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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    That's weird to me, but I guess if that's what the devs intended, then ok. This does mean that my spellcaster only needs to make one concentration check if they're struck by multiple missiles though. :3
    Except with the damage being the total damage done to you instead of the damage from each missile.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Tier 3 is when a Sorcadin comes really online, at Pal 6/Sorc 5. Your next level will be either Pal or Sorc depending on Paladin subclass, and the rest will be Sorc. A Conquest Paladin 7/Sorc X is a force to be reckoned with.

    Illusionists also love tier 3. Get enough downtime and Major Image at 6th level allows for very nice shenanigans, as does Seeming (this one without downtime, just cast it and wreack havoc with your party).

    Bards have the good option of not being a Lore Bard and still getting sweet magical secrets without waiting for what it feels like a lifetime.

    Coffelocks, if your DM allows them, it goes without saying, are also very happy here. At Warlock 2/Sorc 9 they are already at infinite spell slots at the maximum level they can get. Get one more level of Warlock to double your conversion efficiency, and the rest is up to you (remember, Coffelocks can't get back spell slots of level 6th and higher, at least not without taking a Long Rest and losing all thr slots they've accumulated so far, so you're probably better off not getting them at all. If you want to gish, maybe go to Paladin 2 for infinite smites, or just keep progressing as Warlock with Pact of the Blade).

    Paladin is a solid single-class at this point, as are all casters; Warlocks have so many different options here that you can go basically in any direction you want.

    I don't have experience with other classes at that level apart from those.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2021-12-03 at 09:14 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    There is ambiguity on the spell. The most simple and most correct way to apply it is to roll once and use the damage on all magic missiles, exactly the way you would do for Fireball that has a lot of similarities with MM. Empowered Evocation applies to a single roll, so you do exactly that. It just so happens that all the magic missiles use the same roll. Sage Advice supports this reading.

    This is in contrast to the wording of Scorching Ray, which forces you to make an attack roll for every ray.
    So, MM and SR, as examples: They have different rules for attacks rolls (one has them and one doesn't), but I don't see why that would change how damage rolls work. The spell specifically says they're separate missiles, so you should roll separate damage.

    But, I'm not trying to derail with a debate. Just... Sage Advice says some silly things sometimes and then says "I dunno, y'all. I didn't make the game, I just make sweeping rulings without much thought." Paraphrasing, of course.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    So, MM and SR, as examples: They have different rules for attacks rolls (one has them and one doesn't), but I don't see why that would change how damage rolls work.
    That's just what folks have been saying, it doesn't change how damage rolls work.

    The rule for damaging Attack rolls is that they resolve sequentially, and you make a damage roll for each successful Attack.

    The rule for spells that can damage multiple creatures simultaneously is that you make one damage roll.

    There is no "separate missiles, therefore separate damage rolls" rule.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-12-03 at 01:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    So, MM and SR, as examples: They have different rules for attacks rolls (one has them and one doesn't), but I don't see why that would change how damage rolls work. The spell specifically says they're separate missiles, so you should roll separate damage.

    But, I'm not trying to derail with a debate. Just... Sage Advice says some silly things sometimes and then says "I dunno, y'all. I didn't make the game, I just make sweeping rulings without much thought." Paraphrasing, of course.
    I get that it's confusing, so I will try to explain.

    This is the rule for spell damage rolls.:

    "If a spell or other Effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a Wizard casts Fireball or a Cleric casts Flame Strike, the spell’s damage is rolled once for all Creatures caught in the blast."

    With a natural reading, you can argue that since MM is used to attack only one target, then it doesn't follow the rule. However it doesn't work that way, because if it did it would bypass all restrictions for twinning. It doesn't matter how you use the spell, it matters if it's capable of affecting more than one targets. So since MM is capable of affecting more than 1 target, you roll once, and you apply that result to any target you affect. This has been confirmed again and again by sage advice. Otherwise it completely breaks all the erratas and the rules that control twin spell.

    Scorching Ray is also a spell that affects multiple targets. Why don't we do the same? Because the spell says so. It directly contradicts the rule, and since specific beats general, then we have to apply the ability to one damage roll.

