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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Hey guys,

    Starting off a new campaign at level 3. I'm going Armorer Artificer (focusing on Infiltrator mode), and we rolled for stats instead of taking a standard set. My roll came out 16, 13, 12, 12, 10, 10. I'm going Custom Lineage with Fey Touched to start, so this gets me to 19 int at level 3 (soon to be 20 int at level 4). I'm planning to multiclass, but I'm still working out which class(es) that would include. This leaves me at a conundrum for stat choices. I'm presently thinking:

    16 Int
    13 Cha
    12 Dex
    12 Wis
    10 Con
    10 Str

    This allows me to get into Wizard, Sorc, and Warlock to start. If I took a feat to increase Dex or Wis, then Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, or Cleric would be available too.

    But is 10 Con terrible? Some thoughts:

    1) As an Armorer, I'll have at least 18 AC to start (Chain Mail + Shield). With enhanced defense that'll go to 19. Once I multiclass into Sorc/Wiz I can pick up the Shield spell. So in general there will be few attacks that hit me.
    1) An artificer is proficient in Con saving throws, which helps.
    2) An artificer gets Aid, which increases max/current health for 8 hours. I could plan to use that regularly. I could do this even moreso if I go three levels into Sorc for Extended Spell Metamagic. Then I can cast Aid prior to a long rest, and still have it up most of the next day.
    3) At level 14 artificer, I can replicate magic item an Amulet of Health to boost my Con to 19 and dramatically increase my health pool. But... that's pretty late in the game.

    I suppose I'm mostly concerned about critical hits. Chronurgy Wizard 2 may be a way to mitigate that (i.e. hold on to Chronal Shift for times when an attacker rolls a 20 against me).

    Any thoughts? Thanks!

    Edit: for those asking how I could multiclass... some options:

    Divine soul sorc 5: shield, healing word, bless, silence, prayer of healing, counter spell, spirit shroud. Extended and quicken metamagic. Artificer gets int-based eldritch blast from All Purpose Tool. Late game damage output from 7th level spirit shroud and 2x eldritch blast (one quickened) is intense. Magical guidance from 5th level sorc for rerolling stealth checks.

    Shadow Sorc 3/Chronurgy Wizard 2:
    Easy way to get advantage with darkness. Extra initiative and crit rerolls (against me) from Chronurgy.

    Gloomstalker 3/Fighter 2:
    6 hits on first turn on surge. Archery fighting style, expert stealth. Goodberry/Hunter's Mark.

    Psi Warrior 3/Divine Soul 1/Genie 1:
    Psi Warrior damage block potential per long rest is quite high. Shield/bless and favored by the gods from sorc. PB damage per turn from genie, armor of agathys, plus lots of flavorful stuff. This was my Keranos build that I posted a year ago on this forum.

    Ranger 2/Wizard 1:
    Bare bones: stealth expert, archery style, Hunter's Mark/goodberry, cantrips and 1st level spells from wizard. I've got Fey Touched for Gift of Alacrity to help with initiative. Allows 5th level armorer/artificer spells.

    Rogue 1/Chronurgy 2:
    Same as above, but grab Fighting Initiate for archery, and swap Gift of Alacrity with Hunter's Mark. Gets me 1d6 sneak attack, 14 Dex instead of splitting 13 Dex/13 Wis for ranger above. Chronurgy provides the initiative boost and crit protection.
    Last edited by Silpharon; 2021-12-07 at 01:08 AM.

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    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Risky regardless of class and since you are planning to multiclass into other classes with even smaller HDs it's even more so. What level range can you realistically expect to play with this character and how fast will you progress?
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    I don't think anything you can do here will make a huge difference. Con 12 or 13 would be a little better but not drastically better. Your rolls are challenging.

    Int is going to be your one outstanding ability score and as a result Wizard is going to be the most attractive multi-class option in most regards. Artificer/Wizard is a very solid multi-class anyway.

    If it was me I would swap the Cha and Con scores but also I would know its not going to make the biggest difference in the world.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Risky regardless of class and since you are planning to multiclass into other classes with even smaller HDs it's even more so. What level range can you realistically expect to play with this character and how fast will you progress?
    I'm not sure how far we'll go level wise, I would expect at least through 10. I do intend to stay ranged, and I've got Misty Step/Shocking Grasp to get away from melee. I expect we'll progress moderately fast.
    Quote Originally Posted by tokek View Post
    I don't think anything you can do here will make a huge difference. Con 12 or 13 would be a little better but not drastically better. Your rolls are challenging.

