Mystic Muse reads The Silmarillion.

[DavidSh]

I'll be updating on Saturday. Yesterday I was freaking exhausted, abd I have to help my friend replace his failing hard drive tonight.

I'm curious to see if MysticMuse will recognize one particular individual, though.

Yes, I'd like to see Mystic Muse's take on the Valaquenta, when the Muse is up to it. And I wonder, is Fyraltari thinking of

Spoiler: one particular individual

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Olórin

?

[Fyraltari]

Yes, I'd like to see Mystic Muse's take on the Valaquenta, when the Muse is up to it. And I wonder, is Fyraltari thinking of

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Olórin

?

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Correct. I can't check right now, but I think I remember that he is Gandalf isn't stared that early in the book.

[Bobb]

Re: Sympathy for Melkor.


I don't think he got any strikes against his record for his discordant music. He brought forth a lot of great stuff in his chaos. It's only after the head honcho goes 'all according to plan' on him that I believe it is even possible for Melkor to do evil.

He tried to subjugate others to his music and failed in his cruelty, ending up twisting others work rather than making his full inner potential and creating from his great chaos base. Guy squandered all his potential squashing other people's stuff in a hissy fit that he wasn't running the show.

I can easily imagine a scenario where Meklor goes, "cool. I'll keep doing my thing then" with Aule ending up as the bad guy because he cannot even that nobody has suppressed Meklor's independence so Aule can craft safely and ends up cruelly crafting more and more deleterious snares to prove to the other singers what a bad seed Meklor is.

I don't have anything new to add to the free will/omniscience/origin of evil discussion.

[Khedrac]

Yes, I'd like to see Mystic Muse's take on the Valaquenta, when the Muse is up to it. And I wonder, is Fyraltari thinking of

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Olórin

?

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Correct. I can't check right now, but I think I remember that he is Gandalf isn't stared that early in the book.

Unfinished Tales book 1 iirc - not in The Silmarillion at all.

[hamishspence]

Unfinished Tales book 1 iirc - not in The Silmarillion at all.

True - but LoTR (The Two Towers) does have him listing that name as one of his many names.

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Many are my names in many countries: Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.

[Sapphire Guard]

Going against the Eru's plan is not a problem.

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Aule does that by creating the dwarves, and the response is 'oh, awesome, but I need the elves to wake up first'

It's the intent to destroy or damage that causes the issue.

[Aedilred]

I think that's too bleak a reading, while evil is corruptive, we have several examples of characters committing evil acts but remaining on the side of the angels, so to speak.

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The people of the Houses of Finarfin and Fingolfin who take part in the First Kinslaying remain heroes. Elu Thingol betters himself by overcoming his prejudice against Men. Tùrin remaining a good guy of sort despite all the killing he's done.

And we all remember Boromir, right?

I think there's still a bleakness to it, mind.

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The House of Fingolfin take part in the Kinslaying virtually by mistake: they think the Teleri started it and join to defend their kinfolk. But they're still included in the overall Doom of the Noldor: Fingolfin, Fingon, etc. don't commit the evil deeds that the Sons of Feanor do, but they all die terrible deaths in Beleriand nonetheless. Finarfin managed to miss the First Kinslaying, and was able to avoid the Doom only by repenting and turning back, abandoning his brothers to die in Middle-Earth.

Boromir died a hero, but he died.

I don't remember Túrin's story well, but thanks to the polarised morality of the setting, killing seems to be broadly speaking ok so long as you confine your killing to the servants of evil. It wasn't the slaughter of Morgoth's followers that caused the Silmarils to burn Maedhros and Maglor, but the Second and Third Kinslayings. Assuming he didn't swat any of the good guys, Túrin probably gets a pass - and even then he died a tragic death.

Redemption in Tolkien's work seems to equal death. Once you start down the path to evil, the best you can hope for is that you die before you get there. The house of Finarfin is pretty much the only example I can think of to the contrary.

[Sapphire Guard]

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It's middle earth, plenty of heroic people have tragic deaths too, such as Gil galad and Elendil.

The paths of the Dead ghosts redeem themselves by fulfilling their oaths they foreswore.

[hamishspence]

That's a regular Heroic Death, rather than a Tragic Death.

[Sapphire Guard]

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So is Boromirs, then.

[Ramza00]

Going against the Eru's plan is not a problem.

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Aule does that by creating the dwarves, and the response is 'oh, awesome, but I need the elves to wake up first'

It's the intent to destroy or damage that causes the issue.

Who watches the watchmen? By which I mean this sidesteps the problem of authority, who gets to decide what is right and proper and who does not.

Of course Melkor crosses a line, dozens of times, and that is kind of the problem in the story if we want to talk about the problem of evil. When did he start violating boundaries and so on, in a world where there is destiny but not quite fate. The more marginal cases are actually the hardest to decide upon…but part of Tolkien’s mythos and values is that people get worse and worse unless they take steps to change.

[pendell]

Spoiler: On Illuvatar

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illuvatar's own words state that he knows full well what Melkor's actions will bring about, and that they are indeed part of his own plan to make the world.



