El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

[Kish]

While I am not at all certain this is what Dan is going for, it does occur to me that Grace, who isn't human, is thus the only one in the room whose reactions have no reason to be even a tiny bit informed by an instinctive "blatantly nonhuman=dangerous monster."

[theNater]

Elliot's eagerness to reach for the "villain form" does make it substantially more likely that he will assume it at some point.

I reserve the right to call him an idiot when he does. In fact I'm also going to do so right now, for the reason I outlined here. Like so:

*draws breath*

Elliot, you are an idiot.

Can I just point out that "something happens" doesn't have to mean "we fight the griffins". Off the top of my head, the meeting could be attacked by enemies of Mr. Verres or of the griffins.

[Gnoman]

While I am not at all certain this is what Dan is going for, it does occur to me that Grace, who isn't human, is thus the only one in the room whose reactions have no reason to be even a tiny bit informed by an instinctive "blatantly nonhuman=dangerous monster."

I don't think that's the issue here. They're treating the griffins as dangerous because the griffins have already shown themselves to be extremely powerful. Other than that, the reaction has been much more "well, they're good people, but...".

[Maat Mons]

I'm the exact opposite of Conan the O'Brien the Barbarian the Librarian, I have an easy time staying thin, and great difficulty putting on muscle.

[Kish]

Can I just point out that "something happens" doesn't have to mean "we fight the griffins". Off the top of my head, the meeting could be attacked by enemies of Mr. Verres or of the griffins.

I don't think that's the issue here. They're treating the griffins as dangerous because the griffins have already shown themselves to be extremely powerful. Other than that, the reaction has been much more "well, they're good people, but...".

Sure. Y'can point out whatever you like. And I'll wave at the recent comics and say I find your interpretation of them incomprehensible. All their preparations, Mr. Verres' freaking out and lecturing Grace and Tedd on how they shouldn't be acting like they're going to a friendly meeting and sharing information with allies, Elliot's proposing that he turn into a villain, have been 100% about fear of the griffins. "It's just, if there is trouble, griffins are really strong" etc. is hard to mistake for "if there is trouble the hypothetical aberrations who would be attacking us would be really strong."

[theNater]

...Mr. Verres' freaking out and lecturing Grace and Tedd on how they shouldn't be acting like they're going to a friendly meeting and sharing information with allies...have been 100% about fear of the griffins.

"Someone else entirely shows up instead of them", so no, it's not 100% about fear of the griffins. For Mr. Verres, at least, it's about being prepared for the unexpected, and he doesn't think traumatized teenagers are the best fit for that.

[Windscion]

Another possibility is that Grace makes them freak out. My reasons for thinking this are twofold: Uryuoms not from outer space means Uryuom's come from their half (or other fraction) of the world. And Grace is completely positive about meeting griffins, so it stands to reason she's where the trouble will come from.

[Maat Mons]

Yeah, Grace pinging as Demon Queen in the same way Nanase pings as Princess seems a definite possibility. Let's hope that's not what happens though, because Grace might cry.

[Radar]

Another possibility is that Grace makes them freak out. My reasons for thinking this are twofold: Uryuoms not from outer space means Uryuom's come from their half (or other fraction) of the world. And Grace is completely positive about meeting griffins, so it stands to reason she's where the trouble will come from.

She is also part Lespuko and we know very little about them.

[Windscion]

Honestly, I tend to forget that. Because, as you say, we don't know much about them.

Edit: Amusing thought. The Griffins are okay with the Human/Uryuom/Lespuko bits, it's the squirrel part that freaks them out.

[Rater202]

We're told that Lepsukos are related to Uryuoms. IIRC the explicit comparison was humans to apes? So if Uryuom are not from space, neither are Lepsukos.

[Windscion]

Oh, I put Lespuko thru the Uryuomoco to english translator (finally).
Lespuko -> Rockape.

Which could mean something like troll? Tolkien type, not D&D types.

[Maat Mons]

And speaking of Wizards being able to copy spells from people, when magic goes public they're going to have to figure out how copyrighting spells works. If a Seer invents a new spell, is it copyrighted to them? If a non-Wizard spontaneously gains a spell, is it copyrighted to them, or is The Will of Magic considered to be the creator? If someone hundreds of years ago had a Boob Growth spell, does that mean all Boob Growth magic is now in the public domain?

