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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    So ... Edward is having trouble understanding/accepting Tedd == over the span of whole comic.
    And now Arthur has to take on the role of being diplomatic/ambassadorial with Tedd. He doesn't seem to be doing badly, which is interesting but not really surprising. No surprising because Tedd is very open to being listened to. Lucky Tedd. Some of us learned not to volunteer info because it would be used against us.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    To answer the question of "what good is a compass on the Moon?", one needs to ask if the situation also involves time travel. Apparently, two billion years ago, it would have worked just fine.
    Funny thing about the team-building exercise this is referencing. I actually did this one in school, and remember one thing very clearly - on the list was two handguns, which everyone discarded as useless. Turned out the "correct" answer was to use them as a method of propulsion, the math of which never seemed right to me.


    The exercise is a "palette swap" of one involving a plane crash in the desert, where both the compass and the pistols made more sense - the compass, while working, is useless because trying to walk your way out is suicide; while the pistols are a very useful signalling device.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Funny thing about the team-building exercise this is referencing. I actually did this one in school, and remember one thing very clearly - on the list was two handguns, which everyone discarded as useless. Turned out the "correct" answer was to use them as a method of propulsion, the math of which never seemed right to me.


    The exercise is a "palette swap" of one involving a plane crash in the desert, where both the compass and the pistols made more sense - the compass, while working, is useless because trying to walk your way out is suicide; while the pistols are a very useful signalling device.
    I had the "stranded in the Canadian wilderness" variant in high school.

    My group selected the map—if we could find a landmark we might be able to set up camp, the tent for shelter, and the bottle of high proof whiskey for the sake of 1: Something flammable in case we had trouble starting a fire with scavenged and 2: disinfecting water if we can't filter or boil it.

    And then one of the asshats I was paired up with threw in "staying sane" with the whiskey(IE, drinking it straight to get drunk) after we agreed not too and we lost points. (It may have been on purpose... I'd turned him in after catching him dealing drugs out of his locker in middle school.)

    I don't remember what the "right" things were, but we also lost points for taking the map becuase "they're dangerous, they'll make you think you can navigate to civilization" when... Our entire reason was "if we can find a landmark we can set up a camp somewhere relatively safe." Just ignored our reasoning, the maser list said the map was bad so choosing the map is wrong.

    Oh. There was a mirror we were supposed to use to shine a light at passing airplanes coming to rescue us... But the way it was worded suggested that we'd be able to scavenge from the environment so I figured we'd use a ... fire for that.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    I'm not really sure what the point of the third panel is. Grace isn't being cuter than usual, is she?
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I'm not really sure what the point of the third panel is. Grace isn't being cuter than usual, is she?
    Clearly, a woman who clearly states how she intends her words is a gem rarer than any precious materila, and thus needs to be cherished.

    Bit of a weird/stereotypical premise, but I can see where it stems from.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Taevyr View Post
    Clearly, a woman who clearly states how she intends her words is a gem rarer than any precious materila, and thus needs to be cherished.

    Bit of a weird/stereotypical premise, but I can see where it stems from.
    I find it more annoying than anything, really.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    The exercise is a "palette swap" of one involving a plane crash in the desert, where both the compass and the pistols made more sense - the compass, while working, is useless because trying to walk your way out is suicide; while the pistols are a very useful signalling device.
    This was the one we had, as well as one about being stuck in the desert after your Jeep broke down. Neither had any firearms for us, although I think the jungle one had a flare gun?

    Again, both times a backpack was one of the options, but we couldn't use it to carry more stuff. This infuriates me to this day.

    Both times the trick was 'stay with the vehicle', which to me isn't really fitting with the wording of the premise. Next time I'm putting the bloody plane on my list.

    Also surely if you're already on the moon it's more efficient to just walk around instead of firing a pistol to move?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Using a pistol to propel yourself around the moon is dumb. Best case scenario, you can jump a bit more which is completely unnecessary on a surface with no cliffs or holes. Worst case scenario, you propel yourself out of the moon's gravity well and launch yourself into space.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Even with the lowered gravity of the moon, I can't imagine the energy used to propel a tiny bullet would be of any use in reverse-propelling a full sized human.

    I mean, it's simple physics.

    F = m*a

    The mass of a person is much MUCH higher than the mass of a bullet. At any given force F, the counter-force will have a much MUCH smaller effect on the person holding the gun than it does on the bullet.

    It's feasible in zero gravity, where there are essentially no other strong forces at work on you. But on the moon? I'm doubtful.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2021-12-16 at 03:07 PM.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Even with the lowered gravity of the moon, I can't imagine the energy used to propel a tiny bullet would be of any use in reverse-propelling a full sized human.

    I mean, it's simple physics.

    F = m*a

    The mass of a person is much MUCH higher than the mass of a bullet. At any given force F, the counter-force will have a much MUCH smaller effect on the person holding the gun than it does on the bullet.