He's outright stating that he incorporates Melkor's misdeeds and evil because it was part of his plan all along, hell he basically says he's the source of evil itself. It even implies Melkor was made specifically for the purpose of being the traitor that introduces evil into the work, so it would make a better creation by Illuvatar's standards.

Which would be sketchy enough if Melkor was a knowing actor playing a part that he had been told to, because it would mean Illuvatar prefers a story with people dying and suffering horribly over one where everyone is happy and enlightened. As is he comes across more like a robot that can feel pain, designed to fulfil a specific role in Illuvatar's real design without being aware of it, and suffering for almost his entire time on Arda, which isn't even fair to Melkor, let alone his own victims.

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Back to the GM analogy. Making it possible for your players to go on a murder spree and burn down the village because of a fight in a tavern doesn't mean the GM is actively willing them to do this. And any good GM will absolutely incorporate the players decisions and tendencies into the overall game rather than simply let their campaign be wrecked. As towards why he didn't simply kick Melkor from the table -- well, in the end Melkor WAS kicked from the table, but it was the other players *themselves* who did it rather than the GM himself.

Which might, from Illuvatar's perspective, be a better outcome than if he'd simply removed him from the table at the outset. Again, remember the dolls analogy. If you're going to give players the ability to abuse the system, sooner or later someone will. It's a variation on "If you stat it, they will kill it". In other words, if something is possible to happen within the game world it will. Perhaps leaving Melkor in as a challenge to the other players makes them better able to confront and resist Melkor-type evil than if he'd simply expelled him from the world in the beginning.

Which will bring me to my nonspoilery comment.

Good post Pendell, thank you.

For me, I don't think it's going to be possible to discuss many of the themes without including the parts of my values and character that I have to turn off to post within the forum rules. I'm going to happily follow the thread, but probably won't be engaging beyond superficial topics.

For me, there are parts of me that I never turn off but it doesn't mean I have to show them at full blast. It's like wearing clothes, really. We all know there's stuff underneath. That doesn't mean it's wise to show all of it to all audiences

At any rate, in that post -- and in the rest of this thread -- I'm trying to reason within the framework of middle-earth and stay away from the real-world subject. It's a question. Why would a creator allow subcreators in the work if the creator could do a better job alone? The answer I keep coming to over and over again is: Because the creation itself is not the point of the exercise.

If I was creating something and I was absolutely determined to get it right, you can be sure I wouldn't let anyone who I knew for sure wasn't up to the job within a thousand kilometers of it. Doubly so if I knew for a fact they meant to ruin it.

On the other hand, if the work is less a masterpiece and more an exercise for the student -- if this is more a classroom group project than it is the Mona Lisa -- then it makes sense if the work itself is less than perfect. The ultimate goal of the exercise is for the students to learn to exercise their talents and work together as a group. And if one or more members of the group are bad actors, perhaps its better to let the other students learn to manage this conflict than to simply have Teacher step in and solve all their problems for them. After all, once they've done their learning they can start a new project and do it better.

I could have sworn that this is mentioned somewhere in the Silmarillion that after the last battle all things will be made aright and anew but I can't find the reference right now and I have to go out the door. Does someone else have it on hand?

If this is true, then the "Middle Earth " we see and our characters fight and bleed in is not the final product, but simply the early access version of the product. I should hope that when they get to the halls of Mandos they spend their time writing up trouble tickets and bug reports, because there's plenty of room for improvement.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: Illuvatar and Vibes

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Illuvatar sees no harm done for all intelligent life gets an after life / is eternal in some way even if things and non intelligent life does not get such a thing.

The elves are immortal in the undying lands, and on the material plane they do reincarnate. We do not know all the particulars of the reincarnation, merely it happens, and it is shrouded in mystery. The in between step is Elves rest in a room in the hall of Mandos.

Likewise humans are eternal in a different way, they also go to the hall of Mandos but a different room, and where they go after is a mystery to all, yet their souls are still eternal, just the next place is a mystery.

Both humans and elves can be judged after death. Elves that are judged harsley remain in the reincarnation limbo in the hall of Mandos, not getting incarnated on Earth / Arda again. We also do not know what happens with any humans after their room in the hall of Mandos even though we do know they are judged.

We do not know what happens with the dwarves, and their are contradictory myths. Elves believe the dwarf soul sleeps in their bodies of earth. Dwarves believe they go to a third room of Mandos and they will participate in rebuilding the room after the final battle and the end times called Dagor Dagorath. Perhaps some Dwarves are special with the 7 first dwarves created by Aule will reincarnate like elves and the most famous of them Durin will reincarnate 7 times.

Tales and Myths are the trade of Tolkien, answers are not a game he plays, he gives you stories when you ask for answers.

—————

Thus we can infer from Illuvatar that he really cares about the vibes, and cares less about the things and the games we play. Since all souls are eternal, concepts like the world, things, memories, ptsd and trauma are impermanent things and thus the nature of essence is all souls change yet part of the soul is eternal, likewise all non intelligent life will pass away much like music fades but also echoes, and sometimes new melodies emerge.

