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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    THE SPECIALIST WIZARD SUBCLASSES!

    Yes, the ones from the PHB.

    Well, I don't know if their "intended fantasy" was ever supposed be that you are stuck with one magic school (because they are all based off of the illusionist class from bygone eras of D&D, and even that class came with Shadow Evocation -or "Shadow Magic"- and Shadow Conjuration from the get-go, allowing an illusionist to cast non-illusion magic), but I actually DO want to play a wizard that can only learn spells from a particular school.

    There's a youtube channel that made a bunch of videos about specialist wizards (he didn't do one for the diviner or the transmuter, but the druid video introduces a unique concept for wild shape and he did say that always having locate object prepared was amazing), where he adds class abilities that complement the spell selection, turning specialist wizards practically into their own class! (Or possibly replacing some classes, from what I've seen.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXE...MTHxq5XYawusw-

    His conjurer video is mostly complaining about the "Summon Monster" series of spells. I think that you could make a cool class based off of the Final Fantasy summoner and its espers/aeons/eidolions, however.

    In the old school renaissance, there's an idea known as "the tyranny of magic missile", and it comes from the fact that before magic missile was introduced in Supplement 1:Greyhawk, the only direct damage spells were the 3rd level Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Before then, this forced (yet, some people would say freed) the magic user to use his or her brains and lead the enemy over a cliff with dancing lights and complimented the "combat as war" vs. "combat as sport" dynamic. And I just think that a real illusionist (or diviner, or enchanter, or abjurer) should use way more of the out-of-combat spells and fight with a crossbow or something. Also, necromancers shouldn't throw fireballs.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Soulknife is bad.

    Every psionic blade character I’ve seen in popular media fights in direct, hand to hand combat using that blade.

    Yet somehow, Wizards managed to design the central feature of the subclass in such a way that it specifically disincentivizes fighting in melee and instead rewards throwing the blades.

    You can’t make opportunity attacks with it. You can’t use Booming Blade with it (even if you ignore the dumb component problem). You can’t get extra attacks from ally features with it.

    Why? Was it that hard to just make it a weapon that you can choose to use whenever you would make an attack?

    Battlesmith is good.

    Maybe it’s hard to nail down an exact archetype for this, but playing one everything just felt like it worked right. You can be an elven weaponsmith who makes his longsword look impossibly light and graceful, and whose longbow never misses. You can be a dwarven crafter whose creations are extensions of his body. Your pet can be a golem, a part-corpse part-construct you animate again and again, a favored pet whose soul you bound into a construct upon their death, or yeah just a robodog if that’s what you want.

    It feels like a magical crafter who can make wonders no one can reproduce, and you can put whatever skin you want on top of that.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2021-12-01 at 05:33 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Hexblades can't get a break. In 3.5, they have a solid (IMO) thematic componnent, but utterly botched mechanics. In 5E, it's the other way around.
    They were ok in 4e, for all that they were only around for a brief time at the end. I know a lot of 5e players skipped 4e, and fair enough, but it did some things well (much more intuitive combat encounter design, 'elite' and 'solo' monsters were useful concepts that probably should have stayed around). 4e's hexblades were effectively their own class - only using warlock for a few of their powers, and effectively had unique versions of the warlock patrons as their own subclasses, each with a unique fancy summoned hexblade weapon.

    That informs my own preferred hexblade/bladlock fix: remove them from warlock altogether. Make them their own half-pact-caster class, related to but independent from warlock the same way paladins are to clerics or rangers to druids.

    Then warlock can be focused more on caster/blaster elements - including giving them eldritch blast as a class feature rather than a cantrip, which then lets you give each warlock patron their own unique twist on eldritch blast.

    Hexblade gets to be its own class, with hit dice and equipment proficiencies appropriate for a melee class from level one without accidentally giving those things to casty/blasty warlocks, who should have to invest some resources - whether spell slots or feats - on defense, like wizards and sorcerers are expected to do. Hexblade also gets to have their own version of the full range of warlock patrons, but with subclass features also tuned for a melee weapon using class, and you don't have to worry about a melee class getting full leveled spell access since they'll be on a half caster progression like paladins and rangers.