[InvisibleBison]

And speaking of Wizards being able to copy spells from people, when magic goes public they're going to have to figure out how copyrighting spells works. If a Seer invents a new spell, is it copyrighted to them? If a non-Wizard spontaneously gains a spell, is it copyrighted to them, or is The Will of Magic considered to be the creator? If someone hundreds of years ago had a Boob Growth spell, does that mean all Boob Growth magic is now in the public domain?

Spells would probably fall under the domain of patents, not copyrights. Not that that means there wouldn't be an enormous legal mess to sort out, of course, just that it would be a different mess than the one you're speculating about.

[Fyraltari]

And speaking of Wizards being able to copy spells from people, when magic goes public they're going to have to figure out how copyrighting spells works. If a Seer invents a new spell, is it copyrighted to them? If a non-Wizard spontaneously gains a spell, is it copyrighted to them, or is The Will of Magic considered to be the creator? If someone hundreds of years ago had a Boob Growth spell, does that mean all Boob Growth magic is now in the public domain?

No they don't. Spells aren't created by their users, they're given to them by magic.

Edit: The philosophical justification* for copyrights and patents is to incite creation by allowing greater profits for the creator. Spell creation would happen regardless.

*And it's highly debated whether that works or if it's even worth it.

[Rater202]

Yeah. Seers might be able to patent or copyright highly specific spells that they personally invented and thus have some control over how wands holding them are distributed, but otherwise, I don't think you can claim that a natural phenomenon or the products thereof are your intellectual property.

There might be laws curtailing the ability of wizards to copy spells... But considering that that's an inherent aspect of being a wizard I don't know how exactly a reasonable take on such a law would go. Especially if it's an automatic process rather than something you consciously turn on and off.

[Maat Mons]

Looking into it, the US no longer allows companies to patent people's DNA. So I guess that same logic would apply to naturally-occurring spells.

Then again, up until 2013, 20% of the human genome was considered to be the intellectual property of various companies, and it took 3 separate Supreme Court cases to decide that other people don't own your DNA, so some random Wizard patenting your innate spell and charging you for the privilege of using it is not legally far-fetched.

[Fyraltari]

Looking into it, the US no longer allows companies to patent people's DNA.

They did WHAT!?

[Lord Raziere]

They did WHAT!?

I'm american and I didn't know this either. I'm not surprised though. corporations will try and copyright anything and everything. if they could, I'd wager they'd trademark the air in their buildings and charge you breathing in them.

[Grim Portent]

Legal precedent in the US, and many other places, used to be and sometimes still is that patients have no legal rights to tissue samples taken from them by their doctors, nor any rights to the products or profits of any research conducted using those tissue samples. Medical privacy regulations used to be much more lax as well.

For example, HeLa cells, the first line of immortal cells for lab use. Taken without her knowledge from a woman called Henrietta Lacks while she was being treated for cervical cancer in 1951 (she died a few months after being admitted to hospital.) The specialist at the hospital was given the samples which had been taken as a routine matter, as was normal at the time, and found that the cells didn't die out after a certain number of divisions. He then proceeded to send these cells to other hospitals and research clinics for the use in experiments.

Lacks, and her family, didn't even know this had been done for about two decades as I recall, and were deemed not to have any right to compensation for it. Meanwhile HeLa cells are still used in medical research all over the place.

DNA codes and so on are/were in a similar boat, the right to patent/copyright them belongs to the people or organisation that 'discovers' them, not the person from whom they actually came.

[Fyraltari]

DNA codes and so on are/were in a similar boat, the right to patent/copyright them belongs to the people or organisation that 'discovers' them, not the person from whom they actually came.

I am now picturing patients being sued by pharmaceutical companies for copyright infringements by having children.

[Rater202]

Wrote multiple papers on that and on a similar case in college. I recommend reading The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks for more detail.

The worst part? Neither the hospital nor the man who first experimeted with her cells patented HeLa. They didn't exactly handle things the most ethically(they took cells from Lacks' children under less than clear circumstances,) but they weren't trying to turn a profit here. They didn't make a dime off of it but then other researchers cultivated specific strains of Hela, patented them, and made a fortune.

The Lacks family had been considering suing on and off but the truth is the only people they can sue over it just don't have the money to pay them. The people who made money on Henrietta's literal flesh and blood weren't involved in the questionable stuff.

