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2021-12-15, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
So ... Edward is having trouble understanding/accepting Tedd == over the span of whole comic.
And now Arthur has to take on the role of being diplomatic/ambassadorial with Tedd. He doesn't seem to be doing badly, which is interesting but not really surprising. No surprising because Tedd is very open to being listened to. Lucky Tedd. Some of us learned not to volunteer info because it would be used against us.
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2021-12-16, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Toledo, Ohio
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Funny thing about the team-building exercise this is referencing. I actually did this one in school, and remember one thing very clearly - on the list was two handguns, which everyone discarded as useless. Turned out the "correct" answer was to use them as a method of propulsion, the math of which never seemed right to me.
The exercise is a "palette swap" of one involving a plane crash in the desert, where both the compass and the pistols made more sense - the compass, while working, is useless because trying to walk your way out is suicide; while the pistols are a very useful signalling device.
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2021-12-16, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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- Where I am
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
I had the "stranded in the Canadian wilderness" variant in high school.
My group selected the map—if we could find a landmark we might be able to set up camp, the tent for shelter, and the bottle of high proof whiskey for the sake of 1: Something flammable in case we had trouble starting a fire with scavenged and 2: disinfecting water if we can't filter or boil it.
And then one of the asshats I was paired up with threw in "staying sane" with the whiskey(IE, drinking it straight to get drunk) after we agreed not too and we lost points. (It may have been on purpose... I'd turned him in after catching him dealing drugs out of his locker in middle school.)
I don't remember what the "right" things were, but we also lost points for taking the map becuase "they're dangerous, they'll make you think you can navigate to civilization" when... Our entire reason was "if we can find a landmark we can set up a camp somewhere relatively safe." Just ignored our reasoning, the maser list said the map was bad so choosing the map is wrong.
Oh. There was a mirror we were supposed to use to shine a light at passing airplanes coming to rescue us... But the way it was worded suggested that we'd be able to scavenge from the environment so I figured we'd use a ... fire for that.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-12-16, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
I'm not really sure what the point of the third panel is. Grace isn't being cuter than usual, is she?
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2021-12-16, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2020
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- Right behind you
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
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2021-12-16, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-12-16, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
This was the one we had, as well as one about being stuck in the desert after your Jeep broke down. Neither had any firearms for us, although I think the jungle one had a flare gun?
Again, both times a backpack was one of the options, but we couldn't use it to carry more stuff. This infuriates me to this day.
Both times the trick was 'stay with the vehicle', which to me isn't really fitting with the wording of the premise. Next time I'm putting the bloody plane on my list.
Also surely if you're already on the moon it's more efficient to just walk around instead of firing a pistol to move?
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2021-12-16, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Canterlot, Equestria
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Using a pistol to propel yourself around the moon is dumb. Best case scenario, you can jump a bit more which is completely unnecessary on a surface with no cliffs or holes. Worst case scenario, you propel yourself out of the moon's gravity well and launch yourself into space.
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2021-12-16, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Even with the lowered gravity of the moon, I can't imagine the energy used to propel a tiny bullet would be of any use in reverse-propelling a full sized human.
I mean, it's simple physics.
F = m*a
The mass of a person is much MUCH higher than the mass of a bullet. At any given force F, the counter-force will have a much MUCH smaller effect on the person holding the gun than it does on the bullet.
It's feasible in zero gravity, where there are essentially no other strong forces at work on you. But on the moon? I'm doubtful.Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2021-12-16 at 03:07 PM.
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2021-12-16, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Canterlot, Equestria
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
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2021-12-16, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Yeah but since it isn't speed squared like with kinetic energy that still isn't enough to amount to much. A pistol bullet weighs about 1/10000th of an adult human. So if it goes 1000km/h that is just enough for you to go 0.1 km/h.
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2021-12-16, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Canterlot, Equestria
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Princess Celestia's Homebrew Corner
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2021-12-16, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
I think we actually should be using the kinetic energy equation. Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final velocity. And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of the bullet inside the barrel.
No, wait. The equation full of v's and m's seemed tempting, since v's and m's are what we know, but I'm struggling to find a way to meaningfully correlate the kinetic energy of the bullet with the kinetic energy of the shooter.Last edited by Maat Mons; 2021-12-16 at 10:50 PM.
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2021-12-16, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
If it's speed you're looking for, why would you use reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum to do this? mme * v0, me + mbullet * v0, bullet = mme * v1, me + mbullet * v1, bullet; assuming that I and the bullet are initially stationary in my inertial frame of reference, mme * v1, me = mbullet * v1, bullet, or v1, me = (mbullet / mme) * v1, bullet.
Incidentally, you can achieve escape velocity on the moon with a bicycle.
