A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    The staff is *only* good for S if the spell also has M component. If it doesn't, the staff gets in the way.
    by strict RaW you're right. thank you for pointing that out. i mean, overall i'd recomend grabbing warcaster anyway which alleviates the problem altogether.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    > RAW, the wizard knows the 5' cube that the invisible monk is in unless that monk took the Hide action.

    I disagree. The RAW leaves it up to the DM to determine.

    Here's a thought experiment, does your character know the exact location of every creature on the planet at all times except those that are taking the hide action? Obviously not, so at what range do you suddenly become aware of the exact location of creatures? And more specifically for RAW, where does the books give that range?
    Sure. DMG page 243, under "Visibility Outdoors" . a clear day, you can see 2 miles, or until your view is obscured by terrain features.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    Sure. DMG page 243, under "Visibility Outdoors" . a clear day, you can see 2 miles, or until your view is obscured by terrain features.
    Also, if you don't have a sight line the Oddly enough DM's screen has encounter distances and audible distance that you can use to quickly determine if someone is in a detectable range.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    I disagree. The RAW leaves it up to the DM to determine.

    Here's a thought experiment, does your character know the exact location of every creature on the planet at all times except those that are taking the hide action? Obviously not, so at what range do you suddenly become aware of the exact location of creatures? And more specifically for RAW, where does the books give that range? Let's say you are outside a building that you can't see into but you hear 2 people arguing, do you know the exact location of those 2 people, what about the 3rd person in the building that is sitting there listening to the argument but not speaking, do you know they are there and there exact location?
    Of course a DM is welcome to use rule zero or guy-at-the-gym logic in their own games but this is a pvp scenerio where a DM must be as fair and by the book as possible. The invisible condition does exactly what it says it does and nothing more. If while invisible the monk moves from its original position or takes an action without first hiding (as is now possilbe without any cover thanks to invisibility) the monk's position will be known.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorpalchicken View Post
    Of course a DM is welcome to use rule zero or guy-at-the-gym logic in their own games but this is a pvp scenerio where a DM must be as fair and by the book as possible. The invisible condition does exactly what it says it does and nothing more. If while invisible the monk moves from its original position or takes an action without first hiding (as is now possilbe without any cover thanks to invisibility) the monk's position will be known.
    Correct. Without hiding, the invisible monk is targetable (albeit not by anything that specifically requires you to see him), and you know where he is in general. Hiding is required to obscure your location and prevent people from knowing you are where you are. You are not targetable if you are hidden from the attacker, though they can still try to drop AoEs on you by guessing. Being invisible makes it easier to hide by granting you obscurement from visual detection, meaning you don't need to find a hiding place. You can hide "in plain sight" if you're invisible because you're not in sight.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    I haven't read the other posts so perhaps I may repeat some things already mentioned:

    Some key points:

    The most dangerous Monks are those with high speed and flight. Aarakocra, Tabaxi with winged boots etc. If you see a vhuman you shouldn't be worried too much because you have a lot of tatics.

    Spell mastery: Shield. Don't even try without it. You need to stack it with Shapechange forms if you want to fight.

    Prepare Forcecage but assume that the Monk has a way to get out of it. If not you have already won. Only use it if you are safe from a counter attack. If he is serious about this, he should optimize for this eventuality.

    Expect the Monk to be able to close at least 120 ft distance and still be able to attack you with stunning strike. If he is Aarakocra it's 160 ft. I'm not very well versed in magical items. I'm going to assume that he won't reach 120 ft of base speed however, which is a fairly important point since a lot of Shapechange forms have that speed and can kite/chase.

    DO NOT fight with forms that don't have Legendary Resistance or Stun immunity. If you do you will lose.

    The best form for most Wizards is Ancient White Dragon. This is the only form you can duel in. However Monk can easily run away and kite at max Longbow range. You can use a Storm Giant Quintessent and try to fight him, but technically he can just kite you if he has increased speed from either race or items. Perhaps you can do some trick by transforming into a Planetar and closing the distance, then back into Storm Giant and shoot but it's risky. If he is a vhuman/clineage without other speed boosts, then you can easily do this.

    One way to counter the 600 ft range Longbow is potion of haste. Ancient White Dragon with potion of haste has 160 base flight + haste action dash. Monk should have a lot of trouble outrunning this. Another way to do this is with a spell storing ring. You give it to your familiar and during the fight you dimension door away, make your familiar haste you and you dismiss it temporarily. RAW the Familiar doesnt lose concentration even if it's in another dimension, so you should have 9 turns to fight with a hasted dragon form. This is only useful for open space though. If it's closed then you should be able to just chase after him.

    Phoenix is a form immune to stun with 120 ft range. However Monk can kill it in a duel unless you are a Bladesinger (and use Bladesong). I'm not sure how much difference items can do here however. It's better to use it if you have already dealt some damage to the Monk.

    Contingency: Resilient Sphere should take care of initiative. You don't have to go Diviner but you need to act fast and not waste turns. Stunning Strike can be used to great effect.

    Get the Lucky feat. If Monk manages to win initiative and you don't have contingency, Lucky is the only thing that will save you. Monk winning initiative, even in closed space, is NOT a 100% chance to win. It's more like 55% and it depends on your AC. You don't want that scenario to happen, but it's not the end yet.