    Another case would be Chain Lightning. If you have abilities like Empowered Evocation, CL deals the same dice+mod damage to every target, even if it's described as multiple lightning bolts. If you could use CL to attack the same target, the same thing as MM would apply because it's a single roll.
    Last edited by Gtdead; 2021-12-03 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    There is no "separate missiles, therefore separate damage rolls" rule.
    I am not sure that's right, given that you can direct each of the three to a different target. But I think it might be best not to digress into a MM thread, I believe we have a few well subscribed ones.
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Just to get back to the OP, our experience has been that martials do stay viable through the end of tier 3. The one caveat I'd add is that the limiting factor is magic and our DM's (myself included) make sure the martials have the magic they need to shine. A martial with winged boots and a great magic weapon is going to be able to get where they need to go and lead in single target damage. If not they could have problems, so I'd definitely be aware of magic availability before making a choice here.

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I am not sure that's right, given that you can direct each of the three to a different target
    Given that you can direct each of the three to a different target, you follow the rule on page 196 of the PHB, where it establishes how damage rolls work.



    I can assure you, there is not some hidden other rule that says "except if the spell or effect launches separate projectiles, then you roll multiple times."
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-12-03 at 08:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Just plain evoker is great if you want to blow things up. Level 10 you get to add int modifier to evocation damage and at 14 you can overchannel for max damage

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    There is ambiguity on the spell. The most simple and most correct way to apply it is to roll once and use the damage on all magic missiles, exactly the way you would do for Fireball that has a lot of similarities with MM. Empowered Evocation applies to a single roll, so you do exactly that. It just so happens that all the magic missiles use the same roll. Sage Advice supports this reading.

    This is in contrast to the wording of Scorching Ray, which forces you to make an attack roll for every ray.
    You are correct. Here is the relevant tweet that supports your interpretation:
    https://www.sageadvice.eu/magic-missile-3-bolts/
    Last edited by dmartin3d; 2021-12-04 at 02:44 AM.

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    That's weird to me, but I guess if that's what the devs intended, then ok. This does mean that my spellcaster only needs to make one concentration check if they're struck by multiple missiles though. :3
    That's right only one concentration check. Now granted if you were hit by a Hexvokers upcasted magic missile it would be like a minimum DC 30 check but you only need to make it once, maybe with max constitution, the paladin giving you his aura, and a few items and spells that boost your saves it might even be possible to make that check.

    In response to the OP. I played a Divination Wizard in a tier 3 game and it was super fun (for the most part, I'll get into it later). Wizard really comes into its own at that point, with things like long term summons, wall of force, and soon simulacrum and clone and such.

    The main thing about high level wizards though is that they can very easily break a game especially if the DM isn't used to playing at higher levels. Talk to your DM if you plan to play a high level wizard because otherwise you may find the DM unprepared and unable to challenge you adequately which will lead to things like invisible counterspellers and anti magic fields all over the place and having to go on adventures in planes where magic doesn't work right and super beings that just paralyze anyone who uses a spell in their domain. It may sound like I'm exaggerating but these are all things that my DM threw at us because otherwise my character would have just cast teleport or dominate person or something and immediately solved the problem. Was this a good solution on the DMs part? No I don't think so. Those sessions felt super contrived and antagonistic against me specifically and it was only because we'd been playing for over a year at that point that I didn't just leave right then and there. But I understood where he was coming from and that he didn't want me to just bypass and solve every problem with a single spell and we had to work together to find ways to have adventures that could stand up to high level magic.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Trying to get the thread back on topic:

    If I were starting at tier 3, even though there are plenty of good single-class characters, I'd definitely try a relatively "deep" multiclass (i.e, not a dip), like the previously mentioned Sorcadin. The main drawback of those multiclasses is exactly the time it takes for them to come online, so to speak; so being able to skip that time and just enjoy the multiclass would be a considerable incentive.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Tier3 is full caster land and gish/ multiclass land. The martials all fall off with the exception of the paladin to some extent.

    This is where classes like the sorcerer really jump up the rankings and start to shine. Meanwhile top tier 1-2 casters like the cleric start to fall off a bit relatively speaking (still strong but not the best in the game anymore). Id say even the artificer falls off here (b/c its so strong in tier2 relatively speaking).