    But this adds an extra base class to the game, and WotC doesn't seem to want to do that, so... *shrug*.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Honestly. I love 5e Arcane Trickster. I really truly do. It's a fun class with a lot of flavorful, useful abilities. It also has access to spellcasting to supplement it's abilities. However, it is truly criminal how small a selection of spells and the like they get.

    • There is truly no reason that we couldn't have gotten at least Paladin/Ranger spell slots. Getting access to 2nd level wizard spells at 7th and 3rd at 13! is a huge slap in the face.
    • If they're going to limit us to only Enchantment/Illusion, but grant us out of school spells later, why can I not get a 1st level out of school spell at some point? Find Familiar is absolutely thematic for the class, but if I want it I have to use an ASI or my 8th level spell known which I could be getting a 2nd level spell with.
    • Why does the magical rogue archetype not get to Sneak Attack with spells and cantrips?
    • Why does the magical rogue archetype get so few spells known, no way to learn extra spells, so few cantrips, and get saddled with the "only Enchantment/Illusion" restriction?
    • Why does the magical rogue archetype not get to add Arcana to their skills?


    Basically, if I want to play a rogue with some arcane power, I honestly feel like you're supposed to just play Rogue 2/Wizard X, or even some variant of Bard. This archetype is supposed to fill a specific class fantasy, and while it brings all the flavor and abilities you would want, the spellcasting has such mediocre progression that it feels like the spells are there largely for flavor purposes only.

    This could've been fixed by giving Arcane Trickster it's own spell list where it got access to some spells at a lower level than normal, or they could've just gotten a decent spell progression based on other half casters.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sception View Post
    That informs my own preferred hexblade/bladlock fix: remove them from warlock altogether. Make them their own half-pact-caster class, related to but independent from warlock the same way paladins are to clerics or rangers to druids.
    Yep. And they don't get EB as a cantrip.
    Hexblade gets to be its own class, with hit dice and equipment proficiencies appropriate for a melee class from level one without accidentally giving those things to casty/blasty warlocks,
    Good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Honestly. I love 5e Arcane Trickster.
    It's a nice kit. I saw a lot of Thief/Magic Users in OD&D and AD&D.
    As far as fiction goes, the AT is a far more capable adventurer, with some spell casting ability rogue 'live by your wits" themes than cugel was in Vance's Dying Earth stories, and it touches a bit on Grey Mouser having been originally a magician's apprentice which leads to the original thief has some magical talents bit in Greyhawk.

    At table, they are great to have in the party. Very flexible and each one I've seen at play has been a unique character.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Hm, most and least:
    Well for most I am a bit biased towards Wizard:
    Evoker
    Enchanter
    Necromancer
    Illusionist
    Then
    Conquest Paladin
    Gloomstalker Ranger
    Fey Wanderer Ranger
    Zealot Barbarian
    Knowledge Cleric
    Battlemaster Fighter
    Trickster Rogue
    SoulKnife

    Least
    Way of the Open Hand Monk
    Berkerker Barbarian
    Beastmaster Ranger
    Wild Sorcerer
    Arcane Archer Fighter*

    *I am on the fence on this one, mostly because it does feel magical just not often enough.

    Edit: I realize I am conflicting with some one up top
    Soulknife as energy blade fighter I agree doesn't work much
    Soulknife as psychic rouge with strange abilities like telekinetic and telepathic weirdness and always seems to have a weapon, works pretty well.
    The big problem would be if this was supposed to be the soul knife of 3.5, which would probably been a monk subclass.
    Then again Phychic Strike and sneak attack aren't the most disparate abilities.
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2021-12-05 at 12:36 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    Hmm, if I had to choose one from each class:
    Bard: Eloquence (While eloquence feels the most vanilla conceptually, is the one that makes the most sense to me, however I have to say that I don't really get the Bard fluff)
    I exclusively play Eloquence bards, and honestly, it's because they are very overpowered. But it almost makes them mismatch their concept IMO. Like, when you stack mind sliver + unsettling words + silver barbs to put like a -14 on a saving throw for someone, you're not just like a really convincing speaker. That's active and very creepy mind control that I think the class should have developed more, making the first generally evil oriented bard.