    It's feasible in zero gravity, where there are essentially no other strong forces at work on you. But on the moon? I'm doubtful.
    Don't forget about the a in that equation. Bullets may not have a lot of mass, but they have a lot of acceleration. Incidentally, you can achieve escape velocity on the moon with a bicycle.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Yeah but since it isn't speed squared like with kinetic energy that still isn't enough to amount to much. A pistol bullet weighs about 1/10000th of an adult human. So if it goes 1000km/h that is just enough for you to go 0.1 km/h.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    Yeah but since it isn't speed squared like with kinetic energy that still isn't enough to amount to much. A pistol bullet weighs about 1/10000th of an adult human. So if it goes 1000km/h that is just enough for you to go 0.1 km/h.
    Man, I didn't think the math was that bad. Yeah, looks like a pistol will do f*** all.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    I think we actually should be using the kinetic energy equation. Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final velocity. And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of the bullet inside the barrel.

    No, wait. The equation full of v's and m's seemed tempting, since v's and m's are what we know, but I'm struggling to find a way to meaningfully correlate the kinetic energy of the bullet with the kinetic energy of the shooter.
    Last edited by Maat Mons; 2021-12-16 at 10:50 PM.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Even with the lowered gravity of the moon, I can't imagine the energy used to propel a tiny bullet would be of any use in reverse-propelling a full sized human.

    I mean, it's simple physics.

    F = m*a

    The mass of a person is much MUCH higher than the mass of a bullet. At any given force F, the counter-force will have a much MUCH smaller effect on the person holding the gun than it does on the bullet.

    It's feasible in zero gravity, where there are essentially no other strong forces at work on you. But on the moon? I'm doubtful.
    If it's speed you're looking for, why would you use reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum to do this? mme * v0, me + mbullet * v0, bullet = mme * v1, me + mbullet * v1, bullet; assuming that I and the bullet are initially stationary in my inertial frame of reference, mme * v1, me = mbullet * v1, bullet, or v1, me = (mbullet / mme) * v1, bullet.

    Incidentally, you can achieve escape velocity on the moon with a bicycle.
    Escape velocity from the surface of the moon is about 2.4 km/s, which on Earth is about Mach 7. The idea that you could achieve this speed under your own power on a bicycle seems somewhat suspect.

    Incidentally, in order to achieve this velocity by firing a single bullet from a pistol with a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s, a person would need to fire a bullet about 2.5 times as massive as they themselves are. Somehow, I don't believe that accidentally achieving escape velocity from the lunar surface by firing a pistol - or virtually any infantry weapon, for that matter - at the ground is a serious concern; more realistic concerns might include accidentally shooting yourself in the foot, damaging your spacesuit with a richochet or with fragments launched from the lunar surface by the impact of the bullet, or being knocked off-balance by the recoil of the pistol due to inexperience with firearms in lower-than-Earth-gravity environments.

    I think we actually should be using the kinetic energy equation. Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final velocity. And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of the bullet inside the barrel.
    While Energy is conserved, Kinetic Energy is not. If you wanted to do this, you would have to look at a total energy balance, which means you'd need to understand something about the losses in the system and possibly also potential energy. This, in my opinion, would be a more difficult way to approach the problem than either reaction forces or conservation of momentum given that we know nothing about the system other than that there is a human and a pistol.

    Conservation of Energy would however be a relatively easy way to estimate how high up a single pistol shot could propel a person once you've computed how fast the person is moving immediately after firing the pistol, as the height above the lunar surface at which your lunar gravitational potential energy equals the kinetic energy that you'd have immediately after firing the pistol directly downwards while standing on the lunar surface is the height at which you stop ascending (assuming, at any rate, that your lunar gravitational potential energy is referenced to the lunar surface).
    Last edited by Aeson; 2021-12-16 at 10:58 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Escape velocity from the surface of the moon is about 2.4 km/s, which on Earth is about Mach 7. The idea that you could achieve this speed under your own power on a bicycle seems somewhat suspect.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    You might be misremembering a factoid about one of the moons of Mars. I seem to remember one of those being very easy to escape from.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    If it's speed you're looking for, why would you use reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum to do this?
    Because I only remember basic physics? Newton's Laws are essentially what we're discussing when the subject is using a projectile weapon as propulsion, anyway. The force of shooting a bullet applies an equal but opposite force on the person shooting it, right? But it's likely not enough force, as I already pointed out, and it seems like you agreed with me...
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Escape velocity from the surface of the moon is about 2.4 km/s, which on Earth is about Mach 7. The idea that you could achieve this speed under your own power on a bicycle seems somewhat suspect.
    I wonder, could you reach such speeds by jumping, if you're a doctor that trained with Batman?
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    [Otherwise we'll need to integrate the acceleration to find our final velocity. And it's much easier to find info on the muzzle velocity of guns that it is to find anything about the instantaneous acceleration of the bullet inside the barrel.
    Overlooked this part. If you know the muzzle velocity and the ratio between the mass of the shooter and the mass of the bullet, then as long as the ratio between the masses is time-invariant you don't need to know anything specific about the forces or accelerations involved and you don't need to evaluate any integrals the hard way even if you for some reason want to approach this using reaction forces rather than conservation of momentum.

