Construct pricing

[Biggus]

Is it explained anywhere how the prices to create constructs are set? They don't seem to be based on HD or CR, and some (the Shield Guardian (MM) and Coral Golem (SW)) seem very expensive compared to similar-powered constructs.

[Fizban]

Nope. The prices were even higher in 3.0, and they get lower as you go later in 3.5 (as well as the monsters getting more powerful). I've heard someone claim once that there totally was a behind the scenes formula (that this person knew but didn't provide), and the way the numbers are presented with such conviction down to weirdly specific totals makes me almost believe it- but even if so, it seems clear that just as with magic items, eventually the writers stopped caring and just made up their own numbers.

[Biggus]

Thank you. I've been having a look and even in late 3.5 there's still no consistency, some of the constructs in MM4/5 are very cheap but some of them are extremely expensive (the Shardsoul Slayer in particular, 70,000GP for a CR5 creature, who in their right mind is going to pay that?).

The nearest thing I can find to something that correlates with construct prices is challenge rating squared, but even that's only a very rough guide and there are quite a few which are wildly different to the majority.

[Zanos]

The only formula I know of is that advanced golems are an additional 5k per bonus HD...which again, who is going to pay that?

I think most constructs are just priced such that players won't be interested in making them, honestly.

[Biggus]

I think most constructs are just priced such that players won't be interested in making them, honestly.

Ha, that did cross my mind. Out of the 30-odd construct types I found with prices listed there are only about half a dozen I'd even consider making.

[Fizban]

Thank you. I've been having a look and even in late 3.5 there's still no consistency, some of the constructs in MM4/5 are very cheap but some of them are extremely expensive (the Shardsoul Slayer in particular, 70,000GP for a CR5 creature, who in their right mind is going to pay that?).

The Shardsoul Slayer is made in groups of three, so that's 23.3k each. It's also wrong, since the xp value is for 70k and the creation is for 35k+6k, so the market price should be 76k or 25.3k each. But the important one is the creation cost: 13.6k each. For an intelligent construct with 50 hit points and DR 3 at medium size, that's not terrible, in theory (in practice since they must be made in 3s, anything you fight is far outside their range and you could make something stronger that would fight better than the whole pack).

The nearest thing I can find to something that correlates with construct prices is challenge rating squared, but even that's only a very rough guide and there are quite a few which are wildly different to the majority.

I've also found that a "level appropriate" construct can be from 1/3 to 1/2 WBL. Standard magic item formulas use a squared factor, and WBL is supposedly based on an average distribution including those. And I've also been swearing up and down for years that I saw a feat somewhere that let you just make creatures for like 1,000 or 2,000 *CR^2. I thought it was 3rd party, then figured it must have been homebrew, but I've never been able to find the bookmark- it probably had some useless title failing to describe the contents at all and I have hundreds of bookmarks.

You could probably rig up something with a base cost, squared multiplier, and rough added cost based on special abilities, which existing non-formula constructs could be bashed into. Certainly tons of 3rd party books just assigned their own formulas based on CR or HD or tables or whatever (usually ending with extremely low costs because obviously, and just as abuseable as any other formula system). Of course, just as the prices are essentially at the whim of the writers, so too are the stats, as later books will also have much more powerful constructs. And the relative dearth when you line them all up tends to quickly sway one into simply wanting to go to a formula construct because at least then there's a reason the options are so bland and limited. Even 3rd party books dedicated to the topic never have a particularly good spread of abilities.

You could also allow a possible rule I've put in my doc where a Location-Bound Construct costs 1/4 or 1/2 depending on its roaming area, just like stationary/bulky Wondrous Architecture, which allows for classic dungeons not being quite as hideously expensive. You could also allow a feat that lets a character have one construct which is created at a similarly massive discount. But of course neither of these standardizes prices or statistics and only works when the discount is applied to the constructs you expected it to be used on.