Evil is a word for a child and thus the problem of evil is a child trying to grapple with contradictions we see without seeing the entire story. Ethics matters more than the concept of evil to Illuvatar but he will not explain what he means when he says the word ethics and we mortal and immortals souls can not “imprint” and take into being the ethics we can not see and thus we have a “partially”-failed imprinting.

Good post Pendell!

[Grim Portent]

Thing is the Illuvatar as a GM analogy doesn't work, because things in LOTR are predestined, it's just that only Illuvatar is aware of that destiny in it's entirety, part and parcel of being omniscient and omnipotent. None of the Ainur can tell what's going to come to pass with certainty, though Gandalf implies they have some knowledge of what is to come that is more or less certain in other works, but Illuvatar states, in somewhat flowery language, that he can and that everything is part of his plan, including the rebellion of Melkor and his followers. He claims Melkor's rebellion is part of the design, which given that he made Melkor means he made him to be evil, to play the role of antagonist. And this is the version of events the Ainur passed down to the elves, which given that most of them love Illuvatar and hold Melkor in contempt makes me think this version is still biased in Illuvatar's favour, and it still makes Illuvatar look like a controlling ******* to me.

Spoiler: Includes a bit of future events from the book.

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Illuvatar could have taken any number of actions to make the issue of evil never come up without impinging on free will, which he winds up doing on several occasion anyway so I don't buy that he even cares about the pretence of free will when it matters. He was perfectly content to genocide the Numenorians when they decided to follow the influence of Morgoth and Sauron and defy the Valar, while letting Morgoth and Sauron go without any meaningful punishment, as opposed to letting the Numenorians do their thing and let everyone else in Arda deal with it like all of Melkor's direct malice.

If Illuvatar genuinely wanted peers, associates and fellow creators, he could have spent some time actually teaching them, letting them discuss and debate what kind of world to make with full knowledge before starting the song of creation and with some of them choosing roles to play like actors preparing for a show. Or y'know, he could have made more gods rather than angels who were unable to create things without him and just had faith that some of them would want to stick around for a group project. Given them the actual freedom to decide if they wanted to be a part of his creation rather than stuck between serving him and living in the distant void outside of time.

Notably Melkor has two choices at the very beginning, go off and try to make something himself, which he can't do because he wasn't made with the ability to do so, or submit to Illuvatars rule. Melkor's choices are essentially death or submission. The first real decision he makes is to try and twist the song, but even that was part of the creator's plan and subsumed into Illuvatar's work.

[Grim Portent]

This form of cosmology is both deist and not deist, Illuvatar is the creator but he is not going to fix the mess that he did not make, yet which he allowed. It is all of us, our responsibility to repair the world and to create new things, yet not get too attached to the form of things, for everything changes, form is impermanent. Also some of our neighbors are [censored] jerks like Melkor.

And yet he does intervene on a few occasions, just not occasions that will actually prevent colossal suffering and preempt the other occasions he intervenes to prevent lesser suffering.

[pendell]

Thing is the Illuvatar as a GM analogy doesn't work, because things in LOTR are predestined, it's just that only Illuvatar is aware of that destiny in it's entirety, part and parcel of being omniscient and omnipotent. None of the Ainur can tell what's going to come to pass with certainty, though Gandalf implies they have some knowledge of what is to come that is more or less certain in other works, but Illuvatar states, in somewhat flowery language, that he can and that everything is part of his plan, including the rebellion of Melkor and his followers. He claims Melkor's rebellion is part of the design, which given that he made Melkor means he made him to be evil, to play the role of antagonist. And this is the version of events the Ainur passed down to the elves, which given that most of them love Illuvatar and hold Melkor in contempt makes me think this version is still biased in Illuvatar's favour, and it still makes Illuvatar look like a controlling ******* to me.

Allowing Melkor's actions to be part of his plan doesn't mean he willed Melkor to do these things or to be evil. I've played a game called Paradox Factor. You can go back and replay the story over and over again, but there's no such thing as a happy ending. Because whatever choices you make, unless you're going to take away the power of choice entirely from other people there's no way to avoid their bad choices causing misery. You can contain or limit the damage, certainly, but you can't have Happy Families. I'm not sure you would get Happy Families even if you threw everything away and started from scratch.

Making allowances for other people's bad behavior in your plan is not the same thing as either being the author of it or of encouraging it. During WWII condoms were standard issue to soldiers and "short-arm inspection" was a common occurrence. It's not that the powers that be wanted this to happen, but they knew darn well, humans being humans, that if they didn't make allowance for this sort of thing venereal disease would ravage the ranks.

Spoiler: Includes a bit of future events from the book.

