Mystic Muse reads The Silmarillion.

[factotum]

Next weekend probably. Last weekend I had food poisoning, and this weekend family is in town.

...and you're not sure which is worse? *runs away*

[pendell]

Next weekend probably. Last weekend I had food poisoning, and this weekend family is in town.

I'm sorry to hear that. Is the food poisoning related to family coming over? You're not the heir to a fabulous fortune that would make siblings jealous?

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Next weekend probably. Last weekend I had food poisoning, and this weekend family is in town.

Ouch, sorry to hear that. Not the time of year to be down with that.

Well, whats the best time of year to be down with "family is in town"?

[KorvinStarmast]

Eru is the composer and the conductor of a work. In order to do this, he "hired" musicians to play in his orchestra to bring about his musical piece.

Nice illustration, +5.

The Silmarillion is not a history written by an omniscient author, nor a theological treatise, but the myths of the elves as written down by Bilbo Baggins. Which he learned from songs, tales, and books during his stay in Rivendell. Thus, any story about Iluvatar would have been passed from the Valar to the Noldor, brought back to Middle Earth, and been re-told thousands(!) of times by people who were storytellers, not professional historians.

Or on a meta-level: It is not the worldbuilding guidebook to Middle Earth. It is a book that is found within the world of Middle Earth.

Yes, see also the Book of Westmarch, referenced in the LoTR as in-world primary source material.

Going against the Eru's plan is not a problem.

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Aule does that by creating the dwarves, and the response is 'oh, awesome, but I need the elves to wake up first'

It's the intent to destroy or damage that causes the issue.

Beat me to it.

It wouldn't be the Silmarillion if there wasn't music to go with some of the characters. The group Oonagh wrote themes for at least some of them.

Also, how did Tulkas meet his bride? Is there a singles bar in Valinor for gods? Are there love triangles and gossip and first dates and all the rest of it?

If we borrow an idea from the Ancient Greek traditions/legendarium, maybe he came across his bride whilst she was bathing under a small waterfall, and struck by her beauty and the magic of the song she was singing fell head over heals into the stream, and thence into love. Maybe, on the other hand, she spotted him first and enchanted him with a beautiful song (music is power) such that he fell in love ... big tough Tulkas was, down inside, a softy. (She calls him "ya big lug" when they are in private).

[hamishspence]

If we borrow an idea from the Ancient Greek traditions/legendarium, maybe he came across his bride whilst she was bathing under a small waterfall, and struck by her beauty and the magic of the song she was singing fell head over heals into the stream, and thence into love.

Sounds like Bombadil and Goldberry.

[PontificatusRex]

If we borrow an idea from the Ancient Greek traditions/legendarium, maybe he came across his bride whilst she was bathing under a small waterfall, and struck by her beauty and the magic of the song she was singing fell head over heals into the stream, and thence into love. Maybe, on the other hand, she spotted him first and enchanted him with a beautiful song (music is power) such that he fell in love ... big tough Tulkas was, down inside, a softy. (She calls him "ya big lug" when they are in private).

C'mon, it's Tulkas. They met at the gym.

[KorvinStarmast]

C'mon, it's Tulkas. They met at the gym.

Wait, is that where this 'guy at the gym' nonsense started?

[pendell]

:reads the past few posts:

Please, Mystic Muse, hurry back before the fanfiction in the thread becomes exotic.

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

:reads the past few posts:

Please, Mystic Muse, hurry back before the fanfiction in the thread becomes exotic.

Tongue-in-cheek ,

Brian P.

It'll be fine as long as nobody brings up Angbang.




Dammit!

[Aeson]

Don't worry; if things get too wild, I'm sure the moderators will be happy to direct the worst offenders to Angbanned.

[Grim Portent]

The mention of Angband, even in a joking fashion, actually prompted me to look up if there was a translation for it's name.

Iron Prison/Hell in Sindarin. Think I'd heard that translation a few years ago and forgotten about it.

Angmar, the similarly named northern kingdom of evil beings ruled by the Witch King during the 3rd age, translates to Iron Home.

