How to change key ability for a skill?

[Elves]

A fun build idea:
full BAB 9/war hulk 8/uncanny trickster 3
by using uncanny trickster to advance war hulk, you reach 11 BAB for a third mighty swing each round.

Admittedly, not sure how much of an advantage this is, since if you could take non-full BAB levels you could just take monk for flaiking strike or flurry of blows and get that extra attack anyway.


Better than uncanny trickster would be legacy champion, gaining us even more BAB and free stuff. The problem is it requires Knowledge (history) ranks, and war hulk has this clause:

No Time to Think (Ex): A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether or not he has bought ranks in them previously).

which makes them incompatible if we assume PRC disqualification.

So is there any way in the world to change Knowledge (history)'s key skill to something other than Intelligence? That's the only way I see to get around this.

[Rebel7284]

I don't know any way to change skills, but here are some thoughts:

- Trait Removal is a Sorcerer/Wizard 5th spell from Serpent Kingdoms that can just get rid of no time to think for hours/level.
- Best way to get BAB as a War Hulk is likely to enter as Cleric 7. Both enough levels to get the needed BAB and also enough levels to Divine Metamagic Persist Divine Power for full BAB for 24 hours a day giving you that third and 4th attack.
- Skillful weapon automatically adjusts your BAB to 3/4 if it's lower. Way worse than the Cleric approach, but is slightly harder to stop with a well placed dispel magic.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you had more than one class before becoming a legacy champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities.

1. dip a single lvl into LC to progress your base class or any other prc
2. dip a single lvl into war hulk
3. return back to LC to progress war hulk from now on

You only need to fulfill the requirements for entering a prc, not for progressing it. ;)

[loky1109]

There are feat in RoS for dwarves, which change Knowledge stat for Wisdom. Don't remember name.

[Elves]

There are feat in RoS for dwarves, which change Knowledge stat for Wisdom. Don't remember name.

Ancestral Knowledge. It would be perfect but it's still Wisdom.

- Best way to get BAB as a War Hulk is likely to enter as Cleric 7. Both enough levels to get the needed BAB and also enough levels to Divine Metamagic Persist Divine Power for full BAB for 24 hours a day giving you that third and 4th attack.
- Skillful weapon automatically adjusts your BAB to 3/4 if it's lower. Way worse than the Cleric approach, but is slightly harder to stop with a well placed dispel magic.

Rebel is probably right that it's best to just use Divine Power/skillful weapon. That lets you dip monk instead of taking uncanny trickster, for the same number of attacks while debuffed/in AMF or more while buffed. Legacy champion would still be ideal because it maximizes your debuffed/AMF attack sequence.

Trait removal technically works but isn't a good option because it means you don't function debuffed or in AMF.


As far as changing skill stat, I'm open to 2p/3p solutions if there's something in Kalamar or whatever.

[ShurikVch]

Shiba Protector PrC (Oriental Adventures): One with All and Nothing - the capstone CF - allow to use the "highest ability score modifier when making a skill check, attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw, in place of the ability score modifier" you would normally use

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Skill Finesse feat (Hyperconscious) will change a skill of your choice to any ability score of your choice (so long as it's one of your key abilities for your manifesting). It's 3rd party, but it's also the brainchild of Bruce R. Cordell, who was an official 3e developer -- he wrote the Expanded Psionics Handbook, as an example. It does require you to be a psionic manifester, however.

[FauxKnee]

I don't want to dive into a detailed analysis of the primary source rule and the prestige class requirements--it's been rehashed to death and back. I will simply say that depending on your table's interpretations, you can do some shenanigans.

If your table believes that one must continually qualify for a prestige class to receive class features (the "complete warrior and 3.0 DMG" rule) you can abuse size changes. (An example stub would be fighter 2 / stoneblessed 3 / goliath barbarian 1 / war hulk x. It only qualifies for war hulk while raging, since goliath barbarians change size while enraged.) While you areLarge or bigger, you would suffer from the No Time to Think drawbacks. When smaller, you wouldn't qualify for the class and thus wouldn't gain its Extraordinary abilities (thereby avoiding the drawback.) As long as you have control over your size changes (such as while enraged as in the example stub) you could still gain most of the benefits of (and qualify for) Legacy Champion. (Under the 3.0 ruleset and the description from Complete Warrior, you retain BAB and saves even while not qualifying for the class.)

