Polymorph vs Negative levels

[Ithandor]

Hey all,

An interaction I anticipate in an upcoming session of our campaign is as follows: what happens if a character Polymorphed into a form whose HD equals the character's HD (in this case, equal to the character's level) receives negative levels?

Per the effects of negative levels:

-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

Does this affect the level of the form that they can be Polymorphed? If so, and they are already Polymorphed, is that Polymorph effect ended or supressed? I had a trawl around for any references in the rules that might give more clarity, but would be grateful if anyone can point me in the right direction.

[Crake]

From my understanding, all such checks are made at the time of the spell being cast, so that shouldn't have any effect beyond the standard negative level effects.

[Gruftzwerg]

From my understanding, all such checks are made at the time of the spell being cast, so that shouldn't have any effect beyond the standard negative level effects.

Imho the HD requirement is not part of the casting. It's part of the effect.

It's not like Enlarge Person where the requirement (humanoid) is in the casting statblock.

Thus, the HD requirement should be always active checking if the form is legal.

In the chase of Polymorph, I would say the spell ends, since it doesn't allow for later changes in the form and the current form becomes illegal. Shapechange instead would cause you to revert back to your original form, but would still be active for further changes in your next turn.

[Zarvistic]

Don't think negative levels affect your HD, so no interaction here.

[Gruftzwerg]

Don't think negative levels affect your HD, so no interaction here.

Good point. the HD change occurs only if you don't remove em within 24h hours via magic and fail the 2nd save. So it shouldn't affect the spell.

[Ithandor]

Don't think negative levels affect your HD, so no interaction here.

I was wondering about that.

Specifically, from the Rules Compendium:

A creature that has negative levels equal to its current level or Hit Dice is instantly slain

I think have to be considered as a sum - otherwise (eg) a dragon with a single class level would die with one negative level. Unless I'm misunderstanding...

[Gruftzwerg]

I was wondering about that.

Specifically, from the Rules Compendium:

A creature that has negative levels equal to its current level or Hit Dice is instantly slain

I think have to be considered as a sum - otherwise (eg) a dragon with a single class level would die with one negative level. Unless I'm misunderstanding...

I think HD is the best measurement here. It includes class lvl and RHD. But yeah, they could have worded it better..

[Ithandor]

I think HD is the best measurement here. It includes class lvl and RHD. But yeah, they could have worded it better..

Yeah, agree.

If so, then from here:

Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.

For me, this calculation is relevant to the clause of negative levels,

-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

And as such, it's fair to say the character's HD is also decreased by one for each negative level...

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah, agree.

If so, then from here:

Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.

For me, this calculation is relevant to the clause of negative levels,

-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

And as such, it's fair to say the character's HD is also decreased by one for each negative level...

A Creature's (overall) lvl has no direct effect on his HD. His RHD and Class lvl do.

Note that this is not Level loss (not yet^^). It's simulates an effective loss to some extend. Only the things mentioned apply. And we already have HP adjustment: "-5 hit points". You would be double penalizing your HP for a single Negative lvl if you also reduce the HD. That not the intention and what the text says. What you are implying here applies to Level Loss (what comes after the 2nd failed save after 24h).

[Jay R]

There is no indication in the spell description for either polymorph or alter self that the limitation is anything other than what you can change into when the spell is cast. I can't see a reason why the spell would stop in the middle. Furthermore, the description of the polymorph subschool gives specific conditions under which you revert back to your true form before the spell's normal duration ends. "If the target of a polymorph spell is slain or rendered unconscious, the spell ends." This does not include any result of negative levels.

A DM could choose to rule that losing a level could end the spell, but if so, that is a specific DM ruling for that campaign, not a rule of the game.

If it ever comes up in my game, my ruling would be that a level 7 caster with one negative level can remain polymorphed as a 7HD treant with a negative level. According to the rules for negative levels, it gives (among other things) "-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level)." This implies that the caster level is the same; you just reduce it by one for a die roll or calculation. But no such calculation is being made. If she is in her true form, she cannot turn into a 7HD treant (even one with a negative level), because at the moment of casting, she has an effective level of 7 - 1 = 6.