Incidentally, in order to achieve this velocity by firing a single bullet from a pistol with a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s, a person would need to fire a bullet about 2.5 times as massive as they themselves are. Somehow, I don't believe that accidentally achieving escape velocity from the lunar surface by firing a pistol - or virtually any infantry weapon, for that matter - at the ground is a serious concern; more realistic concerns might include accidentally shooting yourself in the foot, damaging your spacesuit with a richochet or with fragments launched from the lunar surface by the impact of the bullet, or being knocked off-balance by the recoil of the pistol due to inexperience with firearms in lower-than-Earth-gravity environments.
I think we actually should be using the kinetic energy equation. Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final velocity. And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of the bullet inside the barrel.
Conservation of Energy would however be a relatively easy way to estimate how high up a single pistol shot could propel a person once you've computed how fast the person is moving immediately after firing the pistol, as the height above the lunar surface at which your lunar gravitational potential energy equals the kinetic energy that you'd have immediately after firing the pistol directly downwards while standing on the lunar surface is the height at which you stop ascending (assuming, at any rate, that your lunar gravitational potential energy is referenced to the lunar surface).Last edited by Aeson; 2021-12-16 at 10:58 PM.
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2021-12-17, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Princess Celestia's Homebrew Corner
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2021-12-17, 02:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
You might be misremembering a factoid about one of the moons of Mars. I seem to remember one of those being very easy to escape from.
My Perpetually-Unfinished Homebrew: Tier-3 Class Suite, Homestuck Races for Pathfinder, Homestuck Races for 5e, Psionic Class Redux
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2021-12-17, 03:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Because I only remember basic physics? Newton's Laws are essentially what we're discussing when the subject is using a projectile weapon as propulsion, anyway. The force of shooting a bullet applies an equal but opposite force on the person shooting it, right? But it's likely not enough force, as I already pointed out, and it seems like you agreed with me...
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2021-12-17, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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2021-12-17, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Overlooked this part. If you know the muzzle velocity and the ratio between the mass of the shooter and the mass of the bullet, then as long as the ratio between the masses is time-invariant you don't need to know anything specific about the forces or accelerations involved and you don't need to evaluate any integrals the hard way even if you for some reason want to approach this using reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum.
vshooter = ∫ashooter * dt = ∫Fshooter / mshooter * dt
Fbullet = Fshooter from Newton's Third Law, and mshooter = (1/k) * mbullet where k is some constant, so vshooter can be rewritten as:
vshooter = ∫k * Fbullet / mbullet * dt
Since k is a constant, it can be pulled out of the integral, giving:
vshooter = k *∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt
∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt is the muzzle velocity of the gun, which we know, so:
vshooter = k * vmuzzle
Incidentally, since we're probably going to assume masses are constant for this problem:
vshooter = ∫Fshooter / mshooter * dt = (1 / mshooter) * ∫Fshooter * dt
vbullet = ∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt = (1 / mbullet) * ∫Fbullet * dt
Giving:
mshooter * vshooter = ∫Fshooter * dt
mbullet * vbullet = ∫Fbullet * dt
Fshooter = Fbullet, so:
mshooter * vshooter = ∫Fbullet * dt
Therefore:
mshooter * vshooter = mbullet * vbullet
or if you prefer:
pshooter = pbullet
Reaction forces is the less direct way of applying Conservation of Momentum to this problem.
(All of this post assumes an initial velocity of 0. A nonzero initial velocity would change some details, but the general idea is the same.)Last edited by Aeson; 2021-12-17 at 10:43 AM.
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2021-12-17, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
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2021-12-17, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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2021-12-17, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
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2021-12-17, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
But I wrote them as scalars, and when I applied Newton's Third Law I applied it in a way that is only true for scalar quantities, which I would think should make it clear to anyone who isn't looking to score cheap points in an internet discussion that I'm dealing with scalar quantities.
Fshooter = -Fbullet, pshooter = -pbullet, vshooter = -mbullet * vbullet / mshooter, but Fshooter = Fbullet, pshooter = pbullet, and vshooter = mbullet * vbullet / mshooter.
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2021-12-17, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2021-12-18, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Last edited by Radar; 2021-12-18 at 07:35 AM.
In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.
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2021-12-19, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2021-12-19, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-12-20, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Silly Tedd, programmers always judge each other's variable name choices.
Also you better have properly commented that code, child!Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-12-20 at 01:23 AM.
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2021-12-20, 04:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
So what variable naming sin did Tedd commit?
The obfuscated? x1, x2, x3, etc. or some variant of that scheme where all variable names eventually just blur together.
The dummy? foo, bar, baz, etc.
The redundant? myInt, myFloat, myChar, etc. where the name tells you what any IDE would also tell you, but nothing about the variable's actual role.
Or perhaps it was something more like naming the variables after characters from some anime.Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2021-12-20, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18
Most likely some incoherent variable names without particular convention. I would guess the whole code was written without any beforehand planning as it happens with a lot of non-professional programmers, so during revisions some functions and variables needed to be added, some were deleted and the whole thing is probably a patchwork of pieces written at different times with different level of expertise (Tedd learning as he went into the project) that somehow works together.
In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.