Mystic Muse reads The Silmarillion.

[Fyraltari]

We're talking about a very long time frame. Three and a half thousand years to be specific.

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I doubt any orcs from Morgoth's time still lived, their societies were portrayed as consistently violent and unpleasant, indeed several of the named orcs we meet die in petty squabbles with other orcs. The fallen maiar are basically all gone, the werewolves and vampires having been driven away or vanquished beyond their ability to reincorporate, the balrogs slain, the few remaining dragons dwell in the far flung lands of the north, the cultures of men that allied with Morgoth are all extinct or such distant relatives that the past association is meaningless.

The black numenorean's descendents may still worship Morgoth, but I don't think claiming to be him would actually boost Sauron's prestige all that much compared to being Tar-Mairon, who was high priest and second in command of Morgoth, and brought his worship to the Numenorians. Of course we're talking about basically just the kingdom of Umbar during the 3rd age, as I recall they're the only confirmed place the Numenorean's loyal to Morgoth managed to establish themselves after the destruction of their home.

I get the impression Tolkien basically intended it as a deluded claim to faded glory and gradual increase in megalomania on Sauron's part. Something of a parallel to Morgoth's own journey from wanting to create, to wanting to rule, to wanting to destroy everything.

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That's a lot of assumptions about cultures and races going extinct, that I don't think are particularly supported by the text. We know that after Morgoth's fall, many of his mortal servants went on to subjugate various kingdoms of Men. We're never told those went away. In fact I think it's implied there's a continuity with the "evil Men" Tar-Aldarion helped Gil-Galad fortify against (who Aldarion did not know were straight-up in service to Sauron).

I think the memory of Morgoth is still alive by the Third Age. I mean, the great battering ram at the battle of Pelennor Fields was named after Morgoth's own hammer. Hell, if memory serves, even the Hobbits have some idea of who he is.

Might be worth spoilering the mention of Eyeball McGee's original name for Mystic Muse's benefit, as it hasn't yet come up in the book IIRC.

It's not like it as any importance, but, you are right, better err on the side of safety.

[Grim Portent]

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That's a lot of assumptions about cultures and races going extinct, that I don't think are particularly supported by the text. We know that after Morgoth's fall, many of his mortal servants went on to subjugate various kingdoms of Men. We're never told those went away. In fact I think it's implied there's a continuity with the "evil Men" Tar-Aldarion helped Gil-Galad fortify against (who Aldarion did not know were straight-up in service to Sauron).

I think the memory of Morgoth is still alive by the Third Age. I mean, the great battering ram at the battle of Pelennor Fields was named after Morgoth's own hammer. Hell, if memory serves, even the Hobbits have some idea of who he is.

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My point is that the cultures have long since changed and don't necessarily have much continuity with their ancestors from the War of Wrath. The Easterlings, Haradrim and Corsairs are all distantly related to Morgoth's allies, be they men of twilight or of darkness, but they've divided, merged, divided again and so forth so much that the direct relation isn't really significant. Kind of like how a modern Italian has nothing much in common with an ancient Roman, let alone the various cultures living in Italy in 1500 BC, or the various cultures living in other places that would eventually contribute to the creation of modern Italians.

This is mitigated somewhat by the presence of sorcerer kings and the ancient lineages of men who live longer, but once Morgoth was banished to the Void and Sauron and the other fallen maiar weren't present there would have been little purpose to revering the Dark Lord anymore and no one in a position to stop any remaining respect or worship from drifting to other figures.

Roughly put my argument is that the Haradrim and Easterlings are likely indifferent about or unaware that their ancestors sided with Morgoth, except in as much as it relates to their own longstanding conflicts with the men of the West. It's a very very long time ago for anyone who isn't an elf, dwarf or numenorian. Not that it's a short time for them either.

[KorvinStarmast]

Roughly put my argument is that the Haradrim and Easterlings are likely indifferent about or unaware that their ancestors sided with Morgoth, except in as much as it relates to their own longstanding conflicts with the men of the West. It's a very, very long time ago for anyone who isn't an elf, dwarf or Numenorian. Not that it's a short time for them either.

Nailed it in one. In Middle Earth, the Third Age alone takes us, in time, from the Bronze Age collapse to (roughly) last week in actual Earth time.
That's a lot of cultural shift.

[Grim Portent]

Nailed it in one. In Middle Earth, the Third Age alone takes us, in time, from the Bronze Age collapse to (roughly) last week in actual Earth time.
That's a lot of cultural shift.

It's also a remarkably slow rate of technological development.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, I'm not really buying the whole cultural shift argument. The Shire stayed basically the same for 1,600 years. Even if the actual nations of the time are long gone and buried, the proposition that the Men of the East and South still have myths and legends about

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the Great Lord who ruled the world with his dragons, demons and legions of orcs

is hardly absurd.

