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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Ah yes, I forgot about that. So, either Raven’s genes kept a strong influence however many generations on, or Susans dad is more closely related to Raven than the timing of Raven’s firstborn would seem to suggest. That could put us back to my guess about quarter-immortals lining a long time. Or maybe he was turned to stone in a museum in Britain. It seems unlikely he’d be an aberration. Too many people in Moperville who would have caught on to that.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    No matter how you slice it, Susan doesn't make sense. Raven was in Russia before he came to the US. How did a random descendant of his show up in the town that he ... oh, wait. Moperville. Maybe people w/ strong magic genes tend to live in Moperville (or other magic hotspots) even when they don't know they have magic. They might just feel that the air agrees with them.

    Not an explanation, but it does sharply reduce the number of likely scenarios to something plausible, if only just.
    Last edited by Windscion; 2022-12-02 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Windscion View Post
    Raven was in Russia.
    No, he wasn't. That's part of the reason he doesn't like Arthur.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah, also even if Noriko isn't the nicest person, I think that she'd have told Raven he isn't actually infertile.

    Also, also, the fact that he can make good guesses at who Diane's mother and Susan's ancestor are based on nothing but Diane's age and Susan being "a distant descendant" despite them being one-night stands (and his own words on the matter) strongly suggests that he hasn't had many sexual encounters in his centuries of life.
    Or his immortality comes with an extremely good memory, and even his one-night stands are just That Important to him.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Windscion View Post
    Raven was in Russia before he came to the US.
    No.

    His dad's name, "Blaike", doesn't sound Russian at all. It sounds more like a Ye Olde Nonstandard Spellinge for Blake which is specifically British.

    The countries that Pandora list here have Germany as the easternmost he went. He denies being (or having gone throug) Russia here.

    Also, his name is Raven. And he said the only thing he lied about was his age. Now we know Pandora chose the name Raven because of he bird, but if that had been in a non-English-speaking country, it would have therefore been a different name. Like "Rabe" in German or "Corbeau" in French. So if his official name is indeed "Adrian Raven" and not "Adrien Corbeau" or something like that, then between that and his dad's name, we can safely conclude he's most likely English-born. Then he traveled a bit in Western Europe, but not further East than Germany, probably cycling between a few countries so that he would be long forgotten by the time he went back in there, and eventually moved to the USA at some point within the last three centuries. Perhaps he also traveled back and forth across the Atlantic a few times.
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    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    "Half a millenium [...] hundred generations"
    That... that's some pretty early pregnancies you got there, chief.

    But also, yeah, if the descendant of elves had a noticeable increase in lifespans, I think it would have been noticed.
    Look, it was late at night, my mental maths ability is off.

    Although never underestimate how many generations uryuom eggs allow you to speed throw.


    Also, I thought Raven was Blaike's surname, it's part of the reason I've been using Adrian's forename. He was also an adventurer, which means that Adrian wasn't necessarily in his homeland when he and Pandora met, started wrestling, and had Adrian.

    Considering the three countries listed, it's possible that Raven spent most of his time in whichever country was the local superpower, before moving to the US with the fall of the British Empire (good riddance). But I also agree that Blaike's name just rings English to me, I've been picturing him as either the first or second son of some minor baron. Although in that case any claim Adrian could make to the title, if he wouldn't just give it up entirely, would likely be disputed by other family members.

    Another solution, of course, is that Adrian could have Anglicised his surname. I'm just not certain that Pandora would.
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    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
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    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I mean, from a strictly biological perspective the fact that they have eternal youth would correlate to a low sex drive and rate of fertility.
    But are they immortal or just very long lived?

    The longer an organism lives and remains in it's prime, the less need there is to reproduce.
    The only thing that matters (as far as biology is concerned) is that enough of the offspring reaches adulthood tonreplace the previous generation.

    And we honestly have no idea how fertile Immortals are. It's entirely possible that all elves are the product of either particularly promiscuous immortals or else an immortal directly trying to conceive a child.
    So?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I assumed it was less about having a low sex drive, and more about not wanting to form close emotional bonds with he's going to outlive many times over. Really, one night stands make the most sense if you don't want to wind up carrying a torch for several hundred years.
    Thinking about it "there aren't many times it could have happened without me knowing" implies that keeping in touch with the women he has sex with is the norm for him, rather than one-night stands.

    As for number of partners, I don't think we know where Adrian ranks on the Kinsey scale. He's clearly had at least two encounters with women, but those two encounters could be anywhere from 100% to... some very small number % of his experiences.
    That's an excellent point I hadn't considered.