    In tier 4 the relative positions mostly stay the same, its just the disparity between casters and even gishes starts to grow.
    Last edited by Hael; 2021-12-05 at 04:31 AM.

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    I only have modest experience playing in Tier 3, but in general bards, clerics, druids, paladins and wizards are very strong in Tier 3.

    I have some thoughts about the subclasses in Tasha's, but this is theorycrafting. I have not played or seen any of these subclasses in play at Tier 3.

    The aberrant mind and clockwork soul sorcerers look like they would be very strong as primary classes in Tier 3. The large number of bonus spells known in combination with metamagic suggest a sorcerer who has both breadth and depth.

    The warlock is often dinged as a mediocre class for single-class characters (at least in Tier 2+), but a single-class genie warlock looks like it could hang in Tier 3. The limited wish ability you get at level 14 is very good.

    Of course, the sorlock (Sorcerer X/Warlock 2-3) has long been a powerful multiclass. An aberrant mind or clockwork soul sorcerer 9-10 / hexblade 2-3 would unquestionably be a strong character in Tier 3.
    Last edited by Ogre Mage; 2021-12-05 at 06:29 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    For level 12?

    Paladin 2/ Bard 10

    Swords Bard (easier version) or Valor Bard (harder version)

    The Bardadin is pretty great; two attacks, a plethora of spell slots to turn into damage, 4 skill expertise, heavy armor, and starting with magical secrets. Normally the rub for this multiclass is that it doesn't get extra attack until level 8, but you've leap frogged over those dragging levels into the area where things are mostly just fun.

    Doing it as a Sword's Bard is the easiest version; it lets you use weapons as a spellcasting focus, and though both benefit from warcaster, the Sword Bard will be fully spell ready while using sword and board. Combined with defensive flourish, you can also get a fairly astronomical AC, and - should you wish it - you can grab Shield as one of your magical secrets, and you can concentrate on Shield of Faith from your paladin levels, and you can take the Defensive fighting style as a Paladin while picking up Dueling through Sword Bard. The result? An AC in the low thirties when you need it; call this guy Sherman, because he's a tank!
    Of course, no tank is complete without a cannon; paladin smite and two attacks with dueling style takes care of that perfectly well. At level 16 you get the benefit of having a flourish every round without touching your inspiration pool, so there's no reason not to go hog wild while saving your inspiration for helping people's saving throws; you got something to look forward to in the future- roughly simulating the saving throw aura of a standard paladin - but the basics of what you need are all there to start at level 12.
    And you have skills, so you function outside of combat like a boss. Or double down with Athletics expertise and a Magical Secrets Enlarge/Reduce so you can mock the barbarian for not being able to grapple the adult dragon.

    It's highly flexible, and solves the only two weaknesses that bards really have; dealing damage and being squishy. Generally more rounded than a Sorcadin, too.

    You can also go Valor Bard, which mostly isn't as good as a in your face fighty type, but still pretty darned good at it, able to pump his AC into the mid/high twenties fairly easily. We're still waiting for his level 14 ability to come online at this point, but once he hits level 16 there's nothing stopping him from casting Blade Ward and smiting in the same round, or Vicious Mockery and smiting in the same round to get a not insubstantial at will defensive boost. Or throwing a control spell and smiting in the same turn.
    It's not as glamorous as Swords Bard, and a little more complicated, but it's final ability has potential to make a very flexible combatant, indeed.

    And should your party *really* want/need that saving throw bonus aura, after level sixteen you are free to drop levels into paladin to get it come level 20, letting you potentially add +5 +1d10 to your party's saves. It's less exciting than going straight bard, but even epic level enemies will have some difficulty consistently throwing effects on your party at that point.

    Anyway, tier 3 is when this combination really starts to come alive. It is the sweet spot.
    Last edited by loki_ragnarock; 2021-12-05 at 11:28 AM.

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    I know you said no druids, but what about a Clockwork Sorcerer 9/ Land (grasslands) Druid 3?