As a bit of an aside, one of my DM's interpreted "goliath barbarians are Large" as following the monster advancement size change table. Naturally, my teammate chose the smallest LA+0 humanoid he could find-- an incarnate dustform jermlaine. This ruling meant that Rage granted him +22 Str, -6 Dex, +10 Con, +2 NA, -5 AC, -3 attack rolls, +2 morale Will saves. it was a pretty amusing character. (The player had intended to enter War Hulk later but the campaign died. That's what made it come to mind for this thread.)

[Maat Mons]

Dragon 348 has a variant effect for Bestow Greater curse that removes a class feature. Curses are permanent and non-Dispel-able. If they're cast by Initiates of Mystra, they're also not suppressed in an Antimagic Field. It's a great way to deal with class features like No Time to Think, Psychic Enervation, and Illiteracy.

[Elves]

The Skill Finesse feat (Hyperconscious) will change a skill of your choice to any ability score of your choice (so long as it's one of your key abilities for your manifesting). It's 3rd party, but it's also the brainchild of Bruce R. Cordell, who was an official 3e developer -- he wrote the Expanded Psionics Handbook, as an example. It does require you to be a psionic manifester, however.

Is there a way to get a physical score as manifesting stat?

Dragon 348 has a variant effect for Bestow Greater curse that removes a class feature. Curses are permanent and non-Dispel-able. If they're cast by Initiates of Mystra, they're also not suppressed in an Antimagic Field. It's a great way to deal with class features like No Time to Think, Psychic Enervation, and Illiteracy.

Clever, this seems like the best option so far although probably requires a cohort to cast greater bestow curse.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there a way to get a physical score as manifesting stat?

The Lost Tradition feat, from Bastards & Bloodlines? It's also 3rd party but seems to be pretty popular, even so.

[edit] Illumians also have a symbol combination (AeshKrau) that allows you to cast using Strength for bonus spells, and one for Dexterity (UurKrau), too.

[Thurbane]

The Iaijutsu Master feat lets you swap out an Iajutsu Focus check for almost any other roll or check, 1/day - but since it's Cha based, not much use for War Hulk.

The Jack of All Trades feat lets you use any skill as if you had 1/2 a rank, so if taken after you get No Time To Think, may still allow you to make trained only skill checks, depending on your reading.

[Darg]

Dragon 348 has a variant effect for Bestow Greater curse that removes a class feature. Curses are permanent and non-Dispel-able. If they're cast by Initiates of Mystra, they're also not suppressed in an Antimagic Field. It's a great way to deal with class features like No Time to Think, Psychic Enervation, and Illiteracy.

Most DMs would rule that removing a feature that penalizes the character is not a curse.

[Gruftzwerg]

Most DMs would rule that removing a feature that penalizes the character is not a curse.

Well, we have seen already optimization for cursed items (e.g Iajutsu focus + the cursed sword that always apears in your hand) or even traps (Tippyverse)..^^
But yeah, depends on the DM and the optimization lvl of the table.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Most DMs would rule that removing a feature that penalizes the character is not a curse.

It's also RAW that curses can be beneficial, else dust of sneezing and choking wouldn't be so incredibly useful to have.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's also RAW that curses can be beneficial, else dust of sneezing and choking wouldn't be so incredibly useful to have.

You are standing in the middle of the effect and are also affected. Because it is "cast into the air" (around you where it spreads 20ft). You are not allowed to throw it into another square by the rules.

I don't see that as beneficial unless you are immune against the effect.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You are standing in the middle of the effect and are also affected. Because it is "cast into the air" (around you where it spreads 20ft). You are not allowed to throw it into another square by the rules.