    Actually, since half-immortals have a very low fertility rate, if Adrian has had exactly two encounters with women, and also exactly two children, he's quite the statistical anomaly.
    Which is what made me wonder whether "the low fertility rate" is actually true.
    Maybe Diane just looks a lot like her mother, and Susan somehow looks a lot like her unspecified distant ancestor.
    Considering that they look a lot like Raven, I'm not sure what that would imply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Windscion View Post
    No matter how you slice it, Susan doesn't make sense. Raven was in Russia before he came to the US. How did a random descendant of his show up in the town that he ... oh, wait. Moperville. Maybe people w/ strong magic genes tend to live in Moperville (or other magic hotspots) even when they don't know they have magic. They might just feel that the air agrees with them.

    Not an explanation, but it does sharply reduce the number of likely scenarios to something plausible, if only just.
    Raven figures his firstborn happened in his actual twenties. Literal centuries ago. Unless that line has had only one surviving child per generation, he's bound to have a great many descendants all over Europe and the West at large. There's been quite the population boom since his twenties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Or his immortality comes with an extremely good memory, and even his one-night stands are just That Important to him.
    If he can pinpoint which one Susan is descended from based on "a long time ago" that strongly suggests he's only had a handful in his life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    Also, his name is Raven. And he said the only thing he lied about was his age. Now we know Pandora chose the name Raven because of he bird, but if that had been in a non-English-speaking country, it would have therefore been a different name. Like "Rabe" in German or "Corbeau" in French. So if his official name is indeed "Adrian Raven" and not "Adrien Corbeau" or something like that, then between that and his dad's name, we can safely conclude he's most likely English-born.
    Having to change your name to get citizenship, because an immigration official can't be bothered or after getting through to better fit in is quite common for immigrants. I wouldn't call that lying.

    Edit: I agree that Adrian is English, though, I think he identifies as such in an FAQ (and complains about having to drink tea).
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2022-12-03 at 07:19 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    So... This is two people that Diane has made cry by acknowledging them as family.
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  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    So... This is two people that Diane has made cry by acknowledging them as family.
    At least it's with happiness.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    Then he traveled a bit in Western Europe, but not further East than Germany, probably cycling between a few countries so that he would be long forgotten by the time he went back in there, and eventually moved to the USA at some point within the last three centuries. Perhaps he also traveled back and forth across the Atlantic a few times.
    The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was founded in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries". What probably happened was that he went to the founding of the country, served in it in ww1, and then found out about ww2 and bailed to the Americas.

    Maybe he served in it after, but unlikely. I doubt the story would have him serve hitler unless it was going for a real dark twist, but that doesn't leave him much time to stay there for long enough for it to be something Box would mention and then also live in the USA for a few decades.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Epinephrine_Syn View Post
    The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was founded in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries". What probably happened was that he went to the founding of the country, served in it in ww1, and then found out about ww2 and bailed to the Americas.

    Maybe he served in it after, but unlikely. I doubt the story would have him serve hitler unless it was going for a real dark twist, but that doesn't leave him much time to stay there for long enough for it to be something Box would mention and then also live in the USA for a few decades.
    Raven didn't serve at all.

    Something something immortal law prevents elves from serving in the military.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Epinephrine_Syn View Post
    The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was founded in 1871.
    Pandora was having an emotionally-charged discussion with a her son. I don't think we should expect strict historical accuracy from her.
    Besides, it's not like Germany came out of nowhere. If he'd been a subject of Prussia or Bayern it wouldn't be absurd for him to feel "German" today.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Epinephrine_Syn View Post
    The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was founded in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries".
    America was founded in 1776 but people started immigrating like two centuries earlier. And Prussia was around in the 1300s and is basically proto-Germany, so Pandora could easily have been talking about that. For all we know, Pandora may have meant fighting for Germany to become a united Germany rather than the hodgepodge of bickering states that it was.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Pandora was having an emotionally-charged discussion with a her son. I don't think we should expect strict historical accuracy from her.
    Besides, it's not like Germany came out of nowhere. If he'd been a subject of Prussia or Bayern it wouldn't be absurd for him to feel "German" today.
    For all the numerous states that currently roughly coalesced into Germany (also Austria), there was a lot of common connection right from the Middle Ages because of the Holy Roman Empire that actually lasted till XIX century and was succeeded by the German Confederation. So I'd say Germany did mean something for more than 150 years at least to some degree.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Germany as a word has been around in English since the XIV century, and the equivalent Latin at the very least since Tacitus wrote a book about it. There however is a pretty large divide between the Roman concept and the Medieval concept, and there also is a divide between the current Germany and the various political entities that preceded it (Germanic tribes and the Roman Empire - Charlemagne and his Eastern heirs - the German-speaking parts of the Holy Roman Empire - the German states and lands - the current unified Germany).