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Illuvatar could have taken any number of actions to make the issue of evil never come up without impinging on free will, which he winds up doing on several occasion anyway so I don't buy that he even cares about the pretence of free will when it matters. He was perfectly content to genocide the Numenorians when they decided to follow the influence of Morgoth and Sauron and defy the Valar, while letting Morgoth and Sauron go without any meaningful punishment, as opposed to letting the Numenorians do their thing and let everyone else in Arda deal with it like all of Melkor's direct malice.

The Akallabeth we will discuss in its place, I think. Otherwise we'll be having long greenboxed discussions which may annoy the other readers.

If Illuvatar genuinely wanted peers, associates and fellow creators, he could have spent some time actually teaching them, letting them discuss and debate what kind of world to make with full knowledge before starting the song of creation and with some of them choosing roles to play like actors preparing for a show.

He did , though. The first paragraph of the Ainulindale tells us that the Ainur were the 'offspring of his thought', and they sang first by themselves, lesser pieces , or only a few at a time while the rest listened. "For each comprehended the mind of Illuvatar from which [they] came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in harmony.

Second paragraph starts "And it came to pass that Illuvatar called together all the Ainur and propounded to them a mighty theme ..."


So it's not like they were just brought into existence and made to sing this symphony. They "grew but slowly" and it took a long time for them to learn, first to play music alone and bit by bit to achieve a unity and harmony with the others.

How long did this all take?

Well, it says this was a "slow" process, and how slow is "slow" to beings who were alive at the world's foundation? I don't think it was five minutes.

Hundreds of years? Thousands? Millions? Billions?

Who can say? It wasn't important to the story, so Tolkien didn't spell it out. But I think it fair to say that Melkor was no unprepared child when this work took place, and Melkor had already existed for many human lifetimes as a being of immense power before the rebellion.

Or y'know, he could have made more gods rather than angels who were unable to create things without him and just had faith that some of them would want to stick around for a group project. Given them the actual freedom to decide if they wanted to be a part of his creation rather than stuck between serving him and living in the distant void outside of time.

Well, there are two points to make to this. In the first place, they ARE gods , at least as much as Mystra and Cyric are in the Forgotten Realms. That setting has an overgod called Ao who creates and administers the setting. Doesn't interact directly with mortals. Ao's a god of gods, not of mortals.

That's not at all uncommon in polytheisms , real or fictional. In a polytheistic world, it's pretty rare for gods to be self-existent from the creation of the world. They usually are brought into it, perhaps fathered by another god (see: Zeus and his pantheon) or created (see: Tolkien) or ascended mortals (see: Hercules). They had a definite beginning point, they are ruling the world but are certainly neither all-powerful nor all-knowing, and they have an ending point as well (Gotterdammerung).

So yes, I am comfortable describing the Ainur as gods. How they differ from Zeus and company is there is a noticeable lack of changing into bulls to woo other men's wives or turning women into spiders after losing a contest or turning a hunter spying on a naked goddess bathing into a stag to be eaten by his own hounds. These are gods spruced up and given a bit of polish to be presentable in Victorian society.

The second point is that I'm not at all sure Illuvatar COULD make them like him even if he wanted to, "Omnipotent" notwithstanding.

I say this because I have this idea of "Illuvatar" as being a name for creative force. Whatever-it-is that caused a universe with trees and stars and people to exist, in defiance of the second law of thermodynamics .

If this force, counter to entropy, were in fact conscious with a mind in the Tolkien-verse, it's name would be Illuvatar. So I contend.

And if that is the way of it, I don't see how Illuvatar could create another Force exactly like his own in the cosmos, and it would be folly to tell Melkor to try making something absent this creative force. It would be like telling someone they needed to illuminate a room , only not to use light to do so.

Perhaps he could have given Melkor a portion of this creative force -- if Melkor could have accepted it -- and shunted him off to a demiplane to be God of all by himself. That would mean there would be an entire plane of existence of which Melkor would be the only god, and if he made of it anything like what he would make of Utumno and Angband, I should think the inhabitants of such a place would have good reason to curse Illuvatar (though they would never know him) for abandoning them to the rule of such a being.

Although I have to wonder if Melkor could have taken this creative force as he was even if it was freely offered. Because if "love" is any part of this creative force, which perhaps parents experience when they bring a child into the world, then I'm not sure someone utterly without love could be able to take hold of it however much he and everyone else would want to. Absent love or compassion, I think he would suffer Raistlin's fate from the dragonlance legends -- to overthrow all the gods and to rule alone over a dead world. Being without love or creativity of his own, to be able to survive only by devouring others, and when all else is devoured to at last devour oneself, Ouroboros with its own tail in its mouth, forever and ever and ever.

All things considered, it may be his actual fate is preferable than to experience such utter, eternal despair and hunger.

Respectfully ,

Brian P.

[PontificatusRex]

Pendell continues to rock this discussion.

Thing is the Illuvatar as a GM analogy doesn't work, because things in LOTR are predestined, it's just that only Illuvatar is aware of that destiny in it's entirety, part and parcel of being omniscient and omnipotent.

I think it's a lot more complicated - which is fitting, as Tolkien was a great artist and great artists know existence is complicated and messy and if you want your art to be at all relevant to real life you can't portray things simplistically.

