Mystic Muse reads The Silmarillion.

[DavidSh]

I'll also point that Sam's formal name, as listed in the genealogies, is Samwise. (Or Banazir, as detailed in the section on translation.)

[pendell]

It wouldn't be the Silmarillion if there wasn't music to go with some of the characters. The group Oonagh wrote themes for at least some of them.

Nienna , the weeper

Aule and Yavanna

Orome, the Hunter

There may be others, but that's all I can find at the moment.

Nienna is the first Goth. Though she weeps for the world, her tears bring about comfort and strength to bear the pain, much like Jazz music can do. Olorin is her pupil. Olorin and Curumo (of Curunir) are Maiar of particular note because we will encounter them later, though they will be given other names when we encounter them. Elbereth, also known as Varda, is revered by the elves all throughout the Lord of the Rings. Kind of odd that they admire Varda herself but pay very little attention to her husband, especially after he's the one who sends the Eagles to save their bacon repeatedly.

Here's another thing -- all the valar are either male or female, some are married and others not. But why? Valar aren't humans. Could they take either form? Why did they choose one or the other and stay with it, rather than changing around? With humans, of course, that takes surgery and hormone treatments but the Valar can take any form they choose at will, and can also walk "unclad", as disembodied spirits.

So why must they take male and female form and then be 'married' to one another? So far as we can tell, they don't have children or families. Some of the Maiar have families with the elves, but we don't see any of the unions of the Valar or the Maiar bearing fruit.

I don't know if we've got quite that far in the story yet, but Tulkas is mentioned as coming to Middle Earth and then becoming espoused. This implied he was genderless as an Ainur but took male form when he came to Middle Earth, as if Male/Female is something they need to be embodied as Valar in middle earth but is meaningless to the Ainur outside the world. Could they leave the world and put it aside?

To what extent is gender an unchanging part of their identity and to what extent is it merely an artifact of life in middle-earth?

Also, how did Tulkas meet his bride? Is there a singles bar in Valinor for gods? Are there love triangles and gossip and first dates and all the rest of it?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

Going back to the name discussion, another part of the problem there is that the Silmarillion was always a developing work in the hands of JRRT himself--it wasn't until after his death that his son Christopher put together the book we have from the best approximation of his father's notes he could, and he didn't always get it right. Characters would change names simply because Tolkien found a better one for them, but Christopher would include both because he didn't know which one was correct, or else some other story elsewhere referred to the other name and so it was considered important.

[Eldan]

I think the best reference for the repeating names are the Anglosaxons. There's like five king Æthelstans, including Æthelstan son of Æthelwulf, who, confusingly, had his biography written by Æthelweard (no relation, I think?). Then of course there's Æthelstan Ætheling, son of Æthelstan the Unready and Ælfgifu of York.
Or Edward the Elder, whose children were called (according to Wikipedia) Edwin, Eadgifu, Eadhild, Eadgyth, Edmund, Eadred and Eadburh. Or Edmund the first, who had children named Edwig and Edgar and was succeeded by Eadred and then Eadwig. Or the great Æthelwulf, King of Wessex, whose children were Æthelstan, King of Kent, Æthelswith, Queen of Mercia, Æthelbald, King of Wessex, Æthelberht, King of Wessex, Æthelred I, King of Wessex and Alfred the Great. And so on.

That's one of the time periods and cultures that Tolkien was an expert on.

[Khedrac]

It wouldn't be the Silmarillion if there wasn't music to go with some of the characters.

If you want musical settings of Tolkein's poetry that Tolkein got to personally approve then check out the works of Donald Swann, anything else is just fan-music by people who didn't/couldn't get feedback from the author.

[Grim Portent]

I think the best reference for the repeating names are the Anglosaxons. There's like five king Æthelstans, including Æthelstan son of Æthelwulf, who, confusingly, had his biography written by Æthelweard (no relation, I think?). Then of course there's Æthelstan Ætheling, son of Æthelstan the Unready and Ælfgifu of York.
Or Edward the Elder, whose children were called (according to Wikipedia) Edwin, Eadgifu, Eadhild, Eadgyth, Edmund, Eadred and Eadburh. Or Edmund the first, who had children named Edwig and Edgar and was succeeded by Eadred and then Eadwig. Or the great Æthelwulf, King of Wessex, whose children were Æthelstan, King of Kent, Æthelswith, Queen of Mercia, Æthelbald, King of Wessex, Æthelberht, King of Wessex, Æthelred I, King of Wessex and Alfred the Great. And so on.