    +10 sorcerer spells known, +2 druid spells, totally modifiable list of lvl1/2 druid spells, more find familiar than you can shake a stick at, still has 2xlvl5 + 1xlvl6 spell slot (so you or a friend can ride around on a dragon for half the day), quite a lot of other summoning and utility, enough metamagic that you can alter those druid lvl2 slots into something useful (flaming sphere is good as another element), a couple of levels of natural recovery for more free slots, a touch of ritual casting if you have those spells prepared, and a bit of wildshape utility for exploration and hiding.

    It's a bit MAD due to needing 13-14Wis, but you probably shouldn't be relying on AC for defence too much by this level anyway, you've got Con proficiency from Sorc (so a free ASI up your sleeve), and just so much more flexibility than a normal Sorc would have by this level it's amazing.

    I'd suggest Wildfire Druid 3 instead of Land 3, because who doesn't like teleports on their list of things they can do?, but it might be a bit too good (or boring, if you've just played a WF druid recently).

    Should play like a sorcerer, just without the traps or pitfalls, and tonnes more campaign flexibility if you don't know what you'll be facing. Which in tier 3, you often won't, and might need to bounce between combat/ social/ exploration roles a bit regardless.
    Last edited by sambojin; 2021-12-05 at 11:21 AM.

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    As far as classes I personally played/DMed for:
    Fighter is amazing in Tier 3. Easily the most single target damage of any class over multiple encounters, and plenty of ASIs for interesting feats.
    Paladins, Celestial and Hexblade warlocks, Rogues and Clerics are all quite solid.

    Clerics can feel same-y if you played one all the way through to Tier 3, since their high level spells are pretty meh, but if you’re starting at 12, that’s not an issue.

    Really, only Barbarians and Rangers seemed to feel “stuck” in T3, and Rangers have lots of multi-classing options. Since you’re starting at 12, there are lots of multi class splits that work since you skip all the awkward levels before they come on-line. Definitely recommend checking out the pseudo-Paladin builds, especially a Ranger/Cleric or EK/Cleric.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    This might depend on a DM ruling, but there's a school of thought that Bladesinger Extra Attack stacks with EK War Magic, so BS 6/ EK 7 starts to look pretty good once you're past all the levels to get it online.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Spo View Post
    Again, I'm mostly interested in things like "Monks really come into their own in Tier 3" or "Barbarians don't really evolve, just more numbers, so Tier 3 isn't anything special" or "Bladesingers really can't keep up with weapon attacks, so a different wizard subclass will keep it's identity better" or "eldritch knight is finally firing on all gears at those levels". And all of the above is just made up samples - I'm looking for people with actual play experience at those levels for what they saw work well.

    Thank you for your attention in this request.
    Multiclassing starts to look attractive to the likes of Eldritch Knights and Battle Masters after level 11 or 12. Yeah, they get another extra attack at level 20, and only level 20, but... geez, that's a long ways away, and you'll have it for only 1 level (by contrast, casters will have level 9 spells for four levels). A few of the later Fighter subclasses have better excuses to stick around in their class for longer, but the PHB ones are topheavy.

    The Barbarian kinda starts forgetting to scale their damage and options around here, sadly. Also, as you face higher and higher level foes, they're more and more likely to have access to options that get around Rage defenses (e.g. stuff that isn't just walking up to you and bopping you in the face with B/P/S damage).

    Tier 3 is when casters start getting their Conspicuously Big Guns, the biggest of which is of course Simulacrum, which ranges from "absolutely broken" by RAW to "merely the best spell in the game" if you use the dev-stated RAI restrictions. This spell basically allows you to turn gold and time into spell slots and action economy and other resources at a rate that is frankly a complete steal.

    Even without that, there's other things coming on like Summon Celestial (which hits as hard as a decent-but-not-super-optimal martial all on its own, on top of the rest of your action economy), Contingency (which can use a slot from last week, action economy free), Crown of Stars, Forcecage, Wall of Force, and so much more. And no shortage of powerful class and subclass features, either.

    Bards start picking up their Magical Secrets, and can steal any of those big tricks for themselves (including Simulacrum and Contingency).