There is a mix of predestination and choice mixing through Tolkien's work. In good ol' Appendix A we're told that the parents of Aragorn's mother Gilraen both foresaw an early death for his father Arathorn. Gilraen's dad regarded this as a reason to forbid their marriage, but her wiser mother said "No, that's more reason for them to get married now so the line of Isildur doesn't end with him". And yes, Arathorn died very soon after Aragorn was born. Seems like fixed destiny, but maybe not. Maybe if he hadn't married Gilraen Arathorn would have died but instead of fighting monsters in the wilderness he was depressed and bitter and got knifed while drunk in a bar brawl at The Prancing Pony.

Aragorn also had a prophecy regarding him - either he would ascend to kingship and restore the Dunedain's glory, or he would be the last of Elendil's line and darkness would win. I think that ""or" is very important - the future isn't fixed, and yet events are converging so that only two outcomes are withing the realm of possibility. It's interesting that there's no chance that, say, Frodo destroys the Ring but Aragorn is then killed by a random arrow in the aftermath of the battle at Mordor's gates.

The story I find most interesting happens way back in the middle of the Third Age, involving Arvedui, last king of the northern Dunedain. A fellow named Malbeth the Seer (sounds pretty reliable) foretells at his birth:

"Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again.”

As we know, Gondor chose not to accept Arvedui's claim to their throne, and everything continued to dwindle and generally go to hell for the next few centuries. But I find it interesting that the history of Middle Earth could have been completely different. It seems like Destiny and historical forces shape things in Middle Earth up to a point, and then people have free will to make choices withing the bounds of those forces. Not unlike the world we live in, really.

[Mystic Muse]

Update coming later tonight. Getting a friend's hard drive issue fixed took longer than expected, and I had already determined I would be streaming in about 20 minutes.

Here if anyone feels like watching Megaman X3: Zero Project.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, onto getting this done tonight like I promised.

Spoiler: Valaquenta: Account of the Valar and Maiar According to the Lore of the Eldar

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So, we get a short summary of what happened in the first chapter. The Valar go to Ea, that is more vast than man or elf can comprehend, and the Flame Imperishable is at the center of it.

The Lords of the Valar are Seven, and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar are seven as well. The lords are Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien and Tulkas. The Queens of the Valar are Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Este, Vaire, Vana and Nessa. There are uncountable names among men for each of the Lords and ladies of the Valar. Melkor is no longer counted among the Valar and his name is not spoken of on Earth.

Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thoughts of Illuvatar. Melkor is the mighiest of the Ainur, but Manwe is dearest to Illuvatar. Manwe is lord of the winds, and Sulimo he is surnamed, Lord of the Breath of Arda. All winged things are his domnion, and birds fly because he wills them to.

With Manwe is the lady of Light, Varda, surnamed Elbereth. Melkor she knew from before the making of the music, and she rejected him. Melkor hated and feared her above all others. While she is at Manwe's side, Manwe sees further than all others, and while Manwe is at her side, Varda hears more clearly than all others.

Next we hear of Ulmo who lives alone in the sea, and does not stay in one place for long. Unlike the other Valar, he does not put a raiment upon himself and walk among men, for he is terrifying to behold, as a wave upon land would be. Yet still he hears much of the news on Arda that would otherwise not be heard by Manwe.

Then we hear of Aule who delights in craft, and Earth is his dominion. All gems, gold, and other things that can be found within the earth are his works, and he delights in them.

I do like this note of how Melkor "spent his spirit in envy and hate, until at last he could make nothing, save in mockery of others."

Aule's spouse is Yavanna, the giver of fruits. She loves all things that grow in the earth, from the mightiest trees that ever grew to the moss growing on the stone.

The masters of spirits are often called Mandos and Lorien, but in truth these are their dwelling places, and their true names are Namo and Irmo. I was already have trouble keeping track of all these names Tolkien, and now you tell me that these aren't even their actual names?

Namo the elder dwells in Mandos, and is the keeper of the houses of the dead. He is the doomsman of the Valar, but does not give out his dooms save at the bidding of Manwe. I have to say, "doomsman" is a really cool title. He forgets nothing and knows all that shall be, save that which lies still within the freedom of Illuvatar. His spouse is Vaire, who weaves all things that have ever been in Time into her storied webs. I doubt she has anything to do with the giant spiders in middle earth, but this seems like a very specific metaphor to make.

Irmo the younger is the master of visions and dreams, and Este the gentle, healer of hurts and weariness is his spouse. They both rest in Lorien, one of the most beautiful places in all of Arda, such that even the Valar adore it.

Mightier than Este is Nienna, who dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns every wound Arda suffered in being marred by Melkor. So great was her sorrow as the music unfolded that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, but she does not weep for herself. She does not often visit the city of Valimar where all is glad, preferring the Halls of Mandos, nearer to her own home which is west of West.

Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid in the fights with Melkor. He delights in tests of strength and rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, his flesh ruddy, and his weapons are his hands.