[Grim Portent]

Yeah, I'm not really buying the whole cultural shift argument. The Shire stayed basically the same for 1,600 years. Even if the actual nations of the time are long gone and buried, the proposition that the Men of the East and South still have myths and legends about

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the Great Lord who ruled the world with his dragons, demons and legions of orcs

is hardly absurd.

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And yet if someone showed up on my doorstep claiming to be one of the gods of my ancestors who laid waste to armies and commanded legions of giants with animal heads I wouldn't be particularly inclined to care regardless of what my ancestors thought of him, even if he was twenty feet tall and matched the physical description. I only even know they believed in the god I have in mind, or something like him at least, because the cultural shifts didn't quite manage to wipe out that mythology in just a tad more than a mere thousand years. What is left still only fills about two paragraphs of text.

Fundamentally Sauron doesn't need to pretend to be someone else to try and draw on street cred that's three millenia out of date, he has plenty of his own by the third age. The Haradrim, Easterlings and Umbarans (Umbarians? Umbarites? I don't actually think they ever got referred to in plural other than as Corsairs.) have more reason to side with a resurgent Sauron than with the return of a guy who's been irrelevent for over three thousand years.

I seriously think that if Sauron popped up and said 'I am Morgoth returned!' to his eventual allies most members of the races of wicked men, even among their most learned men and women, would have gone 'Who?' or at best 'Isn't that the bloke who got beaten ages ago?' or 'Oh, that chap who rode dragons or something,' whereas his own deeds would still ring loud in their ears as he was an enemy of their enemies, not the enemies of their ancestors to the umpteenth generation.

As for the Shire staying the same, eh nothing about the Shire makes sense, it's a fairytale version of the English countryside but with all the many horrible bits that both fairytales and history actually feature missing. Everything bad in it that goes beyond petty bickering comes from the outside, be it goblins, or men or industrialisation. Even their technology and culture is weird, it's basically a society from the 1800s but without any weapons or anything mechanical plopped down into a world that is otherwise still in the chainmail and swords era of technology. Like a Dickens story set in the countryside but with all the social commentary stripped out. It's actually just plain weird now that I think more deeply about it.

[Fyraltari]

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And yet if someone showed up on my doorstep claiming to be one of the gods of my ancestors who laid waste to armies and commanded legions of giants with animal heads I wouldn't be particularly inclined to care regardless of what my ancestors thought of him, even if he was twenty feet tall and matched the physical description. I only even know they believed in the god I have in mind, or something like him at least, because the cultural shifts didn't quite manage to wipe out that mythology in just a tad more than a mere thousand years. What is left still only fills about two paragraphs of text.

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And if a twenty feet tall guy wreathed in fire came up to you and said he was the guy, you personally believed created the world in the Ancient Days, now come back to drive away the devils who usurped his throne? Again you assume that the people of far Eastern and southern Middle-earth were free of the yoke of the Dark Lords since the beginning of the Second Age when we're told no effort was ever made by the elves or their allies in that direction and Sauron regularly disappeared there for long stretches of time. Why would the cult of Morgoth go away?

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Fundamentally Sauron doesn't need to pretend to be someone else to try and draw on street cred that's three millenia out of date, he has plenty of his own by the third age. The Haradrim, Easterlings and Umbarans (Umbarians? Umbarites? I don't actually think they ever got referred to in plural other than as Corsairs.) have more reason to side with a resurgent Sauron than with the return of a guy who's been irrelevent for over three thousand years.

Also, I guess Umbarrhim?

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I seriously think that if Sauron popped up and said 'I am Morgoth returned!' to his eventual allies most members of the races of wicked men, even among their most learned men and women, would have gone 'Who?' or at best 'Isn't that the bloke who got beaten ages ago?' or 'Oh, that chap who rode dragons or something,' whereas his own deeds would still ring loud in their ears as he was an enemy of their enemies, not the enemies of their ancestors to the umpteenth generation.

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By the time of The Lord of the Ring, the War of the Last Alliance, which was the last time Sauron made himself publically known, was three thousand years old, I'm not sure why exactly you think it's more topical than the War of Wrath.

As for the Shire staying the same, eh nothing about the Shire makes sense, it's a fairytale version of the English countryside but with all the many horrible bits that both fairytales and history actually feature missing. Everything bad in it that goes beyond petty bickering comes from the outside, be it goblins, or men or industrialisation. Even their technology and culture is weird, it's basically a society from the 1800s but without any weapons or anything mechanical plopped down into a world that is otherwise still in the chainmail and swords era of technology. Like a Dickens story set in the countryside but with all the social commentary stripped out. It's actually just plain weird now that I think more deeply about it.