And none of that fixes the problems with prerequisites, where 1/3 of the constructs are only createable with endgame characters, and 1/3 are created with arbitrary spells that seem chosen only because they're low level and the writer decided this should be a low level construct, and 1/3 have spell requirements that can't be met by a single class. Hell, the magic item system clearly allows and encourages the effective "transformation" of spells to do things they didn't actually do (and often to literally transmute a material into something that doesn't exist), yet many constructs specifically require "Animate Objects" and "Polymorph Any Object."

The whole mess is rather infuriating unless you bury your head in the sand.

[Biggus]

The Shardsoul Slayer is made in groups of three, so that's 23.3k each. It's also wrong, since the xp value is for 70k and the creation is for 35k+6k, so the market price should be 76k or 25.3k each. But the important one is the creation cost: 13.6k each. For an intelligent construct with 50 hit points and DR 3 at medium size, that's not terrible, in theory (in practice since they must be made in 3s, anything you fight is far outside their range and you could make something stronger that would fight better than the whole pack).

Ah, well spotted, still quite expensive but not ludicrously so.

The MM5 also has the force golem, 50,000GP for a CR4 creature...

I've also found that a "level appropriate" construct can be from 1/3 to 1/2 WBL. Standard magic item formulas use a squared factor, and WBL is supposedly based on an average distribution including those.

Yeah, after trying and failing to come up with a suitable formula myself, I decided I was going to have to just base it on WBL if I wanted a reasonable price for them.

The whole mess is rather infuriating unless you bury your head in the sand.

Word.

[Zanos]

And I've also been swearing up and down for years that I saw a feat somewhere that let you just make creatures for like 1,000 or 2,000 *CR^2. I thought it was 3rd party, then figured it must have been homebrew, but I've never been able to find the bookmark- it probably had some useless title failing to describe the contents at all and I have hundreds of bookmarks..

Effigy creatures maybe? Their cost is linear based on hit dice plus some flat amount based on size. Probably one of the only good construct options but they aren't that obscure.

[Fizban]

Oh it wasn't a template, or constructs, and certainly not 1st party- it was literally a feat that was just like "screw it, here's a formula price to use for any creature (possibly within a type list)." I could even be (am probably?) confusing it with a PrC I do have saved that's just 1,000xHD (plus other factors), or it could be a feat that was presented as part of some other larger brew or project. Or even just posted as a quick suggestion in a completely unrelated thread.

[Jervis]

As a tangent to this are there any rules anywhere, including balanced third party and pathfinder, for adding modifications and improvements to constructs you build? I was wanting to find a way to to create a storage space inside of a construct (other than hoard gullet) that creatures can climb inside and ride around like a vehicle. Ideally I would also like to give said construct a breath weapon and same speed boosts, though the latter can be accomplished by just putting that one spear from ghostwalk inside it. I may or may not be planning on making a white dragon effigy so I can ride around in Kaiba’s blue eye’s white jet.

Edit: I think maybe combining a bunch of mundane saddles and refluffing it is the best option. Are there any structures that fit on the back of huge or larger animals? Nearest I can find is a Howdah from AaEG, maybe I could slap on stuff like the burrowing and flying saddles with maybe some kind of swarming saddle (I think stormwrack has one) onto that with item combining rules or something. Ideally I’d like to just find a building that can fit on the back of a huge or bigger creature, at that point the climbing inside part is a matter of fluff.

[AnonJr]

Oh it wasn't a template, or constructs, and certainly not 1st party- it was literally a feat that was just like "screw it, here's a formula price to use for any creature (possibly within a type list)." I could even be (am probably?) confusing it with a PrC I do have saved that's just 1,000xHD (plus other factors), or it could be a feat that was presented as part of some other larger brew or project. Or even just posted as a quick suggestion in a completely unrelated thread.

Sounds almost like creating Homuculi in Eberron with an Artificer.

The Improved Homunculus feat in Magic of Eberron also gives some nice, more ... player friendly ... options for improving small constructs.