[Ithandor]

A Creature's (overall) lvl has no direct effect on his HD. His RHD and Class lvl do.

Note that this is not Level loss (not yet^^). It's simulates an effective loss to some extend. Only the things mentioned apply. And we already have HP adjustment: "-5 hit points". You would be double penalizing your HP for a single Negative lvl if you also reduce the HD. That not the intention and what the text says. What you are implying here applies to Level Loss (what comes after the 2nd failed save after 24h).

Sorry - I wasn't being clear in what I meant there! My question really is should the clause -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). confer a -1 "effective HD" (granted, that term doesn't seem to exist) because The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice which is a calculation involving the creature's level (although not specifically its class level).

Or, put another way: if the Polymorph spell referenced the target's character level, instead of its HD, would it be impacted by negative levels? It's not though, and maybe HD and character level are indeed intended to be decoupled.

There is no indication in the spell description for either polymorph or alter self that the limitation is anything other than what you can change into when the spell is cast. I can't see a reason why the spell would stop in the middle. Furthermore, the description of the polymorph subschool gives specific conditions under which you revert back to your true form before the spell's normal duration ends. "If the target of a polymorph spell is slain or rendered unconscious, the spell ends." This does not include any result of negative levels.

Also a very fair point!

Thanks for the views, appreciate it.

[Thurbane]

From my understanding, all such checks are made at the time of the spell being cast, so that shouldn't have any effect beyond the standard negative level effects.

I tend to agree with this.

Also opens up something I hadn't thought of before: using a Bard's Inspire Greatness to make creatures eligible for more powerful Polymorph Forms...

[Doctor Despair]

I tend to agree with this.

Also opens up something I hadn't thought of before: using a Bard's Inspire Greatness to make creatures eligible for more powerful Polymorph Forms...

That's a classic one, as well as to Psychic Reformation skill points past their normal maximum. Also works with the temp HD from polymorphing into a Barghest or a Dusk Giant

[Gruftzwerg]

There is no indication in the spell description for either polymorph or alter self that the limitation is anything other than what you can change into when the spell is cast. I can't see a reason why the spell would stop in the middle. Furthermore, the description of the polymorph subschool gives specific conditions under which you revert back to your true form before the spell's normal duration ends. "If the target of a polymorph spell is slain or rendered unconscious, the spell ends." This does not include any result of negative levels.

Lets have a look at the spell description again:

The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

assumed form != is not future
Which means that the rule doesn't target the "target form" you wanna change to (future), but the form you have changed into (Past perfect? sry, I sometimes twist the English terms here). As soon as the form is illegal (even at the start of casting), the spell stops to work.

The time chosen in the sentence makes it clear that the restriction is active over the duration of the spell and not sole when you cast it.

It doesn't say: "The target form can't have more HD"
It says: "The assumed form can't have more HD"
Imho a clear indicator that it is constantly checking.

But as said, negative lvls don't alter your HD. So it doens't change anything anyway for this situation.

Sorry - I wasn't being clear in what I meant there! My question really is should the clause -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). confer a -1 "effective HD" (granted, that term doesn't seem to exist) because The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice which is a calculation involving the creature's level (although not specifically its class level).

Or, put another way: if the Polymorph spell referenced the target's character level, instead of its HD, would it be impacted by negative levels? It's not though, and maybe HD and character level are indeed intended to be decoupled.



Also a very fair point!

Thanks for the views, appreciate it.

I guess I wasn't clear enough..^^

character lvl != HD != caster level
(and there is no direct interaction between them! the connectiong part here are your race (RHD), class level, templates and special abilities which help you to determine those stats)

The Negative Lvl still has no effect on your HD. Polymoprh sole scales with HD. Even spells which scale with caster level are unaffected.
Sole spells that scale with "character level" are affected by this (E.g Divine Power!)

The negative levels don't change the amount of your HD and that is the relevant stat for polymorph.
That happens the day after if you should fail the second save.