The Shire is not uniquely weird. Everybody is frozen technologically and culturally. Rohan lasted five hundred years without ever needed to change the organisation of their army, the Stewards of Gondor still don't call themselves kings after a thousand years, the dwarves are comfortable with fireworks but nobody thought of guns yet. The Dùnedain used to have metal ship that fired darts across the ocean and circumnavigated the world but the know-how is lost. Social, cultural and technological changes in Middle-Earth are bordering on inexistant.

[Corvus]

Fantasy loves it's mediaeval stagnation. Language, culture, food, clothes, even borders - pop back a thousand years and little changes.

[pendell]

As far as bad guys returning, Rise of the Witch King had a good take on it. The first mission of the game requires the player to take the part of the witch king and found Angmar. He does this by recruiting trolls, orcs to basically steam roll the renegade Numenoreans living in the land. These aren't nice people. They enslave trolls and do other cruel things. But they are absolutely awed when someone really evil and really, really powerful comes among them. The witch-king informs that "either their lives or their wills are forfeit". It doesn't take them long to make the correct choice; these aren't men of principle serving the Valar. They are inclined to evil already, and they don't take much cowing to join up with a winner who promises them that they will be "forged anew, into a blade worthy of the iron crown."

Multiply that in kingdoms to the north and the east and the south, and that is Middle-Earth everywhere outside of the small, faithful kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. The Enemy rules all the human world. That's why he created the Nazgul in the first place.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

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And if a twenty feet tall guy wreathed in fire came up to you and said he was the guy, you personally believed created the world in the Ancient Days, now come back to drive away the devils who usurped his throne? Again you assume that the people of far Eastern and southern Middle-earth were free of the yoke of the Dark Lords since the beginning of the Second Age when we're told no effort was ever made by the elves or their allies in that direction and Sauron regularly disappeared there for long stretches of time. Why would the cult of Morgoth go away?

Why do statues crumble to dust? Why do ruins become ruins? People change, they forget, they die, they move. People desecrate their own heritage sites in order to build new buildings out of the rubble. I would generally question why anything lasts for more than a thousand years or so, especially things as transient as faith, loyalty and fear in a period of migrations and plagues and wars and so many things that would easily break the continuity of their culture.

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To me the idea that the men of the east would even know the name Morgoth or Melkor, or any recognisable derivation of them, after so long is weird. After that length of time I would expect them to have gone through multiple entire languages, two or three religions per major culture group and a few near extinction events. Which I suppose can be chalked up to the general stagnation of the setting and that Tolkien never really put much thought into them. The Edain got all the attention.

On another note, I do find it weird that the Valar never bothered to check out the East during any of the periods they had Morgoth contained, or after his banishment to the Void. A huge swathe of the world filled with people who have lived their lives in metaphysical darkness,likely hunted by fallen maiar and spirits of the darkness, and the only people who even bother to go check on them are two of the Istari ages later? I can't help but feel someone failed in their duty towards the men of the east.

That's a good point, but it feels... humble in a weird way to me. Like Sauron admitting he's not good enough to rule the world, he needs to be Morgoth. I understand that Tolkien's intent was that it was arrogance, a denial of his waning and so forth, but it doesn't feel like something that fits in with the rest of what Sauron does.

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It doesn't feel like something the guy who thought that turning into a wolf for a fight would make him the 'mightiest of all werewolves' mentioned in a prophecy would do.

Also, I guess Umbarrhim?

That does sound consistent with a lot of other human groups in the setting. Though it does occur to me there's two races of men referred to as Men of Bree/Dale in addition to the Corsairs of Umbar, so other than the use of Corsairs as the default term it's not actually all that weird for the Men of the Wests naming conventions. Though what they would have called themselves is still a question with no answer.

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By the time of The Lord of the Ring, the War of the Last Alliance, which was the last time Sauron made himself publically known, was three thousand years old, I'm not sure why exactly you think it's more topical than the War of Wrath.

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It has the benefit of being against the factions they'd actually be fighting for one, most notably Gondor. Most of the War of Wrath took place on a landmass that wound up sinking into the sea, against civilisations that are largely extinct, and before the world literally got changed from flat to round in the 2nd age. I'm not sure many of the Easterlings or Haradrim would even be familiar with the fact Beleriand had once existed, all that's left of it is a chunk of land on the northwest coast of Middle Earth.

The Shire is not uniquely weird. Everybody is frozen technologically and culturally. Rohan lasted five hundred years without ever needed to change the organisation of their army, the Stewards of Gondor still don't call themselves kings after a thousand years, the dwarves are comfortable with fireworks but nobody thought of guns yet. The Dùnedain used to have metal ship that fired darts across the ocean and circumnavigated the world but the know-how is lost. Social, cultural and technological changes in Middle-Earth are bordering on inexistant.