    vshooter = ∫ashooter * dt = ∫Fshooter / mshooter * dt

    Fbullet = Fshooter from Newton's Third Law, and mshooter = (1/k) * mbullet where k is some constant, so vshooter can be rewritten as:
    vshooter = ∫k * Fbullet / mbullet * dt

    Since k is a constant, it can be pulled out of the integral, giving:
    vshooter = k *∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt

    ∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt is the muzzle velocity of the gun, which we know, so:

    vshooter = k * vmuzzle


    Incidentally, since we're probably going to assume masses are constant for this problem:
    vshooter = ∫Fshooter / mshooter * dt = (1 / mshooter) * ∫Fshooter * dt
    vbullet = ∫Fbullet / mbullet * dt = (1 / mbullet) * ∫Fbullet * dt

    Giving:
    mshooter * vshooter = ∫Fshooter * dt
    mbullet * vbullet = ∫Fbullet * dt

    Fshooter = Fbullet, so:
    mshooter * vshooter = ∫Fbullet * dt

    Therefore:
    mshooter * vshooter = mbullet * vbullet
    or if you prefer:
    pshooter = pbullet

    Reaction forces is the less direct way of applying Conservation of Momentum to this problem.

    (All of this post assumes an initial velocity of 0. A nonzero initial velocity would change some details, but the general idea is the same.)
    Last edited by Aeson; 2021-12-17 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    ...
    Therefore:
    mshooter * vshooter = mbullet * vbullet
    or if you prefer:
    pshooter = pbullet

    Reaction forces is the complicated way of applying Conservation of Momentum to this problem.
    Well done, except that these are vectors, and that the forces, velocities, and momenta are in opposite directions. So, for example, the final conclusion would be:
    pshooter = -pbullet

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    Well done, except that these are vectors, and that the forces, velocities, and momenta are in opposite directions. So, for example, the final conclusion would be:
    pshooter = -pbullet
    The reason that you believe I was working with vector quantities is...? I wrote everything as scalars, so I only care about the magnitudes; direction is irrelevant.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    The reason that you believe I was working with vector quantities is...? I wrote everything as scalars, so I only care about the magnitudes; direction is irrelevant.
    Because forces, velocities, and momenta are vectors. Since you asked.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    Because forces, velocities, and momenta are vectors. Since you asked.
    But I wrote them as scalars, and when I applied Newton's Third Law I applied it in a way that is only true for scalar quantities, which I would think should make it clear to anyone who isn't looking to score cheap points in an internet discussion that I'm dealing with scalar quantities.

    Fshooter = -Fbullet, pshooter = -pbullet, vshooter = -mbullet * vbullet / mshooter, but Fshooter = Fbullet, pshooter = pbullet, and vshooter = mbullet * vbullet / mshooter.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I wonder, could you reach such speeds by jumping, if you're a doctor that trained with Batman?
    You could, but you would need a draculabot to surf safely down the surface of the Earth if you don't want to be incinerated upon reentry.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I wonder, could you reach such speeds by jumping, if you're a doctor that trained with Batman?
    If you get some useful tips from Bruce Lee, than it might be possible indeed. Being a ninja also helps.
    Last edited by Radar; 2021-12-18 at 07:35 AM.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    If you get some useful tips from Bruce Lee, than it might be possible indeed. Being a ninja also helps.
    I liked how the jump meant a considerable improvement, but left room for even greater achievements: Doc had jumped from the moon, but Bruce managed to reach escape velocity in a much more difficult jump from planet Earth.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Now I wonder about Tedd's choice of variable names. Personally, I can be pretty random.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Silly Tedd, programmers always judge each other's variable name choices.

    Also you better have properly commented that code, child!
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-12-20 at 01:23 AM.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    So what variable naming sin did Tedd commit?

    The obfuscated? x1, x2, x3, etc. or some variant of that scheme where all variable names eventually just blur together.
    The dummy? foo, bar, baz, etc.
    The redundant? myInt, myFloat, myChar, etc. where the name tells you what any IDE would also tell you, but nothing about the variable's actual role.


    Or perhaps it was something more like naming the variables after characters from some anime.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 19 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    So what variable naming sin did Tedd commit?

    The obfuscated? x1, x2, x3, etc. or some variant of that scheme where all variable names eventually just blur together.
    The dummy? foo, bar, baz, etc.
    The redundant? myInt, myFloat, myChar, etc. where the name tells you what any IDE would also tell you, but nothing about the variable's actual role.


    Or perhaps it was something more like naming the variables after characters from some anime.
    Most likely some incoherent variable names without particular convention. I would guess the whole code was written without any beforehand planning as it happens with a lot of non-professional programmers, so during revisions some functions and variables needed to be added, some were deleted and the whole thing is probably a patchwork of pieces written at different times with different level of expertise (Tedd learning as he went into the project) that somehow works together.
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