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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Reading all of people's experiences with DMPCs has given me a great idea for a mini-campaign. The PCs are down-on-their-luck adventurers who have been reduced to working as sidekicks for a "great hero" who's really a self-aggrandizing buffoon. They have to follow him around on quests making sure he doesn't get killed and looks like he actually vanquished the monsters or what have you. In other words, the PCs have to do the work ordinarily provided by a DMPC's Plot Armor.

    Hell, they could even be hirelings to a whole party of of such glory-hounds, bailing them out when they inevitably get themselves imperiled with their terrible ideas. Each member could parody a recognizable DMPC-stereotype:

    • Edgelord so the DM can show off his DPR-maxxed Hexblade/Sorcerer/Paladin whatever.
    • Fun Police / Plot Rails Enforcer.
    • Exposition fountain because the DM doesn't trust you to read the setting notes.
    • Uncomfortable manifestation of the DM's erotic fantasies.
    Had an NPC that claimed credit for the party’s accomplishments in a way they couldn’t immediately remedy due to the politics involved. Nice way to have a secondary villain that they simply HATED. Had him wearing a centaur leather jacket as I recall, which made it worse. They plotted his demise with gusto.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Isn’t the pain point of the DMPC that they always jump the shark, because the DM gets too attached and they steal entire acts, not just scenes?

    I’ve had plenty of Mary Sue NPCs that the PCs loved, because they stole a scene, had their cool character moment, then exited stage left. Plus, it’s a lot easier to keep an NPC cool and mysterious when they’re not constantly participating in the story.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpy View Post
    I always like to throw my two cents into these, because it seems like I have the minority experience with a DMPC. It can be a lot of fun, but it's not for everyone. Over the past nearly a decade I've DM'd I've played a few DMPCs.
    I am with you here.
    Being a DM for 20 years now, I've always had a DMPC, and never had any problems with any of my groups. The main reason I use one it's because sometimes another player take the DM seat (and I always encourage that anyone in the group who wants to DM do it at least once, as part of the main campaign or between campaigns).
    It started because my first group was only 3 people (me and 2 others).
    I really think that there is a right way to do it and your DMPC can even have a good story just as profound as any PC. If you do it right your character will be just like any party member.
    I usually go with wizard because it's a class that you can easily change how it plays depending on your needs. As a wizard he is also very knowledgeable of the world around them and can give info and trivia about places when it's needed.
    In combat he usually resorts to AOE spells, so he only shines in combat when the dice are in his favor, the rest of the time his presence makes an encounter easyer and nothing more (and the party happy because he is around).
    Social encounters he simply gives his npc opinion like any other npc and nothing else. I find very odd DMs talking to themselves. Your DMPC shouldn't resolve social encounters and speak only in very specifics situations.
    On loot he was the only party member who by level 10 hadn't any attuned item yet. A staff of defense came by shortly after and after that another one DMed so I got the chance to burn my gold and get some good stuff.
    On your DMPC background and story, bring up only if at least some of your players had their personal quests already and usually make him unable to resolve the quest by himself. He either needs to be saved or can't accomplish his goal alone, making the party interested in his problems as one of their own. And if possible make room for another to DM.
    In our last adventure we went to the magic school my character attended, he left before his trials and had to make then now, fighting against his teachers. I gave each player a master wizard to play so I could play against and do my trial. They had an amazing time kicking my ass. Then an antimagic cult was infiltrated there, so it was a normal adventure and everyone had time to shine. After the school was saved it held a tournament, my character didn't participate in any individual fight, only on 2 group fights.
    So you have to keep things separate, and really don't step in your party strengths, use your DMPC to fill a gap and don't let him take agency from the players

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    I've seen this before, for sure. The only reason I've not done it myself is that I'd seen it done enough before I started DMing.
    And, that's why I think DM-PCs are a thing: New DMs.
    New DMs still want to build characters and they still want to "win." I think, as DMs mature, they learn to build worlds and plots instead of characters. Their "wins" become "successes," when the PCs solve a puzzle or complete a story arc.
    Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.