    Heavy cult leader vibes from unfailing inspiration, infectious inspiration, silver tongue etc-- like all the mechanics are there and it's billed a diplomat type when really it would have been more fun and thematic to be a semi-psionic/telepathic mind-molesting psychopath with a winning smile. Would have helped to mechanically balance the class too if that was typified, giving them similar drawbacks to an Oathbreaker paladin etc.

    Like, all other Bard colleges should hate you, and most relatively knowledgeable people (INT 15+) probably have some idea what you are and what you are capable of so your social DCs scale up due to that foreknowledge to avoid making every Persuasion check like ridiculously trivial. I mean, whats your minimum Persuasion roll at Tier 4? Something like 32 on a nat 1? If the Silver tongue and other features were considered generally prohibited techniques by most people a la necromancy I personally think it would be a much more interesting and socially engaging class to play. They aren't like something that is directly and kind of cheaply spooky through a frightened mechanic, but it would be rewarding to DMs and players if there was some drawback whenever you used your clearly magical speech to bend someone's freewill. Not as crippling as the ridiculous restrictions on Charm, and probably something like the effect still goes off but an insight check reveals that *something* exerted a mental influence on the target. Would make social challenges fun as the bard has to burn through escalating DCs that begin to challenge his bonkers persuasion ability, while interspersing his limited BIs to say unsettling words that make the target fail to realize he is being mentally broken.
    Last edited by Kenny_Snoggins; 2021-12-08 at 03:48 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Angelalex242's Avatar

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Imagine an eloquence bard doing the televangelist thing and leading worshippers of a deity away from that deity. Deity can't even take the bard's spells away, because they aren't divinely granted. This bard could fake like he's a cleric for quite some time, even learning healing spells to help maintain the lie.

    I mean, sooner or later the clerics of that faith are going to come calling with actual divinely granted powers, but that bard can put a lot of warm bodies between the clerics and himself

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Most:

    Artificer: armorer
    Barbarian: Beast
    Bard: spirits
    Cleric: life
    Druid: Stars
    Fighter: rune knight
    Monk: Shadow
    Paladin: Conquest
    Ranger: Fey Warden
    Rogue: swashbuckler
    Sorcerer: Aberrant
    Warlock: genie
    Wizard: abjuration

    Least:

    Artificer: Alchemist
    Barbarian: storm herald or battlerager
    Bard: valor
    Cleric: nature
    Druid: spores
    Fighter: banneret
    Monk: four elements
    Paladin: ancients
    Ranger: horizon walker
    Rogue: assassin
    Sorcerer: storm
    Warlock: hexblade
    Wizard: scribes
    Roll for it
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Most:
    - Valor Bard is a fantastic Skald.
    - Life cleric is the most old school cleric-y cleric there could be.
    - EKs really feel like Lord-Soth style Death Knight Gish.
    - Shadow Monks with shortswords are mystical ninjas. Once you can wrap your head around that not being a Rogue subclass.
    - Beastmaster does a great job of "beast and master fight as one".
    - Thief is a fantastic Thief-Acrobat with Expertise in Acrobatics, and if you want old-school thief Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Investigation.
    - Wild Magic Sorcerers are lolrandom as heck if your DM refreshes Tides with a surge on every spell.
    - but my top pick is Pact of the Blade Fey Warlock. Winter Knight.