His spouse is Nessa. Deer she loves, and they follow her train whenever she goes into the wild but she is swifter than they. Dancing is her delight and she dances in Valimar on lawns of never-fading green.

Lastly we have Orome. If he is less strong than Tulkas, he is more dreadful in anger. Orome most loved Middle Earth and came last to Valinor, returning as frequently as he was able to the hills. He is a hunter of monsters and fells beasts, and he delights in horses and hounds. All trees he loves, which is why he is called Aldaron and by the Sindar Tauron. Nahar is his horse and Valaroma is his horn. The spouse of Orome is Vana the ever-young. Flowers spring at her passing, and all birds sing at her coming. That's all that's said about Vana, which seems...silly?


Among them, nine were of chief power and reverence, though one was removed from their number and eight remain, the high ones of Arda. Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos Nienne and Orome. Though Manwe is their king and holds their allegiance under Eru, in majesty they are peers.

Spoiler: Of the Maiar

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With the Valar came other beings who existed before the world, of the same order but lesser degree. Their number is unknown to men and elves, and few among them have any names among the children of Illuvatar.

Chief among the names of the Maiar of Valinor that are remembered in the elder days are Ilmare the handmaid of Varda and Eonwe the banner-bearer and herald of Manwe. But of all the Maiar, Osse and Uinen are most well-known to the children of Illuvatar. Osse delights in storms and violent seas, and Uinen delights in the creatures of the seas. Uinen was worshiped by the Numenoreans, for she was able to calm Osse's wild temper, and the wild storms he would conjure up.

Melkor hated the sea for he could not subdue it, and in the making of Arda endeavored to bring Osse under his allegiance, offering him all the dominion of Ulmo. This worked for a time, until Uinen at request by Aule brought Osse before Ulmo, and Ulmo was pardoned and his loyalty restored. The love of violenc never quite left Osse, and he still creates violent storms at a whim to this day.

Melian was the name of a Maia that served both Este and Vana. Nightingales sang about her wherever she went.

Wisest of the Maia was Olorin, and he dwelt often in Lorien but his travels also took him to the house of Nienna, who taught him pity and patience. Much is told of Melian in the Quenta Silmarillion but of Olorin that tale does not speak. In his later days he became friend to all the children of Illuvatar, and those who listened to him were lifted from despair and out of the imaginations of darkness.

Spoiler: Of the Enemies

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Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He Who Arises in Might, but that name he has forfeited. The Noldor, those among the elves who have suffered the most at his hands name him Morgoth, the Dark Enemy of the World. He squandered his strength in tyranny. From splendor he fell through arrogance into contempt for all things save himself. He began with the desire of light but descended into fire, darkness and wrath when he could not possess it for his own. And darkness he used in his most evil works.

Some of the maiar were with him originally in splendour. Others, he corrupted with lies and treacherous gifts after falling into wrath, flame and darkness. Among these were the Vaulrakar, dreadful demons of shadow and flame that were called the Balrogs on Middle Earth. Among his servants that have names, the greatest of his servants was the one whom the Eldar call Sauron or Gorthar the Cruel. Originally of the Maiar of Aule, Sauron remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the works of Melkor the Morgoth, Sauron played a part, and is only less evil for having served another and not himself. But in later years, Sauron rose like a shadow of Morgoth, and followed him on the same ruinous path down into the void.

I...Feel like I must have skipped this somehow? I'm extremely disappointed in myself that I somehow forgot about Varda, she sounds awesome.

The Maiar are interesting. I know which one someone was asking if I would recognize, but I will not spoil it. Honestly, if I didn't already know the name, I would not have linked it up to the person I know of.

I have to stop here tonight. This weekend was way more packed than I expected it to be and I have work in the morning.

I particularly love the notes about Varda, Melkor and his envy, and the bit about Sauron.

[Fyraltari]

I was already have trouble keeping track of all these names Tolkien, and now you tell me that these aren't even their actual names?

You'll have to get used to that, I'm afraid

The spouse of Orome is Vana the ever-young. Flowers spring at her passing, and all birds sing at her coming. That's all that's said about Vana, which seems...silly?

I think you could charitably interpret her as a goddess of spring, but yes, some of the Valar (especially the Valier) didn't get jobs as cool as the others.

I...Feel like I must have skipped this somehow? I'm extremely disappointed in myself that I somehow forgot about Varda, she sounds awesome.

It's not that surprising: though awesome she does sound, she hardly ever does anything.

The Maiar are interesting. I know which one someone was asking if I would recognize, but I will not spoil it. Honestly, if I didn't already know the name, I would not have linked it up to the person I know of.

Good enough!

[Eldan]

Yeah... you haven't seen anything namewise, sadly. YOu aren't even at all the Fin-s and -wes yet.

[Fyraltari]

YOu aren't even at all the [...] -wes yet.

The who now?

[Grim Portent]

It's not that surprising: though awesome she does sound, she hardly ever does anything.

To be fair most of the Valar don't do much of note. Not surprising given that there are 14 and most of them never leave the West after they move there.