    Int is going to be your one outstanding ability score and as a result Wizard is going to be the most attractive multi-class option in most regards. Artificer/Wizard is a very solid multi-class anyway.

    If it was me I would swap the Cha and Con scores but also I would know its not going to make the biggest difference in the world.
    Yeah that's where I'm at. Best case I get +1 Con mod, and by the time I can raise it through ASI/feats, I'd be close to my amulet of health anyway.

    Beyond the Aid spell, what are other efficient ways to keep health higher? False life only lasts an hour. I could use Armorer's Guardian mode to get a few temp HP, but it's unclear if I'm "doffing the armor" when I change the mode during a short rest. One compelling multiclass option is Psi Warrior. I could protect against 8.5 avg damage as a reaction 2xPB+1 times per long rest.

    The 13 Cha is because metamagic and Divine Soul Sorc seems really attractive. Pick up Bless, Shield, Fog Cloud, Silence, and Prayer of Healing. Quicken and extended metamagic for bonus action Haste/Bless and extended Aid. Favored by the Gods is also super strong.
    Last edited by Silpharon; 2021-12-05 at 04:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    I believe no PC, regardless of class or AC, should have less than 14 CO. You will get hit, regardless of AC. You can be damaged from other sources. AC does matter, but it's not immunity. Experience has shown me PCs with low hit points drop more often. The party loses your actions in combat, and you increase the rate of healing resource use. Some players, even with lots of hit points, will be cautious when low on hit points, but when you have low hit points to begin with the paranoia kicks in sooner and more often. There's nothing wrong with spending one turn taking defensive actions. It becomes a problem that's all you do for the rest of the fight for fear of dropping. The party is still losing your actions to give the bad guys the dead condition. With racial ASI and your rolls you can have 16 IN and 14 CO. Get that and you're golden. Couldn't hurt to think about your WI save, but work on your Prime and CO. Anything above 14 CO is a luxury. Nice to have but not a necessity, so no need to spend ASI on it. Barbarians want high CO.
    Last edited by Pex; 2021-12-05 at 04:30 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    There's no reason not to have at least 12 Con with your stats. If you plan on multiclassing with a Wisdom class then the 10 can go to Charisma and vice versa.

    If planning to multiclass wizard I'd even be tempted to put the 16 in Con the 13 in Int. With the Race/Half-Feat you still end up with a 16 Int and Con at level 1 which is pretty decent.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silpharon View Post
    I'm going Custom Lineage with Fey Touched to start, so this gets me to 19 int at level 3 (soon to be 20 int at level 4).
    This is the problem. Even the SADdest build will topple if you ignore all other stats.

    Your best choice would be 16 16 12, but if you want to MC into Cha you should go 16 14 14.
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Are you actually planning on multiclassing into wizard, sorcerer, warlock, fighter and rogue?

    Also, armorer is proficient in heavy armor and ignore strength requirement on their arcane armor. So dump both dex and strength. Get a chainmail.

    16 Int +2 from racial +1 from fey -> 19 at level 1
    12 Cha
    13 Con +1 from racial -> 14 at level 1
    12 Wis
    10 Dex
    10 Str

    Fey touched (int)

    At level 1 and 2 you can just be a light crossbow spell caster, at level 3 you switch to being a armorer tank. With 14 con and a chainmail your survivability will be pretty good.

    Also I wouldn't multiclass at all. At level 4 you can take another half feat, maybe skill master and get expert perception. With flash of genius and guidance your skills will be through the roof and probably annoy your DM
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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Im all for flexible PC builds but this might be aiming too far. Most of what it looks like you are after could be accomplished with a straight artificer with maybe a dip in wizard (war would be handy).
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2021-12-06 at 06:46 AM.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    It sounds like you're planning to multiclass for the multiclassing's sake. That's a bad idea: Decide what you want to do, then figure out if you'll need to multiclass to accomplish it.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    It sounds like you're planning to multiclass for the multiclassing's sake. That's a bad idea: Decide what you want to do, then figure out if you'll need to multiclass to accomplish it.
    Yes, this. It bugs me when I see threads of the nature "I'm playing Class X, what should I multiclass into?" You shouldn't multiclass into anything. Play the class. This is not saying never multiclass nor am I saying multiclassing is wrong. Multiclassing is not a drug all the cool kids are doing it. Do it for the roleplay. Do it because you'll enjoy the game mechanics synergy. Do it because you're not keen on what you get in a class after a particular level. Don't do it because you feel an obligation. Don't do it because you think you're doing something wrong if you don't. Don't do it just because someone on the internet did it. Don't do it because someone on the internet says it's such a cool combination of juiciness. There is nothing wrong with staying single class. You're not missing out on anything.
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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silpharon View Post
    But is 10 Con terrible?
    You seem decently familiar with the mechanics and have a sound plan.