The stagnation isn't the weird part, though it is odd that none of the human kingdoms ever decided to take the land from the halflings, it's that they're frozen in a different time period to everyone else and their only real flaw as a society is complacency. Most of the setting is in a sort of early-medieval period, with smatterings of magical stuff and a few anachronisms here and there. the Shire always gives off really strong 1800s English countryside vibes. It makes sense that it does from a meta-perspective, it's presumably based on the countryside as Tolkien nominally knew it with the rough bits filed off and a lot of what he would have been exposed to as a child and a young man would have been stuff from the 1800s, but now that I've noticed it it feels so weird.

Bilbo has a clock in the Hobbit, an honest to goodness clock on the mantelpiece, and his little waistcoat with brass buttons that got lost when he squeezed through the door to escape the goblin tunnels. It's so weird to imagine him in the same time period that the men of Rohan, not all that far away, were still wearing chainmail and helmets that were old fashioned by the 1200s, and people were hunting the Wood Wose as if they were animals and so on. How did I never notice how weird this was before? I had two copies of the Hobbit as a child, one illustrated with beautiful artwork, and it never struck me as weird how the Shire of all places was the most modern place in the story despite being a place generally opposed to change, innovation and foreigners.

As far as bad guys returning, Rise of the Witch King had a good take on it. The first mission of the game requires the player to take the part of the witch king and found Angmar. He does this by recruiting trolls, orcs to basically steam roll the renegade Numenoreans living in the land. These aren't nice people. They enslave trolls and do other cruel things. But they are absolutely awed when someone really evil and really, really powerful comes among them. The witch-king informs that "either their lives or their wills are forfeit". It doesn't take them long to make the correct choice; these aren't men of principle serving the Valar. They are inclined to evil already, and they don't take much cowing to join up with a winner who promises them that they will be "forged anew, into a blade worthy of the iron crown."

Multiply that in kingdoms to the north and the east and the south, and that is Middle-Earth everywhere outside of the small, faithful kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. The Enemy rules all the human world. That's why he created the Nazgul in the first place.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I have many fond memories of that game, in particular Rogash the troll king, but I'm not sure the portrayal of various things in it squares up very well with canon material. The presence of Black Numenorians for one thing. I think the more reasonable assumption is that the Witch King showed up, the orcs and trolls fell in line to save their own skins, as they tend to when a powerful evil creature shows up, and then sought allies among the locals that resented the fact they were ruled by the descendents of Numenor, which many other races of men have good cause to resent, rather than the land being conveniently full of evil men champing at the bit to pledge themselves to an undead monster.

[factotum]

Bilbo has a clock in the Hobbit, an honest to goodness clock on the mantelpiece, and his little waistcoat with brass buttons that got lost when he squeezed through the door to escape the goblin tunnels. It's so weird to imagine him in the same time period that the men of Rohan, not all that far away, were still wearing chainmail and helmets that were old fashioned by the 1200s, and people were hunting the Wood Wose as if they were animals and so on.

I think it's made fairly clear in LOTR that the Rohirrim are considered rather backward compared to their neighbours in Gondor to the south. This also explains why they have a fairly early mediaeval level of tech whereas Gondor is more late mediaeval. Yes, it's odd they spent 500 years living next door to a more advanced society without picking up any hints or tips, but that's how the setting seems to work, with the Shire being the most technologically advanced society anywnere to be found, as far as we can see!

[Seppl]

Regarding techno-cultural development/stagnation: There is a nice reading of the text where you imagine that the elves (and the Valar and Melkor) are actually a highly developed technological society, as seen by primitive human cultures. All that elven magic is just technology: Lembas, a "bread" that tastes fantastic, gives you lot of energy, and is wrapped in strange "leaves" that make it last forever? Chocolate bar. Palantiri, strange "stones" that let you speak to people far away? I am sending this message from one such device. "Ships" made of elven glass, that shine like stars, and can leave the curved world? Titanium Spaceships. I could go on, it works more often than not. Especially if you consider stories like the full version of the Fall of Gondolin, which is just blatant WW1 tank warfare. Though I think that was from the Book of Lost Tales and we only get the super-short version in the Silmarillion.

[Fyraltari]

What does Spoiler means in this thread?

Anything from the book that Muse hasn't read yet? Like Gondor's Kin-Strife is from the Appendixes of The Lord of the Rings so it's okay but

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The Oath of Fëanor

would not be.

Or at least, that's how I understood it. Maybe a mod can lean in.

[Grim Portent]

Regarding techno-cultural development/stagnation: There is a nice reading of the text where you imagine that the elves (and the Valar and Melkor) are actually a highly developed technological society, as seen by primitive human cultures. All that elven magic is just technology: Lembas, a "bread" that tastes fantastic, gives you lot of energy, and is wrapped in strange "leaves" that make it last forever? Chocolate bar. Palantiri, strange "stones" that let you speak to people far away? I am sending this message from one such device. "Ships" made of elven glass, that shine like stars, and can leave the curved world? Titanium Spaceships. I could go on, it works more often than not. Especially if you consider stories like the full version of the Fall of Gondolin, which is just blatant WW1 tank warfare. Though I think that was from the Book of Lost Tales and we only get the super-short version in the Silmarillion.