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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    I've seen this before, for sure. The only reason I've not done it myself is that I'd seen it done enough before I started DMing.
    And, that's why I think DM-PCs are a thing: New DMs.
    New DMs still want to build characters and they still want to "win." I think, as DMs mature, they learn to build worlds and plots instead of characters. Their "wins" become "successes," when the PCs solve a puzzle or complete a story arc.
    That's not necessarily always the case. I have one in one of my campaigns that I am dming because one of the players adopted a bandit from the very first encounter that at the time didn't even have a name. A few sessions later they positioned that NPC in a way that they became the focal point of the entire campaign because they came in contact with a certain item basically cursing him with immortality and the memories of the BBEGs.
    At this point the npc in question is actively trying to escape this predicament that the party put him in with little success past getting stuck in a time loop paradox.
    A NPC from the very first encounter of the game which only had the word 'cowardly' beside it as a description
    is now a fully functioning member of the party which the only influence I had as the DM was allowing it to happen as events unfolded.

    In another game a guinea pig with a headband of intelligence is a functioning member of the party. Also happens to be the only member with a positive intelligence modifier. If I recall correctly I believe the guinea pig was a leader of a nation at one point.

    Would either of these for the bill for a DMPC? I personally don't waste much thought on it. They're in PCs that happened to share an abnormal amount of time with the party for whatever reason. As long as the player still have full control of the agency of their characters within the world then you don't really have to worry too much about them being overshadowed. If anything repetitive interaction with the same NPC and the changes that occur are a really powerful device to support this.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  6. - Top - End - #36
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    When there's a need for the PCs to have allies I tend to make them faceless henchmen (for example a trio of brothers called Alard, Balard, and Calard) who the PCs often end up LOVING and giving all of their handmedown items to, celebrating their killshots etc. or intentionally aggravating NPCs (for example know-it-all wizard with an annoying nasally voice), who the PCs love screwing over. I've had my favorite NPC ally (a sleazy but slightly more competent Zack Brannigan-type) be murdered by PCs in a few different campaigns. I think people who've hated annoying DMPCs before take great joy in doing nasty things those NPCs so I'll keep on using them since I give them zero plot armor.
    Last edited by Bosh; 2021-12-07 at 02:34 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    That's not necessarily always the case. I have one in one of my campaigns that I am dming because one of the players adopted a bandit from the very first encounter that at the time didn't even have a name. A few sessions later they positioned that NPC in a way that they became the focal point of the entire campaign because they came in contact with a certain item basically cursing him with immortality and the memories of the BBEGs.
    At this point the npc in question is actively trying to escape this predicament that the party put him in with little success past getting stuck in a time loop paradox.
    A NPC from the very first encounter of the game which only had the word 'cowardly' beside it as a description
    is now a fully functioning member of the party which the only influence I had as the DM was allowing it to happen as events unfolded.

    In another game a guinea pig with a headband of intelligence is a functioning member of the party. Also happens to be the only member with a positive intelligence modifier. If I recall correctly I believe the guinea pig was a leader of a nation at one point.

    Would either of these for the bill for a DMPC? I personally don't waste much thought on it. They're in PCs that happened to share an abnormal amount of time with the party for whatever reason. As long as the player still have full control of the agency of their characters within the world then you don't really have to worry too much about them being overshadowed. If anything repetitive interaction with the same NPC and the changes that occur are a really powerful device to support this.

    Okay, it's not always the case, but this isn't what the OP was talking about. Your examples aren't stealing the lime light.