I don't see that as beneficial unless you are immune against the effect.

There are lots of ways to get it to work, not the least of which being having friends to gank your enemies (but not you) after you stunlock them. There's also the necklace of adaptation to make you immune, or hurling the container with a gnome calculus. (Check with the DM to see if the latter will work beforehand, of course.)

[mattie_p]

Would mettle or necropolitan work for immunity?

[Darg]

Would mettle or necropolitan work for immunity?

Some mettles would work, but the item does not say that it is actually a poison or that it actually requires the victim to breathe it in or breathe at all. Over all, it would be up to your DM.

It's also RAW that curses can be beneficial, else dust of sneezing and choking wouldn't be so incredibly useful to have.

I don't see the connection. I've never come across anything that says curses can be beneficial for all cases. Sure, if you need to pass as some weak dude for whatever reason, -6 str can help you do that. Not being dumb however really has no downsides and is 100% beneficial compared to the blue moon beneficial circumstance of -6 str. If you think changing genders isn't a curse, it is fundamentally changing who you are. Many people aren't going to be happy to have their gender swapped. All War hulks on the other hand would only ever see benefit to have this class feature removed.

[Doctor Despair]

Not being dumb however really has no downsides and is 100% beneficial compared to the blue moon beneficial circumstance of -6 str. If you think changing genders isn't a curse, it is fundamentally changing who you are. Many people aren't going to be happy to have their gender swapped.

1. Mind Sight lets people see your Int Score. If you are trying to disguise yourself as another character, having the correct Int score could be integral. If you are smarter than the person you are disguising yourself as, being able to get up to a -6 penalty is very beneficial.

2. You mentioned gender swapping being negative for some, but it would definitely be positive for some in a medieval world with no transition procedures or medications available.

[Darg]

1. Mind Sight lets people see your Int Score. If you are trying to disguise yourself as another character, having the correct Int score could be integral. If you are smarter than the person you are disguising yourself as, being able to get up to a -6 penalty is very beneficial.

2. You mentioned gender swapping being negative for some, but it would definitely be positive for some in a medieval world with no transition procedures or medications available.

That's the point. Any beneficial aspect of a curse should be an uncommon occurrence. In almost all cases a penalty to int is going to be bad (especially if you use ability score as indicative of ability). Most people aren't going to want to be gender swapped. Removing the No Time To Think (Ex) feature is always going to be beneficial.

[Doctor Despair]

That's the point. Any beneficial aspect of a curse should be an uncommon occurrence. In almost all cases a penalty to int is going to be bad (especially if you use ability score as indicative of ability). Most people aren't going to want to be gender swapped. Removing the No Time To Think (Ex) feature is always going to be beneficial.

Hmm... I can't think of a mechanical way to assess someone else's skill ranks, so disguise is out. I don't think there's a way to have NEGATIVE ranks in a skill, so it can't help you that way either. Is there a benefit to being able to consistently fail mental skill checks? I can imagine being able to fail sense motive could be beneficial in some cases to maintain party cohesiveness, or be able to pass false information under Zone of Truth or similar effects. Likewise, failing Diplomacy could aggro opponents; failing appraise could help you negotiate prices up (as you believe it's worth more than it is). There are some upsides.

[loky1109]

That's the point. Any beneficial aspect of a curse should be an uncommon occurrence. In almost all cases a penalty to int is going to be bad (especially if you use ability score as indicative of ability). Most people aren't going to want to be gender swapped. Removing the No Time To Think (Ex) feature is always going to be beneficial.

You do wrong comparison.
Removing class feature isn't always beneficial and you should compare exactly this with general Int decrease or general gender swapping. Not special case which is removing the No Time To Think (Ex) feature.

[ShurikVch]

If rules for PrC disqualification are in play - then Shrink Collar can negate No Time To Think by reducing character's Size below Large

If not in play - then Incarnate Construct can remove it permanently

[Feldar]

Boots of Agile Leaping (MIC) turn jump from Str-based to Dex-based. At 600g, a similar item seems like a pretty cheap solution to the need.