I think a related topic came up in the Hobbit thread about that, though I might be getting mixed up with an older thread, in which the topic came up that Tolkien had a version of the siege of Minas Tirith in which Ghrond was a group tanks that shot the door open with cannons rather than a sorcerous battering ram. IIRC he decided to go with a battering ram after consulting with a friend who felt tanks were too on the nose as an allegory for some of his own experiences.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's also a remarkably slow rate of technological development.

Check the slow pace of tech development along the Nile for a few thousand years. Saw some interesting work a few years ago on who seems to have invented chariots. The estimate is about 2200-3000 BC on the Eurasian steppes, with the Assyrians falling in on that tech and making good use of it.

Why do statues crumble to dust? Why do ruins become ruins? People change, they forget, they die, they move.

In a related point, Empires fall and they leave behind remains but the level of civilization regresses. (At least it did so in the West, and to some (albeit different) extent along the Nile).

People desecrate their own heritage sites in order to build new buildings out of the rubble.

Yep. Troy being one case of many .

On another note, I do find it weird that the Valar never bothered to check out the East during any of the periods they had Morgoth contained, or after his banishment to the Void. A huge swathe of the world filled with people who have lived their lives in metaphysical darkness, likely hunted by fallen maiar and spirits of the darkness, and the only people who even bother to go check on them are two of the Istari ages later? I can't help but feel someone failed in their duty towards the men of the east.

The Second Children of Illuvitar were not afforded the attention/affection of the First Children of Illuvitar. I wonder if Tolkien was saying something about families there ...

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It has the benefit of being against the factions they'd actually be fighting for one, most notably Gondor. Most of the War of Wrath took place on a landmass that wound up sinking into the sea, against civilisations that are largely extinct, and before the world literally got changed from flat to round in the 2nd age. I'm not sure many of the Easterlings or Haradrim would even be familiar with the fact Beleriand had once existed, all that's left of it is a chunk of land on the northwest coast of Middle Earth.

Atlantis parallel

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, IIRC, and somewhere in the Silmarillion I think that Atalante is a term used

The stagnation isn't the weird part, though it is odd that none of the human kingdoms ever decided to take the land from the halflings ~ it's that they're frozen in a different time period to everyone else and their only real flaw as a society is complacency.

Numerous Tolkien scholars have called out the hobbits as anachronisms.

Bilbo has a clock in the Hobbit, an honest to goodness clock on the mantelpiece, and his little waistcoat with brass buttons that got lost when he squeezed through the door to escape the goblin tunnels.

mentioned by most.

I think it's made fairly clear in LOTR that the Rohirrim are considered rather backward compared to their neighbours in Gondor to the south. This also explains why they have a fairly early mediaeval level of tech whereas Gondor is more late mediaeval. Yes, it's odd they spent 500 years living next door to a more advanced society without picking up any hints or tips, but that's how the setting seems to work, with the Shire being the most technologically advanced society anywhere to be found, as far as we can see!

The dwarves near Esgaroth / The Lonely Mountain, are being an exception, but of course destroyed by Smaug.

Tolkien's Third Age is a curious version of "dying earth" as a narrative vehicle, but "previous ages were greater and had wondrous inventions now lost to us" is a recurring theme.

[DavidSh]

I hope Mystic Muse can get back to this, before the thread fades into the mists of time.

[Bohandas]

While I agree with you, and again, trying to to steer clear of religious discussion, I think the general idea here is that Melkor's discordant chant as a selfish rebellion against both the common work and Eru is just as bad as what he'd do later because it was already evil in itself.

He knew he was ruining the Song for everybody else and marring a thing of beauty, and he'd probably have done it to, even if he'd known the people the song was about do have feelings.

Edit: Of course, as Eru freely admits in text: Illuvatar is ultimately the one most responsible for everything and he apparently made Melkor the way he is to get some rain, snow and sad songs down the line, which is an... interesting choice of priorities.

Oh yes. Eru Illuvatar is definitely a griefer too, there's no question about that.

[pendell]

It's been more than a month. What if I were to start my own readthrough? I was wanting a readthrough of the Silmarillion. The downside, of course, is that this is hardly a first time read for me and that would lose some of its charm. I'd be depending heavily on our millenial and zoomer friends for the needed snark in a readthrough.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mystic Muse]

I will be updating this week, probably Wednesday, and I'll try to do a few updates at once.

Apologies for the delays. Been busy getting things packed for moving, and dealing with class as well as stressful stuff at work, and a whole bunch of other stuff I can't list right now.