    Sorcerers start slowing down their spell progression for some reason (seriously, they get 11 spells known over their first 10 levels, and only 4 spells known over their last 10 levels) just as the Wizard's starting to pick up steam in a big way.

    Quote Originally Posted by BullyWog View Post
    Just plain evoker is great if you want to blow things up. Level 10 you get to add int modifier to evocation damage and at 14 you can overchannel for max damage
    Agreed. Also, Tier 3 Evoker's good not just for blowing things up, but control too -- you can do some very interesting things with Sculpted Sickening Radiance, Sculpted Wall of Stone, Sculpted Wall of Ice, etc. Even Sculpted Fireball means you can make tactical party formations work that normally wouldn't. Evocation isn't just the school of Fireball, it's the school of walls, too.

    And it's just gotten better and better with supplements. For example, the new ice spell in Fizban's is especially powerful with Sculpt Spells.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-12-08 at 03:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    I just put together a Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Echo Knight 3 for a West Marches server where I was allowed to start a character at Level 10.

    The Paladin inherently gets 2 attacks. The Echo Knight adds a third one, plus the occasional Action Surge. Hexblade doubles crit chance, which is nice for Paladins, and keeps the STR requirement down to 13.

    Hexblade and Echo Knight do conflict in their desire to use bonus actions, and having lowish STR detracts from what otherwise might be nice potential as a grappler (including giving opponents disadvantage on Strength checks). But the damage and survivability have been pretty nice.

    With that start, there are a lot of ways to go. Sorcerer for spell slots would be an obvious choice; also, even 1 level of Sorcerer could give Shield and so on. Another level of Fighter gives an ASI. Another level of Warlock gives a couple of invocations. Etc.

    I'm not sure which Paladin subclass would be best. I took Devotion, but I'm not in love with it.

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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey View Post
    I just put together a Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Echo Knight 3 for a West Marches server where I was allowed to start a character at Level 10.

    The Paladin inherently gets 2 attacks. The Echo Knight adds a third one, plus the occasional Action Surge. Hexblade doubles crit chance, which is nice for Paladins, and keeps the STR requirement down to 13.

    Hexblade and Echo Knight do conflict in their desire to use bonus actions, and having lowish STR detracts from what otherwise might be nice potential as a grappler (including giving opponents disadvantage on Strength checks). But the damage and survivability have been pretty nice.

    With that start, there are a lot of ways to go. Sorcerer for spell slots would be an obvious choice; also, even 1 level of Sorcerer could give Shield and so on. Another level of Fighter gives an ASI. Another level of Warlock gives a couple of invocations. Etc.

    I'm not sure which Paladin subclass would be best. I took Devotion, but I'm not in love with it.
    Anciencts is pretty good.

    Also, why 13? you would need 15 if you want the heavier armor. If you don't then its fine.
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Khrysaes View Post
    Anciencts is pretty good.

    Also, why 13? you would need 15 if you want the heavier armor. If you don't then its fine.
    You need a Str 13 to MC a Paladin.
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    You need a Str 13 to MC a Paladin.
    Right, but i meant why 13 instead 15, the requirement for fullplate or some other heavy armor.
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    Default Re: “Good” tier 3 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Yeah, they get another extra attack at level 20, and only level 20, but... geez, that's a long ways away, and you'll have it for only 1 level (by contrast, casters will have level 9 spells for four levels).
    It makes more sense to me for that fourth attack to arrive at the beginning of Tier 4: Level 17. The other two show up at the beginning of a Tier. (5:2 atks; 11:3 atks)
    Tier 3 is when casters start getting their Conspicuously Big Guns, the biggest of which is of course Simulacrum, which ranges from "absolutely broken" by RAW to "merely the best spell in the game" if you use the dev-stated RAI restrictions. This spell basically allows you to turn gold and time into spell slots and action economy and other resources at a rate that is frankly a complete steal.
    One failed save on a Tier 3 monsters AoE spell, breath weapon, or AoE special ability the sim often drops. It's truly a glass cannon, but while it's up and running, yes, it's quite an asset.
    Bards start picking up their Magical Secrets, and can steal any of those big tricks for themselves (including Simulacrum and Contingency).
    Yep, and we love them, Precious.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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