    While you can fight him while Empty Body is up, you can also run away and make him waste 4 Ki.

    Magic Missiles will be your main way to deal damage to Monk. It goes through Missile Deflection.

    Be mindful of a 4 elements monk. He can burst you down hard with Water Whip and break your concentration. Make sure to shapechange into a Legendary Resistance form asap. However if he misuses this ability then he is done for.

    Increasing your proficiency through an Ioun stone sounds like the best idea to me. It works on Shapechange forms too.

    A lot of forms have truesight and blindfight, make use of it if he tries to hide from you. Planetar is a good one, just make sure to stay safe. It's easy to get baited if he has increased speed.

    If I think of anything else I will add.
    Last edited by Gtdead; 2021-12-07 at 11:37 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post

    Prepare Forcecage but assume that the Monk has a way to get out of it.
    Do monks have a way to get out of it? They don't have any sub/class features which work to do so.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    Do monks have a way to get out of it? They don't have any sub/class features which work to do so.
    Shadow Step is the only one I can think of.

    A monk knowing he's facing a high-level wizard and with enough meta knowledge to know that they have forcecage will likely have a Cape of the Mountebank or some similar means of teleporting, though.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    I don't want to derail this thread so this will likely be the last post on the subject.

    The idea that you know the exact location of an invisible creature that isn't hidding up to 2 miles away is absurd and certainly not RAW. And the encounter distance rules from the DMs Screen (If they are even RAW) are also based on sight only the Audible distance table might apply. And I say might because it's still about encounter distance and not something to be used in combat. The rules for knowing the position of an invisible creature are in the Appendix of the PHB "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." That's it, it's entirely up to the DM to determine whether you can hear the invisible creature moving around, at what distance you actually know the exact location, at what range you have a general location, how your perception/passive perception impacts that, etc...

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Shadow Step is the only one I can think of.
    Shadowstep doesn't work, because it's a non-magical teleport, per sage advice compendium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    A monk knowing he's facing a high-level wizard and with enough meta knowledge to know that they have forcecage will likely have a Cape of the Mountebank or some similar means of teleporting, though.
    This does work, though they will need to make a cha save (probably at +5-6, with a reroll) vs 19-22, and if they flub they're stuck.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    The idea that you know the exact location of an invisible creature that isn't hidding up to 2 miles away is absurd and certainly not RAW.
    No-one is suggesting that it is. Encounter distance is fuzzy and up to the DM. But if the DM deems the creature could be easily seen were it not invisible, or deems it can be reasonably heard or smelt or otherwise have its presence detected if it doesn't take special care (i.e. the Hide action) to disguise its other sensory cues, then the creature's location is known.

    It may refer to "sight distance" in the DM screen, but sight actually isn't a "special" sense for detection in D&D, other than it being the one required not to have disadvantage when attacking a creature or being specifically called out as necessary for some spells' targeting. Being invisible no more makes you undetectable than being silent does. It does provide total obscurement, though, making taking the Hide action possible without further need to seek such obscurement out.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    No-one is suggesting that it is. Encounter distance is fuzzy and up to the DM. But if the DM deems the creature could be easily seen were it not invisible, or deems it can be reasonably heard or smelt or otherwise have its presence detected if it doesn't take special care (i.e. the Hide action) to disguise its other sensory cues, then the creature's location is known.

    It may refer to "sight distance" in the DM screen, but sight actually isn't a "special" sense for detection in D&D, other than it being the one required not to have disadvantage when attacking a creature or being specifically called out as necessary for some spells' targeting. Being invisible no more makes you undetectable than being silent does. It does provide total obscurement, though, making taking the Hide action possible without further need to seek such obscurement out.
    Your first paragraph is my point, by RAW it's up to the DM to determine at what distance you can reasonably be heard/smelt or otherwise detected. If the invisible creature is outside that range then you don't know their exact location regardless of whether the invisible creature took the hide action or not.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnestic View Post
    Do monks have a way to get out of it? They don't have any sub/class features which work to do so.
    Shadow Monk can teleport out of it and Monk has CHA proficiency thanks to Diamond Soul. Also he may have a +CHA item to help with the saving throw.
    Additionally I'm sure there are a few items that give you access to Dimension Door.

    So if you put all your eggs in the same basket, you may get RNG'd to death. After all Monk wins this fight mostly by RNG. Managing to Win initiative and Stun locking, breaking Shapechange forms with stun etc.

    Edit: I wasn't aware that Shadow's teleport doesn't work. But I'm assuming that he will invest in an item that gives him a chance.
    Last edited by Gtdead; 2021-12-07 at 01:15 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
    Your first paragraph is my point, by RAW it's up to the DM to determine at what distance you can reasonably be heard/smelt or otherwise detected. If the invisible creature is outside that range then you don't know their exact location regardless of whether the invisible creature took the hide action or not.
    Arguably, outside that range it isn't guaranteed that you could be seen if you were visible, either. When you start getting to these distances, noticing somebody visible becomes less than certain, and may require a perception check anyway.

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