That's one of the time periods and cultures that Tolkien was an expert on.

Urgh, I haven't had to look at the Anglo-Saxon Aethel-tide ad the Ed/Ead frequency since I was about ten and reading a book about the early medieval period. Still feels like the most needlessly awkward set of names I've ever seen, but only in the instances where they used it for multiple children at once.

Aethelstan, son of Aethelstan feels fine, it's intuitive and easy to remember and just keep an eye on when the elder dies. Aethelwulf of Essex's children however are collectively horrendous to remember individually for me.


EDIT: @Pendell, not only do the Valar have gender, they also have siblings despite being sprung from nothing by Illuvatar's whim. Presumably Illuvatar conceived of each of them in sets, creating them with a gender preference and a familial bond with other Valar created for that purpose. As for why? Who knows, Illuvatar never explains much.

Interesting side note, Varda rejected Melkor even before he started acting out in the song of creation. Supposedly she could see what he was at heart even then. What is meant by rejection in this context is unclear, but it's possible the Ainur were forming relationships even then.

[J-H]

I was going to mention Christopher, but someone beat me to it. He's not particularly famous, but I think everyone will agree he did an excellent job with his father's works, including keeping the barbarians and vultures away and making sure all adaptations fit reasonably well within the original vision.

I think the best reference for the repeating names are the Anglosaxons. There's like five king Æthelstans, including Æthelstan son of Æthelwulf, who, confusingly, had his biography written by Æthelweard (no relation, I think?). Then of course there's Æthelstan Ætheling, son of Æthelstan the Unready and Ælfgifu of York.
Or Edward the Elder, whose children were called (according to Wikipedia) Edwin, Eadgifu, Eadhild, Eadgyth, Edmund, Eadred and Eadburh. Or Edmund the first, who had children named Edwig and Edgar and was succeeded by Eadred and then Eadwig. Or the great Æthelwulf, King of Wessex, whose children were Æthelstan, King of Kent, Æthelswith, Queen of Mercia, Æthelbald, King of Wessex, Æthelberht, King of Wessex, Æthelred I, King of Wessex and Alfred the Great. And so on.

That's one of the time periods and cultures that Tolkien was an expert on.

My eyes crossed at this. Oi.

[hamishspence]

Here's another thing -- all the valar are either male or female, some are married and others not. But why? Valar aren't humans. Could they take either form? Why did they choose one or the other and stay with it, rather than changing around? With humans, of course, that takes surgery and hormone treatments but the Valar can take any form they choose at will, and can also walk "unclad", as disembodied spirits.

So why must they take male and female form and then be 'married' to one another? So far as we can tell, they don't have children or families. Some of the Maiar have families with the elves, but we don't see any of the unions of the Valar or the Maiar bearing fruit.

In the new-ish Beren and Luthien book, Melian the Maiar is described at one point as a daughter of the Ainur. Perhaps some of the Valar do reproduce, creating Maiar children? Still, it's an early version - Tolkien may have moved away from that as a Maiar origin story.

[Eldan]

Urgh, I haven't had to look at the Anglo-Saxon Aethel-tide ad the Ed/Ead frequency since I was about ten and reading a book about the early medieval period. Still feels like the most needlessly awkward set of names I've ever seen, but only in the instances where they used it for multiple children at once.

Aethelstan, son of Aethelstan feels fine, it's intuitive and easy to remember and just keep an eye on when the elder dies. Aethelwulf of Essex's children however are collectively horrendous to remember individually for me.

Thank the Normans, I suppose. They replaced it all with nice Henris and Williams and Charleses.

[Metastachydium]

nice Henris and Williams and Charleses

Did you mean Henris, Guillaume-s and Charles-s?

[Grim Portent]

Thank the Normans, I suppose. They replaced it all with nice Henris and Williams and Charleses.

Eh, up here we got rid of them after the battle of Carham a few decades before the Normans showed up.