[Fyraltari]

It's been more than a month. What if I were to start my own readthrough? I was wanting a readthrough of the Silmarillion. The downside, of course, is that this is hardly a first time read for me and that would lose some of its charm. I'd be depending heavily on our millenial and zoomer friends for the needed snark in a readthrough.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

So, you'd have to be a TA 2990's kid to get it?

[pendell]

I will be updating this week, probably Wednesday, and I'll try to do a few updates at once.

Apologies for the delays. Been busy getting things packed for moving, and dealing with class as well as stressful stuff at work, and a whole bunch of other stuff I can't list right now.

I see. I look forward to your updates, and I hope things get better for you!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, finally been able to get some time to do this. To sum up life stuff

-We have repeatedly been understaffed at work. We're understaffed again this week.
-I am in the process of moving out on my own for the first time in my life. I pick up my key this Monday.
-I am taking Master Gardener Classes every Tuesday after work, which adds a lot to my mental load
-I have two certification exams that HAVE to be taken in the first week of April.

So, there's been a lot going on and while I've been meaning to resume this I have not had the mental energy to dedicate an hour+ to reading and writing things down.

Spoiler: Chapter 1: Of the Beginning Days

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"It is told among the wiuse that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked up earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand."

And then The Winged Hussars Tulkas The Strong arrived, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it. Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda and there was peace for a time.

Got to say, I really love this image of Tulkas. Also, I guess this means laughter is inherently good in the Tolkien universe? I recall something from one of the Lord of the Rings books where Gandalf banishes despair with laughter.

"And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after."

Noticing a pattern of Melkor hating Valar who reject him. Kinda petty, but I'm sure that's no surprise.

The Valar then bring order to the lands, seas and mountains. Yavanna planted the seeds she had long devised, and wrought two mighty lamps that were blessed by Manwe and set on pillars far above the earth, spreading their light in a changeless day.

Then the seeds Yavanna had sown began to burgeon, and growing things great and small abounded, trees whose tops were crowned with cloud as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wrapped in a green twlight.

I'll be honest, it's really difficult to not just write this page down verbatim.

There in the isle of Almaren was the first dwelling of the Valar when all things were young, and new made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers, and they were long content.

After all of this, Manwe ordered a great feast, and all of the Valar were invited. Melkor is not on the guest list. Understandably, Aule and Tulkas are weary for their strength has been used without cease in their labors (I guess fighting off Melkor for Aule?), and at this time Melkor already had spies among the Maiar. So when Tulkas was exhausted and content he slept for a time.

And Melkor saw his opportunity and took it. His great shadow, equal to that of the Void, was dimmed by the twin lamps in the heavens and he was able to sneak into Middle Earth unopposed, and began corrupting the world. He builds a great fortress under the earth where the light of the twin lamps do not reach, and this fortress is known as Utumno. Green things fell sick and rotted, rivers became thick with weeds and slime, Fens and swamps became poisonous blightlands, and animals became vicious.

Unfortunately, even after the Valar become aware of Melkor's machinations, there is little they can do. The majority of their strength is reserved for undoing what they can of Melkor's deeds, and Melkor has made Utumno so mighty that even Tulkas struggles to assail him within it. Melkor assailed the pillars, threw down the twin lamps, and destroying fire was poured out over the earth, and the creation of the Valar was never fully restored after this.

Thus, the Spring of Arda is ended, and the Valar no more have a dwelling place upon the earth. Thus, they depart to the Westernmost lands, known as Aman, and Manwe raises the highest mountain in Middle Earth to be his throne and as protection, the wall of mountains known as the Pelori. None but the Valar know how wide the sea to Aman is, save that beyond the sea is the Wall of Night.

Excuse my slightly silly question here, but is the Wall of Night basically space?

Behind the wall of the Pelori they build Valinor, and it is more majestic even than Arda in the Spring of creation. They created fairer things yet, and Melkor's touch did not reach there, the very stones and water were hallowed and the paradise never faded.

And when Valinor was full wrought, Yavanna began singing once again, at the top of the greenest hill in the land. Nienna watched, and wept, and her tears watered the mould. And as the rest of the valar watched, two thin shoots shot up from the hill. Silence was all over the world in that hour, there was no sound save the chanting of Yavanna. And thus there awoke in the world the two trees of Valinor, the most renowned of all things Yavanna made.

One tree has leaves of dark green, and silver beneath that drops silver dew from its countless flowers and was named Telperion. The other has leaves of bright green, like a newly sprouted bud, and gold underneath, and its flowers are as flame and it drops golden dew to the earth, and is named Laurelin.

In seven hours the glory of the trees waxed to full and waned again to naught, therefore at the sixth hour of the First Day, Telperion ceased his flower, and at the twelth hour Laurelin her blossoming, and each day in Valinor contained 12 hours.

Thus began the days of bliss of Valinor, and thus also began the Count of Time.