Which brings me to wonder what the inhabitants of Angmar called it. I can't imagine they spoke Sindarin most of the time, and I would assume the Witch King named it in Black Speech, but Tolkien created so little of that language.

[Wintermoot]

Which brings me to wonder what the inhabitants of Angmar called it.

Detroit 12345678

[Fyraltari]

The mention of Angband, even in a joking fashion, actually prompted me to look up if there was a translation for it's name.

Iron Prison/Hell in Sindarin. Think I'd heard that translation a few years ago and forgotten about it.

Angmar, the similarly named northern kingdom of evil beings ruled by the Witch King during the 3rd age, translates to Iron Home.

Which brings me to wonder what the inhabitants of Angmar called it. I can't imagine they spoke Sindarin most of the time, and I would assume the Witch King named it in Black Speech, but Tolkien created so little of that language.

The kingdom of Aaaaaaaaaargh.

Edit: More seriously, very few people actually speak Black Speech, even if it strongly influenced many Orcish tongues. It failed to become the universal tongue it was designed for and only Sauron's closest collaborators (and the Olog-Hai, weirdly) speak it. Conlangs, heh?

I figure the actual name of the kingdom would be "Iron Home" in whatever language the Men and Orcs living there spoke.

[Grim Portent]

The kingdom of Aaaaaaaaaargh.

Edit: More seriously, very few people actually speak Black Speech, even if it strongly influenced many Orcish tongues. It failed to become the universal tongue it was designed for and only Sauron's closest collaborators (and the Olog-Hai, weirdly) speak it. Conlangs, heh?

I figure the actual name of the kingdom would be "Iron Home" in whatever language the Men and Orcs living there spoke.

My thought process is that the kingdom's official name was probably made up by the Witch King himself rather than the orcs, men or trolls of the North, and the Nazgul almost certainly knew the Black Speech. His subjects would have then just called it whatever name the Witch King came up with.


Though on further thought the name for Barad-Dur (Sindarin) is Lugburz in Black Speech, which both mean Dark Tower, so I think Tolkien just never thought about what kind of names the Dark Lord and his servants would actually use for themselves and their realms and just used popped the Sindarin name. After all basically everything evil in the setting is named in Quenya, Sindarin or Adunaic, which is to say from the elven and numenorian perspective. IIRC Sauron doesn't even have a name in Black Speech, or even a real name at all unless we count the name he had in Valinor, all his names are given by his enemies or assumed by him temporarily to ingratiate himself to others.

[factotum]

IIRC Sauron doesn't even have a name in Black Speech, or even a real name at all unless we count the name he had in Valinor, all his names are given by his enemies or assumed by him temporarily to ingratiate himself to others.

I would assume he refers to himself either by his Valinorean name or by some cognate of it in Black Speech. I doubt he uses Sauron or Gorthaur the Cruel or whatever.

[Mystic Muse]

Assuming I don't get stuck setting up Windows Mail with a 75-year old bigot or something similar again, I will update tonight.

Needed the weekend to decompress from.holidays.

[pendell]

Assuming I don't get stuck setting up Windows Mail with a 75-year old bigot or something similar again, I will update tonight.

Needed the weekend to decompress from.holidays.

Ugh, my sympathies. Was this person a family member, and you were pressed into the tech support role for the fam, or someone at work?

Either way, yeah, I can see this was no fun for you :(.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

Detroit 12345678

Laughed, I did. (My brother lived in Detroit for a while; I prefer Chicago, when it comes to big cities in the MidWest).

[Fyraltari]

My thought process is that the kingdom's official name was probably made up by the Witch King himself rather than the orcs, men or trolls of the North, and the Nazgul almost certainly knew the Black Speech. His subjects would have then just called it whatever name the Witch King came up with.

I guess that makes sense. However, If I remember correctly, the Free People didn't realize that thr Witch-King of Angmar and the Black Captain of the Nazgûl were one and the same until the final days of the kingdom and I feel like using a Black Speech name would habe been an obvious giveaway.

None of this is in The Silmarillion, Mystic, which is why I didn't put it in a spoiler box.


