generic classes?

[Kane0]

Not sure if this has been brought up here. In 3e UA, 3 "generic classes" were featured. They are thematically very similar to the Sidekick classes from 5e UA and Tasha's. But that's where the resemblance ends. In 3e, many class features were repackaged as feats that could be taken by the generic classes. So if you had a Warrior character, you could take feats that would give you some paladin or ranger or barbarian or even rogue abilities. And if you were a Spellcaster, you could choose spells from any spell list. Experts were the ultimate skill monkeys, and features for bards and such could be made into feats.

Has anything like this been developed for 5e? I know feats are more powerful in 5e, but I think the class feat/ures might make good feats.

Thoughts/input?

I think easiest way to do it would be to adjust the sidekicks a bit. Instead of giving out lots of ASIs and turning class features into feats, at certain levels just let them pick from a small list of features you deem appropriate (likely where subclass features would normally go). So for example:

Warrior:
Level 1: Fighting Style or Martial Role
Level 2: Second Wind (1)
Level 3: Improved Critical or Danger Sense
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: Extra Attack (1)
Level 6: Fighting Style or Magical Attacks
Level 7: Battle Readiness
Level 8: ASI
Level 9: Indomitable (1) or Brutal Critical (1)
Level 10: Improved Defence or Aura of Courage
Level 11: Extra Attack (2)
Level 12: ASI
Level 13: Indomitable (2) or Brutal Critical (2)
Level 14: Fighting Style or Extra Save Proficiency
Level 15: Superior Critical or Uncanny Dodge
Level 16: ASI
Level 17: Indomitable (3) or Brutal Critical (3)
Level 18: Second Wind (2)
Level 19: ASI
Level 20: Extra Attack (3)

You can add in more specific or fantastical abilities like Favored Enemy at level 1, Slow Fall or Song of Rest at level 3, Cunning Action at level 6, etc but for this example I was trying to stick to more standard stuff.

[Saelethil]

I think easiest way to do it would be to adjust the sidekicks a bit. Instead of giving out lots of ASIs and turning class features into feats, at certain levels just let them pick from a small list of features you deem appropriate (likely where subclass features would normally go). So for example:

Warrior:
Level 1: Fighting Style or Martial Role
Level 2: Second Wind (1)
Level 3: Improved Critical or Danger Sense
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: Extra Attack (1)
Level 6: Fighting Style or Magical Attacks
Level 7: Battle Readiness
Level 8: ASI
Level 9: Indomitable (1) or Brutal Critical (1)
Level 10: Improved Defence or Aura of Courage
Level 11: Extra Attack (2)
Level 12: ASI
Level 13: Indomitable (2) or Brutal Critical (2)
Level 14: Fighting Style or Extra Save Proficiency
Level 15: Superior Critical or Uncanny Dodge
Level 16: ASI
Level 17: Indomitable (3) or Brutal Critical (3)
Level 18: Second Wind (2)
Level 19: ASI
Level 20: Extra Attack (3)

You can add in more specific or fantastical abilities like Favored Enemy at level 1, Slow Fall or Song of Rest at level 3, Cunning Action at level 6, etc but for this example I was trying to stick to more standard stuff.

I really like this. I think something like the Warlock Invocation system would also work really well with abilities having level prerequisites.

[Kane0]

I really like this. I think something like the Warlock Invocation system would also work really well with abilities having level prerequisites.

Yeah thats another quick and easy way to handle it. Set a few features like extra attack and ASIs in stone and the rest are basically invocations

[paladinn]

I think easiest way to do it would be to adjust the sidekicks a bit. Instead of giving out lots of ASIs and turning class features into feats, at certain levels just let them pick from a small list of features you deem appropriate (likely where subclass features would normally go). So for example:

Warrior:
Level 1: Fighting Style or Martial Role
Level 2: Second Wind (1)
Level 3: Improved Critical or Danger Sense
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: Extra Attack (1)
Level 6: Fighting Style or Magical Attacks
Level 7: Battle Readiness
Level 8: ASI
Level 9: Indomitable (1) or Brutal Critical (1)
Level 10: Improved Defence or Aura of Courage
Level 11: Extra Attack (2)
Level 12: ASI
Level 13: Indomitable (2) or Brutal Critical (2)
Level 14: Fighting Style or Extra Save Proficiency
Level 15: Superior Critical or Uncanny Dodge
Level 16: ASI
Level 17: Indomitable (3) or Brutal Critical (3)
Level 18: Second Wind (2)
Level 19: ASI
Level 20: Extra Attack (3)

You can add in more specific or fantastical abilities like Favored Enemy at level 1, Slow Fall or Song of Rest at level 3, Cunning Action at level 6, etc but for this example I was trying to stick to more standard stuff.

The thought process behind this seems much like the one behind the UA Warrior class to begin with. Take the Fighter base class and plug abilities (Champion or Barbarian or ?) in the levels where subclass abilities would go. I don't think the end result is much beyond creating new subclasses, or rolling your own.

It's not a bad approach; but I've wanted to open things up a bit and approximate what was possible with 3e generic classes. Outside of some limits (caster feats being reserved for casters; "advanced" expert and warrior feats being reserved to those classes), a character can take most any feat/ure. Want a stealthy ranger-ish? Take a warrior, grab Favored Foe, Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack, maybe Unarmored Defense. You grab the stuff you want and ignore the stuff you don't. Why be stuck with a bunch of ribbon features you don't want and might not use?

[Saelethil]

Yeah thats another quick and easy way to handle it. Set a few features like extra attack and ASIs in stone and the rest are basically invocations

If I have some time this weekend I might try putting something together.

[zlefin]

That adventurer class was quite neat looking. I'm glad whoever made it made it. It was a good read.

[paladinn]

I'm leaning toward just using the sorcerer spell progression for the caster, regardless of which list(s) you use. Still pondering the metamagic/sorc point thing.

The biggest question I'm batting around is "How many 'class features' should the expert have?" Warriors only have a few: ASI's, Fighting style/ Martial role and Extra Attack. Everything else is feat/ures. Experts, in addition to being by far the skill monkeys, also get features like Expertise and Reliable Talent, which are totally in the Skill Monkey wheelhouse. I'm just not sure about things like Cunning Action, Jack of Many Trades, Sharp Mind and Stroke of Luck. They don't scream "rogue" like Sneak Attack does, so they might be more "generic"; but taking them does take away available feat/ure slots.

Speaking of feat/ures, I'm thinking to use that name for the "class features" that have been turned into feats. Or is there a better name? Also, should there feat/ures be kept separate from the official 5e feats, or mingled?

Also, in my latest "edition" of this, experts actually get as many ASI's as warriors. Do you think that's ok, or how many should experts get?

Thanks for all the input, folks!

[paladinn]

Still pondering.. for generic classes, maybe the first 2 levels have to be of your base class (Warrior, Expert, Caster). You can MC starting at L3; this is in keeping with the subclasses model of 5e. For casters, those first 2 levels have to focus on arcane, divine, primal or pact. After L3, you can choose from whatever list you wish (as in 3e). Warriors at L1 get Martial Role or a Fighting Style (if you intend to focus on a specific weapon) and later Extra Attacks; Experts get Expertise and later Reliable Talent. After that, it's pretty much spells for casters and feat/ures for warriors and experts.