    In my current game, I'm playing an Artificer and the DM created a thief character who wanted to join the thieves guild, so, our party rogue helped her out with that and they started dating (DM and Rogue player are married). Suddenly, this thief character from the thieves guild is an Artificer, with a +10 to Initiative, has two subclasses somehow and always gets the killing blow.
    I get that the class is fun and interesting, but it's what I, the player, am using. Let ME make it fun and interesting, please. (My artificer Niall is a gnome, who has no magical ability, so, everything is alchemical. Except for his pet pig Hammers, who his brother accidently turned into a cauldron.) I can make interesting characters, but I can't compete for screen time with the person who literally runs the world. Now, even though the DM doesn't have any plot hooks or adventures ready, this DMPC want's to join our group and go adventuring, leaving behind the thieves guild we busted to get her into and the orphans she joined the guild to support.

    That's the DM being new and bored and wanting to be a player again. That's where the line between NPC and DMPC is crossed.
    Last edited by Burley; 2021-12-07 at 08:09 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuras View Post
    I’ve had plenty of Mary Sue NPCs that the PCs loved, because they stole a scene, had their cool character moment, then exited stage left. Plus, it’s a lot easier to keep an NPC cool and mysterious when they’re not constantly participating in the story.
    Those can be great NPCs.
    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    An NPC from the very first encounter of the game which only had the word 'cowardly' beside it as a description is now a fully functioning member of the party which the only influence I had as the DM was allowing it to happen as events unfolded.
    That's something I've seen with some frequency, going back to the dwarf we met in the 3d level of the dungeon (OD&D days), who was the last member of a band of dwarves our party met whom we - wait for it, all ye murder hoboes - did not attack upon encountering them in the dungeon. We parleyed with them and decided to travel together for mutual protection.
    And then we got into this huge battle with a large group, many dozens, of goblins and hobgoblins and an ogre - the dwarves were our allies in the battle. All said and done, Gar, whom we named
    Spoiler: Gar Goblinbane
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    when anyone rolled for his attacks, the DM had the players do this since he had a horde of goblins to take care of, it was uncanny how the die got hot.
    ) was alive once the battle was over (a few PCs and dwarves had died) and joined in with our party to head back to the surface and dispose of our loot... much of which we turned over to a wizard in repayment of the clone spells he'd cast on each of us "on consignment" ... at a hefty interest rate ... so we were broke again.

    A few sessions later my brother (older) joined us and in the interest of 'just joining in' where we were the DM offered him Gar as a ready made character. Done deal. The NPC turned into a PC, and he was still alive when the campaign ended due to various people going off to college and such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    Okay, it's not always the case, but this isn't what the OP was talking about. Your examples aren't stealing the lime light.
    If people will rotate being DM some of the motivation for a DMPC goes away, it seems. Well, that's my experience anyway.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-12-07 at 09:00 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Your DM is simply not a good DM and they would probably be a bad player as well, because of the simple reason that they didn't understand the basic premise of DnD.
    DnD is a COLLABORATIVE storytelling game first and foremost, and only then is it a roleplaying game, a fantasy combat game or whatever you want it to be. The entire game is about working together to create a story. If one of the players (including the DM) doesn't understand that, they will invariably fall into one of the multitude of 'that guy' tropes.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Magicspook View Post
    DnD is a COLLABORATIVE storytelling game first and foremost,
    D&D is a toolkit with some commonly acknowledged uses. The trick is making sure everyone knows what you’re going to be using it for before you get into the action. I’ve had players show up expecting something like FATE, request clarification, and leave when they realized a statistically handicapped character isn’t going to be carried into relevance by the power of storytelling and plot.

    If you’re running a walking simulator you tell the players that’s what you’re offering. I agree it’s a matter of communication and coming to an agreement on what you’re playing together, it’s just that there’s a ton of different ways to play that are all still D&D. Walking simulator with DMPCs is not popular and is rarely desired but it is not innately bad. The main gripe is over the perceived experience of the bait and switch.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    Okay, it's not always the case, but this isn't what the OP was talking about. Your examples aren't stealing the lime light.