Wait, maybe tbey called the kingdom "Carn Dûm", it's the name of the capital, and I don't think it's Sindarin.

Though on further thought the name for Barad-Dur (Sindarin) is Lugburz in Black Speech, which both mean Dark Tower, so I think Tolkien just never thought about what kind of names the Dark Lord and his servants would actually use for themselves and their realms and just used popped the Sindarin name.

Heh, many names in Middle-Earth are just translations of the name in another language. Like, "Rivendell" is just a translation of "Imladris" when, logically, the Men should probably be calling it "Himadri" or something.

After all basically everything evil in the setting is named in Quenya, Sindarin or Adunaic, which is to say from the elven and numenorian perspective. IIRC Sauron doesn't even have a name in Black Speech, or even a real name at all unless we count the name he had in Valinor, all his names are given by his enemies or assumed by him temporarily to ingratiate himself to others.

We do know the name Sauron uses among his forces, though.

Spoiler: Suprise!

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It's Melkor.

[Grim Portent]

I guess that makes sense. However, If I remember correctly, the Free People didn't realize that thr Witch-King of Angmar and the Black Captain of the Nazgûl were one and the same until the final days of the kingdom and I feel like using a Black Speech name would habe been an obvious giveaway.

None of this is in The Silmarillion, Mystic, which is why I didn't put it in a spoiler box.


Wait, maybe tbey called the kingdom "Carn Dûm", it's the name of the capital, and I don't think it's Sindarin.



Heh, many names in Middle-Earth are just translations of the name in another language. Like, "Rivendell" is just a translation of "Imladris" when, logically, the Men should probably be calling it "Himadri" or something.

Carn Dum doesn't seem to mean anything, but there's a theory that Carn is derived from the Sindarim word for red/crimson, and that Dum is dwarven for fortress/citadel, as seen in Khazad-Dum, which would make it the Red/Crimson Fortress/Citadel.

We do know the name Sauron uses among his forces, though.

Spoiler: Suprise!

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It's Melkor.

Do we know that? I don't recall it ever being mentioned that he went by that name.

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I do know he became the high priest of Melkor during his time on Numenor after 'corrupting' the Numenoreans into worshipping the original dark lord before Illuvatar killed them all and sank their island into the sea. His own name at the time was Tar-Mairon

[Fyraltari]

Carn Dum doesn't seem to mean anything, but there's a theory that Carn is derived from the Sindarim word for red/crimson, and that Dum is dwarven for fortress/citadel, as seen in Khazad-Dum, which would make it the Red/Crimson Fortress/Citadel.

You know, I can see some tribes of Men from the Misty mountains speaking a mix of elvish and dwarfish.

Do we know that? I don't recall it ever being mentioned that he went by that name.

It's in one of the letters (183 to be precise).

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It says in late Third Age, he claimed to be Morgoth back from exile. It checks out with TLotR, where Aragorn says Sauron doesn't use that name (his Mouth does, but that may be just to speed the discussion along) and one region of Mordor is called Udun, which is Sindarin for Utumno, Morgoth's old fortress

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I do know he became the high priest of Melkor during his time on Numenor after 'corrupting' the Numenoreans into worshipping the original dark lord before Illuvatar killed them all and sank their island into the sea. His own name at the time was Tar-Mairon

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Apparently one of the HoME book I don't have says he mostly went by Zigur, though (makes sense, since Elvish names and Ar-Pharazon don't really go along well).

[hamishspence]

Grishnákh, a fairly important Orc captain, uses "The Great Eye".

‘You have spoken more than enough, Uglúk,’ sneered the evil voice. ‘I wonder how they would like it in Lugbúrz. They might think that Uglúk’s shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head. They might ask where his strange ideas came from. Did they come from Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnákh their trusted messenger; and I Grishnákh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him. Swine, is it? How do you folk like being called swine by the muck-rakers of a dirty little wizard? It’s orc-flesh they eat, I’ll warrant.’