Spoiler: The ones I remember actually being relevant to the story in future

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Tulkas is basically the greatest foe of Morgoth, and the only Valar who usually wants to actually stop him from being evil by force. Probably the person most responsible for Morgoth not ruling/ruining absolutely everything.

Manwe is their leader, mostly acts as a voice for the Valar as a whole or gets birds to tell people things. IIRC it's him who ask Feanor for the Silmarils and is refused. He also helps give hope to an elven king Morgoth chains to a mountain as torture by having birds tell him of good things happening that he cannot see from where he is trapped. Rather than sending someone to go free him.

Namo. Is involved in the tale Luthien and Beren, and is probably the Valar who proclaimed the Doom of Mandos upon the Noldor, but I don't recall if the text outright says it was him specifically.

Aule makes the dwarves, a few magical items used in the Silmarillion, and teaches the elves to make things, which in turn contributes to the many F-names and their many f-ing mistakes.

Ulmo does a bunch of little things as I recall, but is one of the more active Valar.

Orome finds the elves, and leads some of them to the West while the others refuse because the stars in the land they awoke were pretty, then basically doesn't do anything important afterwards.

I had honestly forgotten that Irmo even existed.

I think most of the other stuff that actually matters is done by a handful of Maiar, indeed I recall the most active female spirits being Maiar rather than Valar, but soon enough the story deals primarily with the elves and Morgoth.

Interesting side note, Namo was actually called Mandos in some drafts of the work, and is usually still referred to as Mandos which honestly just sounds better anyway. In the early drafts of the elvish languages his name meant Dread Imprisoner.

[Eldan]

The who now?

Finwe, Elwe, Olwe, Ingwe. And of course Manwe, but he's not an elf. I'm probably forgetting some.

[Grim Portent]

I find it weird that Tolkien gave so many of his characters near identical names in the Silmarillion when he wasn't so bad about it in the LotR, at least with characters who weren't already dead apart from Boromir and Faramir. Several of them were originally one person and it seems he just didn't bother making entirely new names when he split them up in later drafts, but sometimes it comes across as deciding to split up a character named Ragnar into several and naming the people who take the splt off portions Hagnar, Lagnar and Bagnar, kind of lazy and confusing when it wouldn't have taken much time to give them more distinct names.

In the Hobbit with the dwarves it makes more sense to me, the dwarves names come in rhyming pairs to make them easy for kids to remember and to flow well as a list when read aloud.

In the Silmarillion it just gets confusing and annoying at times. I remember when I last read it I started to gloss over the names of a lot of the relatives of Feanor because they were basically just copies of him.



Also, odd thought, are Merry and Pippin the only characters in Tolkien's works who get referred to primarily by nicknames rather than their proper name? Merry is an abbreviated nickname for Meriadoc, and Pippin is actually named Peregrin, but everyone else I can recall uses their full first name, often including titles or a reference to lineage. I suppose Gandalf might count since it's not his real name, but it comes across more as a pseudonym than a nickname.

EDIT: Just remembered Aragorn goes by Strider at times. Though I'm not sure who gave him that nickname.

[DavidSh]

Also, odd thought, are Merry and Pippin the only characters in Tolkien's works who get referred to primarily by nicknames rather than their proper name? Merry is an abbreviated nickname for Meriadoc, and Pippin is actually named Peregrin, but everyone else I can recall uses their full first name, often including titles or a reference to lineage. I suppose Gandalf might count since it's not his real name, but it comes across more as a pseudonym than a nickname.

EDIT: Just remembered Aragorn goes by Strider at times. Though I'm not sure who gave him that nickname.

So far in the Silmarillion we have met Varda and Melkor, who later are often called Elbereth and Morgoth. Later on we will meet Elwe, who uses another name for most of the story. Maybe these are also pseudonyms.

[Mechalich]

I find it weird that Tolkien gave so many of his characters near identical names in the Silmarillion when he wasn't so bad about it in the LotR, at least with characters who weren't already dead apart from Boromir and Faramir. Several of them were originally one person and it seems he just didn't bother making entirely new names when he split them up in later drafts, but sometimes it comes across as deciding to split up a character named Ragnar into several and naming the people who take the splt off portions Hagnar, Lagnar and Bagnar, kind of lazy and confusing when it wouldn't have taken much time to give them more distinct names.

It seems to be mostly an issue of lineage. The various lineages detailed in the appendices of Return of the King have plenty of name repetition among such groups as the dwarves and the [url=https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Kings_of_Gondorkings of gondor[/url] and so forth. Most of the characters who appear in LotR aren't related to each other and so we basically get only one name from each lineage at a time, but most of those people are related to other people not appearing in the book who have similar names.

The Silmarillion has the double problem of being highly concerned with lineage and that most of the major characters are elves who can't die of natural causes, leading to a proliferation of people with similar names who are around at the same time.