    In my current game, I'm playing an Artificer and the DM created a thief character who wanted to join the thieves guild, so, our party rogue helped her out with that and they started dating (DM and Rogue player are married). Suddenly, this thief character from the thieves guild is an Artificer, with a +10 to Initiative, has two subclasses somehow and always gets the killing blow.
    I get that the class is fun and interesting, but it's what I, the player, am using. Let ME make it fun and interesting, please. (My artificer Niall is a gnome, who has no magical ability, so, everything is alchemical. Except for his pet pig Hammers, who his brother accidently turned into a cauldron.) I can make interesting characters, but I can't compete for screen time with the person who literally runs the world. Now, even though the DM doesn't have any plot hooks or adventures ready, this DMPC want's to join our group and go adventuring, leaving behind the thieves guild we busted to get her into and the orphans she joined the guild to support.

    That's the DM being new and bored and wanting to be a player again. That's where the line between NPC and DMPC is crossed.
    So the npc in question isnt the cause of the issue why treat it as such? If the problem is a dissatisfied DM then why not just deal with that instead of trying to defect to silly divisions of types of NPCs?
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Spo View Post
    I have had bad luck being in games where different DM's create NPC's that become the "star" of the show.

    In a homebrew campaign, the DNPC was an edge-lord something that brooded around and made the kill shots on a lot of the big baddies (and always the same "cool ass" way - "he takes out his daggers and stabs him in the eyes with them." (yawn). Mercifully that campaigned ended when the DM lost interest in the game.

    And just last night we wrapped up Frostmaiden. where our party somehow got this dog that was cute and smart and strong and magical and special and blah blah blah. OMG!!! If the DM said it once he said it 100 times how he created "Fred" in other campaigns and people just LOVED him. Fred would solve the mysteries, find the secret doors, attack the main monster. Basically, if you wanted to stay alive in the game you stayed near Fred the AC400 plot armor dog. By the final battle, I was opening commenting on how powerful deus ex machina dog and questioning if our presence was needed. It was a good thing that show is over.

    In other games I have seen NPC's run by GM's wonderfully. I think the secret to that pleasant experience was that they had a memorable personality and were background characters, never stepping into the spotlight. Me good memories of them involved rescuing them as opposed to watching them kill steal from the players.

    Has anyone else experienced this and why are some DMs in love with their NPC's?
    I haven't, but apart from DMs who aren't quite through making the mental transition from "being a player" to "being a DM", you can have them running away with their own success when they have an NPC that the party really takes to. Looks like maybe that happened with your own campaign's Scrappy Doo, I mean "Fred"?


    Apropos of the tangent...

    Quote Originally Posted by Magicspook View Post
    Your DM is simply not a good DM and they would probably be a bad player as well, because of the simple reason that they didn't understand the basic premise of DnD.
    DnD is a COLLABORATIVE storytelling game first and foremost, and only then is it a roleplaying game, a fantasy combat game or whatever you want it to be. The entire game is about working together to create a story. If one of the players (including the DM) doesn't understand that, they will invariably fall into one of the multitude of 'that guy' tropes.
    D&D doesn't have any mechanics that structure gameplay to match a story structure or flow, nor any mechanics that encourage or enforce other conventions typical of stories. The lack of such mechanics suggests to me the lack of comparable design intent. As such, I can't agree at all that you can call it a "collaborative storytelling game" in any strict sense. Say rather that it is usually a game where collaborative storytelling happens simply because a bunch of people are sitting around the gaming table (literal or figurative) taking it in turns to narrate the goings-on of fictional characters in a fictional world and then narrating the goings-on after the fact (the way one might talk about things they did or that happened to them). And in fact conflict can arise if any of the players (but especially the DM) have it in mind to make the game be "about" a story when the other players do not agree. There is nothing stopping the game from being used as a storytelling game in a stricter sense, of course.