    Least:
    - Trickery Cleric is probably the biggest fail for what people seem to think it should be. It's pretty good at being a defensively misdirection oriented cleric, but most people seem to want a Cleric-Rogue.
    - Moon Druid doesn't really feel like a Druid, either old school, hippy, or shaman stand-in. Wild shape in general is a bad fit for Druids thematically, but Moon Druids lean in so hard they might as well be called the Shapeshifter class. They make a pretty good Injun Joe from Dresden Files if that's what you want.
    - 4 elements Monks seemed to have missed the ElementBender mark most people expect of them. (Complaints about effectiveness often go hand in hand of course.)
    - Vengeance Paladins feel nothing like 4e Avengers, which they're supposed to be the stand-in for.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    Deity can't even take the bard's spells away, because they aren't divinely granted.
    Of course they can. It's called "smite the heretic". Hard to cast spells when you're a dead.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    Imagine an eloquence bard doing the televangelist thing and leading worshippers of a deity away from that deity. Deity can't even take the bard's spells away, because they aren't divinely granted. This bard could fake like he's a cleric for quite some time, even learning healing spells to help maintain the lie.

    I mean, sooner or later the clerics of that faith are going to come calling with actual divinely granted powers, but that bard can put a lot of warm bodies between the clerics and himself
    Hilariously, in our current campaign we are demigods trying to recruit followers for our individual pantheons so I guess that's the sequel to what you suggest if the Bard manages to give the Clerics the slip

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    MOST:

    Artificer: Artillerist, Love 'em robot swarms
    Barbarian: Zealot. Great portrayal of a dangerous fanatic with no need of wisdom
    Bard: Eloquence. When you really want to be the face
    Cleric: Tempest. Lightning is very wrath-of-godsy
    Druid: Moon. Shapeshift is the most signature druid ability
    Fighter: Battlemaster. Really captures the strategist warrior
    Monk: Way of the Open hand. It truly feels lyke a master martial artist
    Paladin: Devotion. The pure concept of a paladin, all good and justice without a mandatory focus.
    Ranger: Drakewarden has that feeling in which you take care of your pet, until it's strong enough to take care of you.
    Rogue: Three way tie between mastermind, swashbuckler and arcane trickster. The three of them perform as they should.
    Sorcerer: Wild magic. You certainly get what you're buying
    Warlock: Whatever you say about the nine hells, I think the fiend certainly delivers.
    Wizard: Too many. Bladesinger, evoker, diviner and necromancer in particular feel right what you wanted.

    LEAST

    Artificer: Armorer. Quite powerful, yes, and you're iron man, yes, but it feels so forced even in settings like eberron
    Barbarian: Wild Magic. Nothing in this subclass makes any sense to me
    Bard: College of Valor. Not that bad, but lacks some of the Skald thing you were looking for
    Cleric: Pass. Some options are more powerful than others, but I think all of them quite represents a follower of that aspect
    Druid: Dreams. Until level 14, you don't really get anything that really captures the feeling.
    Fighter: Arcane Archer. Too limited uses after they're done you feel like a regular archer. Feels like it should have some spells.
    Monk: Kensei. Feelis like monks that regreted becoming a monk and is too late to change their minds
    Paladin: oath of the ancients. Certainly powerful, but the oath itself it's too... passive; doesn't feel paladiny to me
    Ranger: Both swarmkeeper and Feywanderer feel so forced, they should be druid subclasses instead
    Rogue: Maybe the assassin? Too much focus (and time!) in disguises that won't be needed
    Sorcerer: Draconic Bloodline lacks a something that would make you feel that sweet draconic heritage.
    Warlock: The undying is quite false advertising. You should sue to get your contrat tansferred to another patron.
    Wizard. War wizard is not bad, and I don't know what i'd expect, but "war" sounds like someone that should either buff allies and/or extend the dimensions of area spells.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: What 5e subclasses do you think most or least fulfill their intended fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny_Snoggins View Post
    I exclusively play Eloquence bards, and honestly, it's because they are very overpowered. But it almost makes them mismatch their concept IMO. Like, when you stack mind sliver + unsettling words + silver barbs to put like a -14 on a saving throw for someone, you're not just like a really convincing speaker. That's active and very creepy mind control that I think the class should have developed more, making the first generally evil oriented bard.
    I kind of agree, Whispers should be the "evil/creepy debuff bard," but Eloquence is so much better at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironkid View Post
    Warlock: The undying is quite false advertising. You should sue to get your contract transferred to another patron.
    This made me lol
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-12-09 at 12:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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