While a point is made of how Sauron's forces aren't permitted to use the name Sauron amongst themselves:

‘I have not seen these tokens before,’ said Aragorn. ‘What do they mean?’
‘S is for Sauron,’ said Gimli. ‘That is easy to read.’
‘Nay!’ said Legolas. ‘Sauron does not use the elf-runes.’
‘Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,’ said Aragorn. ‘And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service of Barad-dúr use the sign of the Red Eye.’

his emissaries always seem to use the name when parlaying with the other side:

‘That was nigh on thirty years ago. For a while we had news and it seemed good: messages reported that Moria had been entered and a great work begun there. Then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since.
‘Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria – from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. “For Sauron knows,” said he, “that one of these was known to you on a time.”

‘I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!’ he cried.
‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.’
‘So!’ said the Messenger. ‘Then thou art the spokesman, old greybeard? Have we not heard of thee at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distance? But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great. I have tokens that I was bidden to show to thee – to thee in especial, if thou shouldst dare to come.’

Presumably it's "The Great Eye" amongst themselves, and "Sauron the Great" when talking to foes.

[Fyraltari]

Grishnákh, a fairly important Orc captain, uses "The Great Eye".

But Grishnâk isn't saying that Sauron is on Saruman, he is saying that Sauron has his eye on Saruman. The Great Eye is Sauron's eye (his symbol, and the way he appears in telepathic communications and.visions, not PJ's spotlight of doom) not Sauron's name.

[hamishspence]

I figured that it's also a title, rather than Grishnákh shortening the phrase "The Great One's eye is on him" - because Eye is capitalised as well as Great.

I'm not sure if there's any other examples of orcs talking about Sauron amongst themselves which use anything that might qualify as a title, but Shagrat and Gorbag consistently use Him and He, capitalised. As well as "The Eye".

'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? – if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
'Yes,' said Gorbag. 'But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay,' his voice sank almost to a whisper, 'ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too. But see here: when were you ordered out?'

...

'I have my orders. And it's more than my belly's worth, or yours, to break 'em. Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself. That's plain enough, and that's what I'm going to do.'

'See here – our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago, that I know. But my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day, nor any message sent to Lugbúrz either: owing to the Great Signal going up, and the High Nazgûl going off to the war, and all that. And then they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
'The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,' said Shagrat. 'Big things going on away west, they say.'

[Fyraltari]

I figured that it's also a title, rather than Grishnákh shortening the phrase "The Great One's eye is on him" - because Eye is capitalised as well as Great.

I'm not sure if there's any other examples of orcs talking about Sauron amongst themselves which use anything that might qualify as a title, but Shagrat and Gorbag consistently use Him and He, capitalised. As well as "The Eye".

But again, the use of "The Eye" is in the context of Sauron watching something. They couldn't get Lugburz's (i.e. Sauron's) attention because The Eye was busy elsewhere (Sauron was focusing on more important matters). The Eye is Sauron's symbol and the heart of his power (he is always watching his servitors and they can most likely feel his influence on their minds), so it deserves being capitalized, but it isn't his name. They wouldn't say "I've got my orders from The Eye" or "The Eye came in person today", The Eye is the personnification of Sauron's gaze and attention, not the whole of the creature.

Besides, I don't think names have the same importance for Sauron (and the Ainur in general) as for us. He's an immortal from before the world existed, he doesn't define himself with a word, he knows who he is, names are just descriptors others use to refer to him. Among the Elves he called hismelf "Lord of Gifts" because that was what he wanted them to think of him as.

So, what would he want the orcs to think of him as? "Master" or "Lord" would be my guess, or as Shagrat puts it informally "The Biggest Boss".

[Grim Portent]

It's in one of the letters (183 to be precise).

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It says in late Third Age, he claimed to be Morgoth back from exile. It checks out with TLotR, where Aragorn says Sauron doesn't use that name (his Mouth does, but that may be just to speed the discussion along) and one region of Mordor is called Udun, which is Sindarin for Utumno, Morgoth's old fortress

Strange, I wonder why he bothered, no one alive is likely to care other than a handful of elves and maiar. Well himself too I suppose.

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Though I think, having looked up the letter in question now, that it might have been a way to proclaim himself as a messiah of sorts, given his pushing Morgoth as a figure to worship.