Course we have our own historic names that probably seem hard to parse these days I suppose. The kings of Alba at the time were apparently Ildulb[1] mac Causantín who took Edinburgh from the Anglo-Saxons, whose sons were Cuilan[2], Amlaib[3] and Eochaid[4], and then the later king Máel Coluim[5] mac Cináeda who took the rest of Lothian.

I've never bothered to learn Gaelic, so I'm not 100% on how to pronounce any of those properly.

Anglicised versions of the names; [1]Indulf, [2]Colin, [3]Might be a gaelicised version of the name Olaf because of some norse ancestry, [4]Hector of all things, and [5]Malcolm.

Interestingly three of those names are still used today in their modern variants. Well technically four I guess, but Olaf isn't a common name in the UK.

[Fyraltari]

Did you mean Henris, Guillaume-s and Charles-s?

Did you mean Aymerics, Williames and Carles?
These are approximations, but the anglo-normands did not have modern French names.

[J-H]

Guillaum is William?

Whoa.

[Fyraltari]

Guillaum is William?

Whoa.

French is really weird when it comes to morphing words.

Hlodwig -> Louis.

[Eldan]

English is no better. You somehow turned Andreas (my name) into Andrew.

[Grim Portent]

Amusingly the French changed my name, but it was basically not a change at all. Stewart -> Stuart. Something to do with the Scottish royal family at the time living in exile in France for a bit and the french not being able to make sense of how to pronounce the name the way it's spelt, meant to be something along the lines of the French at the time not having a w in their alphabet.

EDIT: Which reminds me of the glorious mess that is the Welsh written language, which has a few oddities sourced to an early typesetter running out of some of the vowels while prepping a press to print some of the first printed stuff written in the Welsh language.

Funny what a vowel can do to a word.

[J-H]

I enjoy how a Tolkien thread is now on a linguistics tangent, given his academic specialty :)

I really wish we still had the letter thorn (TH). It'd make phonics marginally easier.

[Khedrac]

Guillaum is William?

Whoa.

Actually "Guillaume", but yes, it's a different branch from the Latin "Gulielmus".

[Sapphire Guard]

'Lots of confusingly similar names' is something you will immediately run into nearly any time you start looking into history, so it works for me.

[Corvus]

The Anglo-Saxons had the best names.

Speaking of music, Blind Guardian did a Silmarillion based album as well.

[PontificatusRex]

In the new-ish Beren and Luthien book, Melian the Maiar is described at one point as a daughter of the Ainur. Perhaps some of the Valar do reproduce, creating Maiar children? Still, it's an early version - Tolkien may have moved away from that as a Maiar origin story.

Well, it is definitely canon Middle Earth history that Maiar can have children, given that Luthien is Melian's daughter. I always had the impression that the Maiar were not a completely different "species" than the Ainur, as it were, but just less powerful versions of the same basic type of entity. So I don't see why the Ainur couldn't have children. But I never got any impression from the Silmarillion that the Maiar were the actual descendants of the Ainur.

As for why the Ainur would have genders and pair off in the first place, well, I doubt it ever occurred to Tolkien that it would be otherwise. Just look around at polytheistic pantheons and that's pretty much what they all do.

[Fyraltari]

Here's another thing -- all the valar are either male or female, some are married and others not. But why? Valar aren't humans. Could they take either form? Why did they choose one or the other and stay with it, rather than changing around? With humans, of course, that takes surgery and hormone treatments but the Valar can take any form they choose at will, and can also walk "unclad", as disembodied spirits.

Because John Tolkien died in 1973 and didn't know jack about gender theory I would guess. Ainulindalë states plainly that the Valar cannot change gender, being male or female is an intrisic part of their identity, just as it is of ours, or so J. R. R. thought.

When they would be clothed, the Valar take some a male form and some a female form, for the diferences in temperament that they always had and expressed themselves in that choice did no more come from their will than, among ourselves, are males and females determined by their clothes even though they known by them.

So why must they take male and female form and then be 'married' to one another?

They don't have to. Ulmo and Nienna don't. The others wed because they are in love with each other. Simple as.