[Grim Portent]

So far in the Silmarillion we have met Varda and Melkor, who later are often called Elbereth and Morgoth. Later on we will meet Elwe, who uses another name for most of the story. Maybe these are also pseudonyms.

Morgoth is more of a title, since it's basially just the elves calling him 'the enemy.' Elbereth is just the Sindarin name for Varda, while Varda is her Quenya name. Elwe's alternate name I'm less sure about, but it doesn't feel like a nickname but more like how various real life authority figures take new names when they ascend to their position.

It seems to be mostly an issue of lineage. The various lineages detailed in the appendices of Return of the King have plenty of name repetition among such groups as the dwarves and the [url=https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Kings_of_Gondorkings of gondor[/url] and so forth. Most of the characters who appear in LotR aren't related to each other and so we basically get only one name from each lineage at a time, but most of those people are related to other people not appearing in the book who have similar names.

The Silmarillion has the double problem of being highly concerned with lineage and that most of the major characters are elves who can't die of natural causes, leading to a proliferation of people with similar names who are around at the same time.

Thing is that lineage based name repetition tends to be more direct and only occur once a generation for a given family branch. In a British lineage naming context, the one with which Tolkien would have been most familiar, it used to be common that the oldest child is often named after their father or grandfather, then subsequent children are named after other relatives or figures of cultural or spiritual significance.

My family as an example, my paternal grandfather was Alexander, my father in turn was Alexander, my oldest sibling is Alexis, my elder brother is Alexander. My other sister and I do not have any variant of Alex in our names because the tradition does not apply to us because of when we were born relative to our siblings. All of us have middle names referencing other relatives from prior generations or the maiden names of female relatives in one case.

Another example would be the Stewart/Stuart royal family of Scotland and England with their successive James and Charles who were repeatedly named after one another. Or Henry VII and his son Henry VIII.

It would make more sense for names to repeat over generations than for someone name their kids all near identical names, and then them to name their kids a different set of near identical names. It would also be easier to read in many ways. It would be easier imo to read the affairs of the Noldor for example if we had Feanor and his siblings all given more distinct names, which then get reused by other characters down the line than it is to read them as they are. For instance, I would be much less inclined to confuse Feanor with a nephew of his also named Feanor than I am to confuse all his brothers with one another.

[Corvus]

The naming scheme makes sense if you look at it from a historical perspective, especially when dealing with nobility. They were always reusing names or choosing very similar sounding names. While historical, it doesn't always work as well from a literary perspective where it is better to have very different names to help the readers keep track of who is who.

Varda is better known as Elbereth, and it is by that name that she gets mentioned a number of times in the Lord of the Rings, the only one of the Valar that does from memory. And yeah, she is impressive.

Tulkas seems a bit of an odd one out. While the others come across as Romano-Greek influenced, he seems more Germanic or Slavic influenced. Even his name seems to sound like its from a different language than the rest.

[Fyraltari]

I find it weird that Tolkien gave so many of his characters near identical names in the Silmarillion when he wasn't so bad about it in the LotR, at least with characters who weren't already dead apart from Boromir and Faramir. Several of them were originally one person and it seems he just didn't bother making entirely new names when he split them up in later drafts, but sometimes it comes across as deciding to split up a character named Ragnar into several and naming the people who take the splt off portions Hagnar, Lagnar and Bagnar, kind of lazy and confusing when it wouldn't have taken much time to give them more distinct names.

Tolkien's writing was heavily inspired by the medieval germanic culture(s) where it was relatively common to name children by using parts of their parents' names.
It's also relatively common in myhtologies to have related people with similar sounding names both to make it easier to remember (they usually don't have much in the way of individual characterisation anyway) and because they often embody similar concepts.
Which leads me to:

In the Hobbit with the dwarves it makes more sense to me, the dwarves names come in rhyming pairs to make them easy for kids to remember and to flow well as a list when read aloud.

Except that Tolkien did not invent those names. They are quite famously taken from a scandinavian poem that lists off a bunch of dwarves at one point (including one named Gandalf).

Also, odd thought, are Merry and Pippin the only characters in Tolkien's works who get referred to primarily by nicknames rather than their proper name? Merry is an abbreviated nickname for Meriadoc, and Pippin is actually named Peregrin, but everyone else I can recall uses their full first name, often including titles or a reference to lineage. I suppose Gandalf might count since it's not his real name, but it comes across more as a pseudonym than a nickname.

EDIT: Just remembered Aragorn goes by Strider at times. Though I'm not sure who gave him that nickname.

The people of Bree did.

The difference between a proper name, a pseudonym and a nickname is also rather blurry in Middle-Earth anyway. Gandalf has a bazillion names given to him by all the different cultures he interacts with, Aragorn could drown under all the titles he has, all the noldorin elves have a name given by each parent, all the Valar have different names in different languages.

Which, again, reflects real-world mythologies pretty well. To get back to Namo/Mandos, it's not a rare phenomenon for people to avoid using the name of "dark" gods, especially if linked with death, and end up using euphemisms like "The wealthiest of the gods" "he who eventually rules over all men" or the name of their domain.