[pendell]

My impression is that no one of Sauron's servants can use his right name when talking to other servants. The rules are different when engaging in diplomacy with other people not under his rule, but among the human nations and among the orcs who serve him the Great Eye is worshipped as a god, with all the reverence that entails.

It does seem rather strange that Sauron would be so leary of giving his name out -- in old beliefs, knowing a person's true name gave one magical power over that person. That's why kings would often give new vassals new names, to signify their assumption of authority over the subject. But Sauron is a Maia. Anyone trying to summon him using his name or doing anything else of the kind would, I suspect, be in for a very nasty surprise which they would remember for the rest of their short lives. Unless they were born to the Houses of Lamentation, where they would have a great deal longer to consider their folly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Strange, I wonder why he bothered, no one alive is likely to care other than a handful of elves and maiar. Well himself too I suppose.

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Though I think, having looked up the letter in question now, that it might have been a way to proclaim himself as a messiah of sorts, given his pushing Morgoth as a figure to worship.

Bolg from the Hobbit was at least one hundred. And I imagine the descendants of the servants of Morgoth still had legends about him.

My impression is that no one of Sauron's servants can use his right name when talking to other servants. The rules are different when engaging in diplomacy with other people not under his rule, but among the human nations and among the orcs who serve him the Great Eye is worshipped as a god, with all the reverence that entails.

It does seem rather strange that Sauron would be so leary of giving his name out -- in old beliefs, knowing a person's true name gave one magical power over that person. That's why kings would often give new vassals new names, to signify their assumption of authority over the subject. But Sauron is a Maia. Anyone trying to summon him using his name or doing anything else of the kind would, I suspect, be in for a very nasty surprise which they would remember for the rest of their short lives. Unless they were born to the Houses of Lamentation, where they would have a great deal longer to consider their folly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Spoiler: Just in case

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But Sauron isn't his "true" name. It's Quenya for "abomination". It's an insult. He had another name before, "Mairon" (although that is Quenya, too and given Sauron was never on friendly terms with Elves, it's most likely a translation of his actual, Valarin, name).

[pendell]

And for awhile he called himself "Annatar" which is "Lord of Gifts". That was when he was in Eregion and collaborating with the elves in the craft of ring-making. I guess that explains why you've got to review open source pull requests with such care -- someone sneaks in a back door password which allows subversion of the entire system, as Sauron did.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

Bolg from the Hobbit was at least one hundred. And I imagine the descendants of the servants of Morgoth still had legends about him.

We're talking about a very long time frame. Three and a half thousand years to be specific.

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I doubt any orcs from Morgoth's time still lived, their societies were portrayed as consistently violent and unpleasant, indeed several of the named orcs we meet die in petty squabbles with other orcs. The fallen maiar are basically all gone, the werewolves and vampires having been driven away or vanquished beyond their ability to reincorporate, the balrogs slain, the few remaining dragons dwell in the far flung lands of the north, the cultures of men that allied with Morgoth are all extinct or such distant relatives that the past association is meaningless.

The black numenorean's descendents may still worship Morgoth, but I don't think claiming to be him would actually boost Sauron's prestige all that much compared to being Tar-Mairon, who was high priest and second in command of Morgoth, and brought his worship to the Numenorians. Of course we're talking about basically just the kingdom of Umbar during the 3rd age, as I recall they're the only confirmed place the Numenorean's loyal to Morgoth managed to establish themselves after the destruction of their home.

I get the impression Tolkien basically intended it as a deluded claim to faded glory and gradual increase in megalomania on Sauron's part. Something of a parallel to Morgoth's own journey from wanting to create, to wanting to rule, to wanting to destroy everything.

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But Sauron isn't his "true" name. It's Quenya for "abomination". It's an insult. He had another name before, "Mairon" (although that is Quenya, too and given Sauron was never on friendly terms with Elves, it's most likely a translation of his actual, Valarin, name).

Might be worth spoilering the mention of Eyeball McGee's original name for Mystic Muse's benefit, as it hasn't yet come up in the book IIRC.