    Tying this back to the topic of the OP ("Has anyone else experienced this and why are some DMs in love with their NPC's?"), insisting on a stricter view of D&D-as-storytelling-game strikes me as misdiagnosing the "why" of the thing. The basic premise of the game that the DM is not understanding is their role in the game. For instance, the 5e DMG summarises what the DM is about thusly (on page 4): "[Y]our goal isn't to slaughter the [player character] adventurers but to create a campaign world that revolves around their actions and decisions, and to keep your players coming back for more!" [Emphasis mine.] When an NPC, DMPC or otherwise starts running the show, the DM is now making the campaign world revolve around that NPC's actions and decisions, instead of those of the players' PCs (around whom such revolution is meant to happen). That is where things are going wrong.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    So the npc in question isnt the cause of the issue why treat it as such? If the problem is a dissatisfied DM then why not just deal with that instead of trying to defect to silly divisions of types of NPCs?
    Okay, dude. You're arguing for arguments' sake. My posts have been regarding the OPs topic: NPCs that steal screen time from PCs. I'm not making "silly divisions."
    When a DM is playing a character the way a player would, it's not an NPC, anymore, because it has as much agency as the players do. The DM is the NPC/DMPC. It's all the same problem. Why are you trying to create silly divisions between the DM and the characters they control?
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Asmotherion's Avatar

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    DMPCs have been ruining campains for years. Explain to your DM he might as well be playing alone at this point.

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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    Okay, dude. You're arguing for arguments' sake. My posts have been regarding the OPs topic: NPCs that steal screen time from PCs. I'm not making "silly divisions."
    When a DM is playing a character the way a player would, it's not an NPC, anymore, because it has as much agency as the players do. The DM is the NPC/DMPC. It's all the same problem. Why are you trying to create silly divisions between the DM and the characters they control?
    Because it's a red herring. Even the OPs examples it has more to do with the DM's conflicting goals with the rest of the table over what their respective roles are.
    DMs seeking to maintain control over the focus of the game don't need to use NPCs to rub everyone the wrong way and if players voice concerns it probably should address the actual problem and not a symptom.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post

    In another game a guinea pig with a headband of intelligence is a functioning member of the party. Also happens to be the only member with a positive intelligence modifier. If I recall correctly I believe the guinea pig was a leader of a nation at one point.

    Would either of these for the bill for a DMPC? I personally don't waste much thought on it. .
    In reading this I’m reminded of Fred the super dog DMPC from my campaign I referenced in my original post. My Dm also didn’t waste much time thinking how his presence would affect the actual players.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Quote Originally Posted by Spo View Post
    In reading this I’m reminded of Fred the super dog DMPC from my campaign I referenced in my original post. My Dm also didn’t waste much time thinking how his presence would affect the actual players.
    The difference is agency. The players found the npc and decided to place the item on its head. They were welcomed to leave him behind at any point or just remove the item but instead they kept him around. If I recall it was originally meant to be food and one of the players decided to roll for cuteness and got a 20 and the rest is just what happens when players decide as a group that Will Wheeking should stick around.

    Definitely didn't have any plot armor either I lost count the number of diamonds they end up using to resurrect the thing.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2021-12-09 at 04:53 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Scene stealing NPC's

    Weirdly I've had nothing but good experiences with major NPCs in this manner, whether running games with them or having them tag along. The party I'm a player in is accompanied by a gremlin bandit we fell in love with and recruited, and was recently (for a brief adventure) helped by one of the PCs' absolutely busted OP grandad. I've also played an NPC companion in a game I ran which went really well- the players got genuinely sad about the NPC's pain and death, even though he couldn't permanently die while one of the PCs stayed alive.

    It feels like the golden rule in all of this is that the NPC is not one of the main characters. To compare it to something I'd hope we're all familiar with, Minrah is a pretty good NPC follower and about as PC-like as one can be. NPCs can be servants, aides, friends, family, lovers, whatever, and they can be stronger then the PCs if they must be, but they absolutely are not the protagonists. They don't come up with the plans, they facilitate them. They don't lead the party, they remind them what they were probably meant to do and let them take it from there. They don't kill the boss, they take care of the mooks. Even if they hold off a different fire giant with each hand they don't fight the lich, and they certainly don't defeat him.
    Last edited by NotPrior; 2021-12-09 at 02:51 PM.

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