    My advise? Take it as a challenge and see how long you live.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    I do think you'll be in a world that is based on characters having lower scores, with everyone having rolled. The DM will have to adjust difficulty accordingly (or maybe not adjust if you're playing published content, as with point buy I generally adjust up). So the 14 as a standard Con score may not apply. That being said I'd be chucking a 12 in there at minimum.

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    Devil

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    But is 10 Con terrible? Some thoughts:

    1) As an Armorer, I'll have at least 18 AC to start (Chain Mail + Shield). With enhanced defense that'll go to 19. Once I multiclass into Sorc/Wiz I can pick up the Shield spell. So in general there will be few attacks that hit me.
    1) An artificer is proficient in Con saving throws, which helps.
    2) An artificer gets Aid, which increases max/current health for 8 hours. I could plan to use that regularly. I could do this even moreso if I go three levels into Sorc for Extended Spell Metamagic. Then I can cast Aid prior to a long rest, and still have it up most of the next day.
    3) At level 14 artificer, I can replicate magic item an Amulet of Health to boost my Con to 19 and dramatically increase my health pool. But... that's pretty late in the game.
    1) High AC is good, but it's also the most basic of defenses. Your DEX saves are going to be fairly bad too and these always do damage. You are going to feel them really hard without the extra CON. Also they are the most likely abilities to break your concentration. At this point I don't think that concentration saves are too worrying, because you are ranged and you have ok AC.
    2) You really shouldn't build around using extend on Aid unless you have a disciple of life goodberry caster or something that can heal anything, which again I consider a really bad idea. While Aid increases your max hp, you really should treat it as THP. If this was a game with abundant healing, it would be worth it. But it's not.
    3) Yep, too late. Although the possibility of that item exists as a drop/buy.

    My question is why do you want to leave so many options open for multiclassing. I don't get it. Also I'm not sure what you want from Sorcerer and Warlock. Metamagic is good but not 3 level dip good and Warlock.. you don't even get a good eldritch blast. If you had good charisma, getting Eldritch Spear could be worth it to balance your low CON with superior range, but with the current stats I think it's a waste.

    For low survivability builds, initiative and range are the most important things. Chronurgy and War Wizard are the most important dips IMO. War Wizard can also raise your AC and Saves which I find a bit better for a 2 level dip, although Chronurgy's Chronal Shift has more applications (rerolling saves, crits or initiative). Don't forget about Silvery Barbs. Ask your DM if you can get it.

    So my suggestion would be to drop that CHA and put it in CON. I'd also go for vhuman and 18 INT/14 CON and keep my options open for another feat instead of ASI, like Lucky, or Alert (no such thing as too much initiative). But if you are certain you want to max your INT, clineage and 19 INT/13 CON will do for 1 level.
    Last edited by Gtdead; 2021-12-06 at 08:56 AM.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    I dunno I've been playing a rogue with 8 Con for the last year and a half and I've done well enough being ranged. Heck, almost every 5e character i've ever played has had 10 so I think your fine and only 1 of them has actually died in game.
    "I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant. It is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." Mewtwo

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    1) High AC is good, but it's also the most basic of defenses. Your DEX saves are going to be fairly bad too and these always do damage. You are going to feel them really hard without the extra CON. Also they are the most likely abilities to break your concentration. At this point I don't think that concentration saves are too worrying, because you are ranged and you have ok AC.
    2) You really shouldn't build around using extend on Aid unless you have a disciple of life goodberry caster or something that can heal anything, which again I consider a really bad idea. While Aid increases your max hp, you really should treat it as THP. If this was a game with abundant healing, it would be worth it. But it's not.
    3) Yep, too late. Although the possibility of that item exists as a drop/buy.

    My question is why do you want to leave so many options open for multiclassing. I don't get it. Also I'm not sure what you want from Sorcerer and Warlock. Metamagic is good but not 3 level dip good and Warlock.. you don't even get a good eldritch blast. If you had good charisma, getting Eldritch Spear could be worth it to balance your low CON with superior range, but with the current stats I think it's a waste.

    For low survivability builds, initiative and range are the most important things. Chronurgy and War Wizard are the most important dips IMO. War Wizard can also raise your AC and Saves which I find a bit better for a 2 level dip, although Chronurgy's Chronal Shift has more applications (rerolling saves, crits or initiative). Don't forget about Silvery Barbs. Ask your DM if you can get it.