The chapter is not entirely done, but I am going to call it a night for now. The next chapter is pretty short, and I should be able to get another post done Wednesday after next at the latest. I also feel like I'm treading water trying to get the last few pages done, and don't want to be lackluster in my description of things.

I am really enjoying this, I just should have not packed the beginning of the year with so much.

[factotum]

You've got to bear in mind that Arda is a flat world at this time. The Wall of Night is what separates it from the Void outside the universe...there aren't even any stars in the sky right now, they're created later on. It's also worth noting that Arda was originally completely symmetrical, and the destruction caused by Melkor (especially the felling of the Lamps) was largely what caused things to become broken and asymmetric.

As for laughter, I just read that as meaning Tulkas is so gleeful in his pursuit of Melkor that it scares the *bleep* out of the latter!

[DavidSh]

There are some stars, just not the full complement of bright stars. Just after the Trees are described, the text says how "Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä."

[Fyraltari]

I don't think Aulë was tired from fighting Melkor. He had mountains to rise, that sounds tiring. Likewise, Tulkas' whole deal being "strong fighter guy", I think his fatigue durong this time of construction and uneasy peace would be from doing some literal heavy lifting for his peers.

[pendell]

Alright, finally been able to get some time to do this. To sum up life stuff

-We have repeatedly been understaffed at work. We're understaffed again this week.
-I am in the process of moving out on my own for the first time in my life. I pick up my key this Monday.
-I am taking Master Gardener Classes every Tuesday after work, which adds a lot to my mental load
-I have two certification exams that HAVE to be taken in the first week of April.

Wow, that's a lot. I can only offer sympathy as you fight your way through this.

Master Gardener, Master Gardener ... wait, are you Samwise Gamgee ?

So, there's been a lot going on and while I've been meaning to resume this I have not had the mental energy to

Spoiler: Chapter 1: Of the Beginning Days

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"It is told among the wiuse that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked up earth; and for long Melkor had the upper hand."

And then The Winged Hussars Tulkas The Strong arrived, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it. Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda and there was peace for a time.

Got to say, I really love this image of Tulkas. Also, I guess this means laughter is inherently good in the Tolkien universe? I recall something from one of the Lord of the Rings books where Gandalf banishes despair with laughter.

"And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after."

Noticing a pattern of Melkor hating Valar who reject him. Kinda petty, but I'm sure that's no surprise.

The Valar then bring order to the lands, seas and mountains. Yavanna planted the seeds she had long devised, and wrought two mighty lamps that were blessed by Manwe and set on pillars far above the earth, spreading their light in a changeless day.

Then the seeds Yavanna had sown began to burgeon, and growing things great and small abounded, trees whose tops were crowned with cloud as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wrapped in a green twlight.

I'll be honest, it's really difficult to not just write this page down verbatim.

There in the isle of Almaren was the first dwelling of the Valar when all things were young, and new made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers, and they were long content.

After all of this, Manwe ordered a great feast, and all of the Valar were invited. Melkor is not on the guest list. Understandably, Aule and Tulkas are weary for their strength has been used without cease in their labors (I guess fighting off Melkor for Aule?), and at this time Melkor already had spies among the Maiar. So when Tulkas was exhausted and content he slept for a time.

And Melkor saw his opportunity and took it. His great shadow, equal to that of the Void, was dimmed by the twin lamps in the heavens and he was able to sneak into Middle Earth unopposed, and began corrupting the world. He builds a great fortress under the earth where the light of the twin lamps do not reach, and this fortress is known as Utumno. Green things fell sick and rotted, rivers became thick with weeds and slime, Fens and swamps became poisonous blightlands, and animals became vicious.

Unfortunately, even after the Valar become aware of Melkor's machinations, there is little they can do. The majority of their strength is reserved for undoing what they can of Melkor's deeds, and Melkor has made Utumno so mighty that even Tulkas struggles to assail him within it. Melkor assailed the pillars, threw down the twin lamps, and destroying fire was poured out over the earth, and the creation of the Valar was never fully restored after this.

Thus, the Spring of Arda is ended, and the Valar no more have a dwelling place upon the earth. Thus, they depart to the Westernmost lands, known as Aman, and Manwe raises the highest mountain in Middle Earth to be his throne and as protection, the wall of mountains known as the Pelori. None but the Valar know how wide the sea to Aman is, save that beyond the sea is the Wall of Night.

Excuse my slightly silly question here, but is the Wall of Night basically space?

Behind the wall of the Pelori they build Valinor, and it is more majestic even than Arda in the Spring of creation. They created fairer things yet, and Melkor's touch did not reach there, the very stones and water were hallowed and the paradise never faded.