...Allegedly, the doctor who took her cells told her about what they were doing and she expressed happiness that something good could come from her suffering which... I would hope to be true, but every first-hand witness to the incident is now deceased so... Not like we'll ever know for sure.

For what it's worth, when he himself came down with cancer he gave the surgeons strict instructions to take tissue samples from him to try and cultivate another immortal cell line. They did not follow through, but he money where his mouth is and tried to treat himself the same as any other patient.

[JeenLeen]

Spells would probably fall under the domain of patents, not copyrights. Not that that means there wouldn't be an enormous legal mess to sort out, of course, just that it would be a different mess than the one you're speculating about.

No they don't. Spells aren't created by their users, they're given to them by magic.

Edit: The philosophical justification* for copyrights and patents is to incite creation by allowing greater profits for the creator. Spell creation would happen regardless.

*And it's highly debated whether that works or if it's even worth it.

Yeah. Seers might be able to patent or copyright highly specific spells that they personally invented and thus have some control over how wands holding them are distributed, but otherwise, I don't think you can claim that a natural phenomenon or the products thereof are your intellectual property.

There might be laws curtailing the ability of wizards to copy spells... But considering that that's an inherent aspect of being a wizard I don't know how exactly a reasonable take on such a law would go. Especially if it's an automatic process rather than something you consciously turn on and off.

The web serial Unsong (unsongbook.com) has the premise of corporations copywriting (or patenting, forget which) spells.

Spoiler: very minor spoiler for first chapter

Show

The opening chapter has someone getting a fine for casting a spell instead of buying an approved scroll from the company.

If magic became super-widespread, I could see something like that being tried. Unclear how successful it'd be or not, especially since wand-crafting is rather limited. But I'm sure (barring government intervention) some seer would try to make a company selling wands or equivalent devices. We already know there's a black market for magical artifacts, so a legal alternative makes sense to form if magic were accepted/acknowledged.

[Fyraltari]

People don't usually need to say the spells' names out loud to cast them, right?

Therefore I deduce that Mr. Verres watches anime.

[mucat]

People don't usually need to say the spells' names out loud to cast them, right?

Therefore I deduce that Mr. Verres watches anime.

Hey, you don't have to yell "Fire in the hole!" when you light the fuse on the dynamite, but it's a good idea.

He might be giving Eliot and Grace a tactical alert: "Barrier's up!"

[Lord Raziere]

Hey, you don't have to yell "Fire in the hole!" when you light the fuse on the dynamite, but it's a good idea.

He might be giving Eliot and Grace a tactical alert: "Barrier's up!"

Yeah there is tactical reasons to yell stuff like that. there is a danger that someone in Dragon Ball Z might charge in if you don't yell kamehameha to make sure they stay clear of the planet-spanning beam of death, as well to make sure your allies are clear in various other settings because a lot of things are probably going to be destroyed. makes no sense when your doing a punch or a kick though. as for the problem letting enemies know well.....hopefully the blast is too fast to react to that it doesn't matter whether they know they're screwed, that kind of stuff is coming at you near-instantly.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah there is tactical reasons to yell stuff like that. there is a danger that someone in Dragon Ball Z might charge in if you don't yell kamehameha to make sure they stay clear of the planet-spanning beam of death, as well to make sure your allies are clear in various other settings because a lot of things are probably going to be destroyed. makes no sense when your doing a punch or a kick though. as for the problem letting enemies know well.....hopefully the blast is too fast to react to that it doesn't matter whether they know they're screwed, that kind of stuff is coming at you near-instantly.

.. the Doylist explanation, of course, is that it simply makes the action a lot easier to parse for your readers/viewers. Having Edward call his spell informs us that he is the source of the cutoff line there and that he isn't, for example, being disintegrated by a glowy magic shockwave projecting ahead of the other figure in that panel. Which would otherwise be a completely sensible interpretation of that scene. (Well, excepting that EGS is not going to kill Tedd's father that way.)

[Rater202]

I'll note that Abraham says "modern knowledge. Modern garb" when casting the relevant spells and that Raven says "Murder shroud" when attacking Abraham with exploding crows conjured by a shroud of smoke about him.

Some spells might have a verbal component.

[Gnoman]

That's... that's an ominous glasses shot in the last panel.

[Windscion]

I am more concerned by the fact that we see an actual griffin profile. I was hoping this was something else, for the simple reason that almost anything else would be less dangerous than a furious griffin.