    So my suggestion would be to drop that CHA and put it in CON. I'd also go for vhuman and 18 INT/14 CON and keep my options open for another feat instead of ASI, like Lucky, or Alert (no such thing as too much initiative). But if you are certain you want to max your INT, clineage and 19 INT/13 CON will do for 1 level.
    Thanks for the thoughts. Why do you think Aid HP would be any different than Con HP from a practical adventuring day perspective?

    As for multiclassing... some options:

    Divine soul sorc 5: shield, healing word, bless, silence, prayer of healing, counter spell, spirit shroud. Extended and quicken metamagic. Artificer gets int-based eldritch blast from All Purpose Tool. Late game damage output from 7th level spirit shroud and 2x eldritch blast (one quickened) is intense. Magical guidance from 5th level sorc for rerolling stealth checks.

    Shadow Sorc 3/Chronurgy Wizard 2:
    Easy way to get advantage with darkness. Extra initiative and crit rerolls (against me) from Chronurgy.

    Gloomstalker 3/Fighter 2:
    6 hits on first turn on surge. Archery fighting style, expert stealth. Goodberry/Hunter's Mark.

    Psi Warrior 3/Divine Soul 1/Genie 1:
    Psi Warrior damage block potential per long rest is quite high. Shield/bless and favored by the gods from sorc. PB damage per turn from genie, armor of agathys, plus lots of flavorful stuff. This was my Keranos build that I posted a year ago on this forum.

    Ranger 2/Wizard 1:
    Bare bones: stealth expert, archery style, Hunter's Mark/goodberry, cantrips and 1st level spells from wizard. I've got Fey Touched for Gift of Alacrity to help with initiative. Allows 5th level armorer/artificer spells.

    Rogue 1/Chronurgy 2:
    Same as above, but grab Fighting Initiate for archery, and swap Gift of Alacrity with Hunter's Mark. Gets me 1d6 sneak attack, 14 Dex instead of splitting 13 Dex/13 Wis for ranger above. Chronurgy provides the initiative boost and crit protection.

    As you can see... So many options...
    Last edited by Silpharon; 2021-12-06 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    It sounds like you're planning to multiclass for the multiclassing's sake. That's a bad idea: Decide what you want to do, then figure out if you'll need to multiclass to accomplish it.
    I agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    You seem decently familiar with the mechanics and have a sound plan.
    My advise? Take it as a challenge and see how long you live.
    And this.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    That being said I'd be chucking a 12 in there at minimum.
    Likewise. Con saves are common.
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Mind Sharpener might help at lower levels.


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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    How married are you to custom lineage?

    Rock gnome(or some other race that can get you a con bonus) and switch your cha and con gets you an 18 int and 14 con, and get alot of this build.
    Also, what are you planning on doing as multiclassing? I wouldn't recommend building with that in mind unless you are getting specific.
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2021-12-06 at 11:34 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    How married are you to custom lineage?

    Rock gnome(or some other race that can get you a con bonus) and switch your cha and con gets you an 18 int and 14 con, and get alot of this build.
    Also, what are you planning on doing as multiclassing? I wouldn't recommend building with that in mind unless you are getting specific.
    I've already got a pretty elaborate backstory that I don't want to rewrite, but thanks for the suggestion. As for multiclassing, I wrote it in a later post, but just edited my original with some options I'm considering.

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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silpharon View Post
    But is 10 Con terrible?
    Pretty much. That said, "too dangerous" can only be measured against the degree of challenges you are facing.
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    Default Re: Is 10 Con too dangerous for my Armorer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silpharon View Post
    Thanks for the thoughts. Why do you think Aid HP would be any different than Con HP from a practical adventuring day perspective?
    At face value there isn't any difference, but you need to consider what is the point of CON in the first place. Damage increases by approximately 5 per CR. When your base hit points increase by 5 or less, it takes a while for your character to leave the instant critical death. Eventually everyone gets out of that zone because the game scales up the number of attacks while keeping the damage/attack steady.

    The most important effect of CON early is that it gets you out of that zone earlier. Usually by level 5, most characters with healthy constitution have gotten out of it and are only threatened by deadly BBEGs who have abilities that augment their attacks. You getting +5 health at lvl 5 while not completely useless, it's not that important because the crit still gets you. Essentially you want to stack Aid on top of a healthy CON score to keep your HP max progression in a curve that beats the instant critical death and later the killblow death.

    By that logic, you getting 5 health more, while it's proportionally a bigger percentage difference than if you already had high CON, is just a small buffer that isn't much different in function from THP. Trying to optimize for it in order to replace your CON score is counter to the reason we want high CON in the first place.

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