And when Valinor was full wrought, Yavanna began singing once again, at the top of the greenest hill in the land. Nienna watched, and wept, and her tears watered the mould. And as the rest of the valar watched, two thin shoots shot up from the hill. Silence was all over the world in that hour, there was no sound save the chanting of Yavanna. And thus there awoke in the world the two trees of Valinor, the most renowned of all things Yavanna made.

One tree has leaves of dark green, and silver beneath that drops silver dew from its countless flowers and was named Telperion. The other has leaves of bright green, like a newly sprouted bud, and gold underneath, and its flowers are as flame and it drops golden dew to the earth, and is named Laurelin.

In seven hours the glory of the trees waxed to full and waned again to naught, therefore at the sixth hour of the First Day, Telperion ceased his flower, and at the twelth hour Laurelin her blossoming, and each day in Valinor contained 12 hours.

Thus began the days of bliss of Valinor, and thus also began the Count of Time.

Spoiler

Show

Got to say, I really love this image of Tulkas. Also, I guess this means laughter is inherently good in the Tolkien universe? I recall something from one of the Lord of the Rings books where Gandalf banishes despair with laughter.

I've never seen a villain laugh in LOTR, although the orcs will occasionally indulge in cruel laughter. And if you remember the tyrants of the 20th century, standup comedy was not one of their hallmarks.

Tyrants can't bear to be made fun of; their power rests on the perception of their power, the fear they instill in others. To make them ridiculous is nearly as great a blow as to shoot them, for a tyrant no one is afraid of is not going to be a tyrant for long. Melkor will follow this pattern, I think.

Tulka's laughter -- I can't remember the exact line its from , but C.S. Lewis mentioned that war is not a sombre thing for those who are fighting in it. Actual *fighting*, as opposed to the drudgery of the trenches or the daily, monotonous tedium, gets the male hormones up. Young men in a fight can react much like young men in an athletic contest. Tolkien mentioned the same thing in his writing, the "Joy of battle" that was upon Eomer during the assault of the Rohirrim on the forces besieging Minas Tirith. He was young, he was king, he was lord of a proud people. And his blood was up. So he was able to laugh in battle even when all seemed lost and his death at the hands of overwhelming forces seemed near.

Contra Fyaltari, I think Aule is exhausted from the war with Melkor. He is the smith of the gods and he's also their construction worker. Need a road through a mountain? Call Aule and his Maiar. Need an obstacle? Call Aule to raise it up. And I'll bet that if any of the Valar and Maiar are using weapons, it will be Aule's crew who are forging them day and night. Small wonder he's tired!

I don't think the Wall of Night is basically space. We will see in future chapters people enter space and travel in the sky above the world, but they are not beyond the wall of night. The Wall is ... something else. If I had to guess, it is the border between Eru's Creation and the unformed chaos outside. The world of paradox, where there are no natural laws or flow of time. Or perhaps another word to describe it would be Outer Darkness, the place to which evil things are banished, away from the sheltered world Eru and the Valar have created. Not merely absence of light, but a wild world. If Ea is a garden, then that which is beyond the wall is wilderness, untamed and wild.

I note that, again, people make things by singing. All of this world is music, unless Melkor turns it to noise and chaos.

Thank you for taking the time to put this up! I see it has been a great deal of work for you, and I appreciate the effort!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grim Portent]

The Wall of Night as I recall is what separates Arda from the Void, which is a dark space between Arda and the Timeless Halls in which Illuvatar dwells through which the Ainur who decided to dwell on Arda had to pass. Gandalf passed through it when he died as the Grey and passed through it again to return as the White, and human souls pass through it to spend their afterlife with Iluvatar.

Why the Void exists in the first place is never explained, it seems to predate the creation of even the Ainur. It's the home of nasty things with no clear origin and little to no description, though they are generally thought to be the result of Melkor mucking up the song of the Ainur.

I'm not sure if the Wall of Night was physical or purely metaphysical in nature after the world changed shape. I think originally it literally ringed the outermost limits of creation.

Spoiler: Mentions a future character.

Show

There's a theory that Ungoliant is a maia that decided to stay in the Void and became twisted by the darkness found there, turning into a creature of true darkness. Not a theory I care for, but it exists. I prefer to think of Ungoliant as something a bit more Lovecraftian in nature I suppose.

[Mystic Muse]

Wow, that's a lot. I can only offer sympathy as you fight your way through this.

Master Gardener, Master Gardener ... wait, are you Samwise Gamgee ?

I'd rather be equated to Yavanna or some other woman.

Very new to gardening, just thought it would be interesting and good to have on the resume.

[pendell]

I'd rather be equated to Yavanna or some other woman.

Make some talking trees and we'll see .

Actually, the biology majors could probably help out with that. Gene-splicing for the win!

Hmm ... how about Galadriel? She was a gardener, and quite a good one at that. At the end of Return of the King it was her gifts to Sam which undid so much of the damage the Shire had suffered during the war.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

I nominate Melian.