I don't know if we've got quite that far in the story yet

Nope. It's in about two pages.

but Tulkas is mentioned as coming to Middle Earth and then becoming espoused. This implied he was genderless as an Ainur but took male form when he came to Middle Earth, as if Male/Female is something they need to be embodied as Valar in middle earth but is meaningless to the Ainur outside the world. Could they leave the world and put it aside?

Tulkas and Nessa marriying each other in Eä implies nothing more than the two of them not being married to each other before. Why would it? Tulkas was always male.

Also, how did Tulkas meet his bride? Is there a singles bar in Valinor for gods? Are there love triangles and gossip and first dates and all the rest of it?

While that's a funny thought, the most likely story is that they vaguely knew each other in the Halls of Illuvatar but only really bonded while shaping Arda.

Spoiler: Chapter 4 of Quenta Silmarillion

Show

Well, it is definitely canon Middle Earth history that Maiar can have children, given that Luthien is Melian's daughter.

I always had the impression that the Maiar were not a completely different "species" than the Ainur, as it were, but just less powerful versions of the same basic type of entity. So I don't see why the Ainur couldn't have children. But I never got any impression from the Silmarillion that the Maiar were the actual descendants of the Ainur.

The Maiar and Valar are both Ainur. The Valar (meaning "The Powers) are simply the 15 most powerful while the rest are lumped together as Maiar.

In the early versions of the mythos the Ainur could have children, most notably Eonwë was Manwë's and Varda's son rather than just Manwë's herald while Gothmog was Melko's. Tolkien then changed his mind about it and made the Ainur incapable of reproduction.

Spoiler: QS chapter 4

Show

Luthien is the only exception, and that is likely because Melian is the only Ainu to ever love a Child of Illuvatar.

As for why the Ainur would have genders and pair off in the first place, well, I doubt it ever occurred to Tolkien that it would be otherwise. Just look around at polytheistic pantheons and that's pretty much what they all do.

Sounds about right.
Although, many mythologies have the odd non-binary god.

[pendell]

FWIW the cast of the trilogy got together to put together a rap on the Colbert late show. Pretty funny, especially Andy Serkis playing the flute and speaking -- is that Gaelic?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

As for why the Ainur would have genders and pair off in the first place, well, I doubt it ever occurred to Tolkien that it would be otherwise. Just look around at polytheistic pantheons and that's pretty much what they all do.

Yeah but most polytheistic pantheons have gods who are the children of other gods, which broadly speaking is the point of the excercise. The Ainur never have any children who are also Ainur, nor were any of them created as the children of others the way some were made as siblings of others, so their marriages are from a mythological and cultural standpoint kind of pointless.

[Thrudd]

Yeah but most polytheistic pantheons have gods who are the children of other gods, which broadly speaking is the point of the excercise. The Ainur never have any children who are also Ainur, nor were any of them created as the children of others the way some were made as siblings of others, so their marriages are from a mythological and cultural standpoint kind of pointless.

I think it's because they're a combination of old gods and angels, which don't breed and were created all at once to serve the monotheist god. Tolkien wanted to acknowledge polytheistic pantheons while preserving the primacy of his monotheist cosmology.

[PontificatusRex]

I think it's because they're a combination of old gods and angels, which don't breed and were created all at once to serve the monotheist god. Tolkien wanted to acknowledge polytheistic pantheons while preserving the primacy of his monotheist cosmology.

Because when you build your own universe, you can have your cake AND eat it!

[Scarlet Knight]

FWIW the cast of the trilogy got together to put together a rap on the Colbert late show. Pretty funny, especially Andy Serkis playing the flute and speaking -- is that Gaelic?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Saw the show and that rap was FAR FREAKIN' OUT! Hugo Weaving rapping in Quenya! Sean Austin with a potato medallion! Frodo Motha F%#$@&’ Baggins!

[DavidSh]

I hope Mystic Muse can get back to this. The next chapter is "Of the Beginning of Days", the real start of the Quenta Silmarallion.

[Mystic Muse]

I hope Mystic Muse can get back to this. The next chapter is "Of the Beginning of Days", the real start of the Quenta Silmarallion.

Next weekend probably. Last weekend I had food poisoning, and this weekend family is in town.

[Corvus]

Ouch, sorry to hear that. Not the time of year to be down with that.