    If anything, mentioning modern Germany could be a way to show Raven how stateless he is, if he lived under the monarch of a long-defunct German state.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    I don't really like Ellen's decision in the recent NP to change the plot of the adventure to make the PC's wild theory correct. I think that, especially in a mystery adventure, the PCs should be allowed to be wrong.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    I don't really like Ellen's decision in the recent NP to change the plot of the adventure to make the PC's wild theory correct. I think that, especially in a mystery adventure, the PCs should be allowed to be wrong.
    She already changed the plot to be about the mayor's chicken instead of the mayor's daughter, and frankly, the idea the players came up with is far more interesting than the original plot, from the sounds of Ellen's brief summary in her head.

    I completely disagree with you here. You should reward players for coming up with fun ideas.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    I don't really like Ellen's decision in the recent NP to change the plot of the adventure to make the PC's wild theory correct. I think that, especially in a mystery adventure, the PCs should be allowed to be wrong.
    It really sounds like the original adventure was a basic kidnapping plot, so, clearly letting the players run with their idea is the better choice here. Plus, George will probably stop her if she starts listening too them too much.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    She already changed the plot to be about the mayor's chicken instead of the mayor's daughter,
    It's one thing for a DM to alter a pre-written adventure before starting the game; it's another for the DM to change what has happened after play has started. In general, I don't think a DM should retcon things unless the game is hopelessly snarled and the players agree it's needed to set things straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    and frankly, the idea the players came up with is far more interesting than the original plot, from the sounds of Ellen's brief summary in her head.
    So what if it's not interesting? It's not true. There's nothing wrong with an improvisational game where things that happened in the past aren't fixed until they're established, but that's not the sort of game they're playing now. In a game with a pre-established narrative, it is dishonest of the DM to change things mid-play. In an investigation in particular, making whatever theory the PCs decide to investigate be correct is not at all in keeping with the nature of the game. How many mystery stories have you encountered where the first theory the detective comes up with is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    I completely disagree with you here. You should reward players for coming up with fun ideas.
    When said ideas are compatible with the rest of the game, yes. But something being fun is not in and of itself enough reason for it to be true.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    How many mystery stories have you encountered where the first theory the detective comes up with is correct?l
    Very few, although this is also like theory #3 (#1 being 'a wizard did it' and #2 being a looser version of this theory). It's also notable that their theory being correct doesn't mean there can't be more twists and turns later.

    But here's the thing, there was never actually the intention to run the adventure as written. I don't think daughter->chicken was really pre-planned, and Ellen was fully intending to change the story on a whim (she explicitly says 'minor changes', but if this forwards them to the next encounter it's probably minor).

    It'll probably turn out Mark was bribed or threatened or something by Jazterian the Dark (or whatever the official NPC is called), or wanted to get back at the mayor for some reason and helped Triselda the Grim. Maybe this all comes down to the mayor banning the major festival of Orange Wednesday (where the temple puts on two plays but only charges you for one).

    If this doesn't end with the party burning the mayor's mansion to the ground and adopting the chicken the story just won't be believable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    So what if it's not interesting? It's not true.
    None of this is true. They are playing a ****ing game.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    There's nothing wrong with an improvisational game where things that happened in the past aren't fixed until they're established, but that's not the sort of game they're playing now.
    Yeah it is. Ellen already said as much.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2022-12-10 at 07:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Epinephrine_Syn View Post
    The inclusion of Germany specifically implies that he was in Germany way, way more recently than three hundred years ago. Germany was founded in 1871. It's barely been around for 150 years, half of "three centuries".
    The founding in 1871 was just making official something that had been de facto for a while.

    We can go back to Charlemagne, and the division of his empire between his heirs, with a long story of fragmentation and reunification, usually involving successions for the former and wars for the latter. But mostly the Caroline empire got split into three part, a Western part that would become France quite quickly and go under a millennia of expansion, consolidation, and centralization; while the Eastern part that would become Germany and the Southern part that would become Italy underwent further fragmentation and decentralization.
    Proto-Germany declared itself to be the Holy Roman Empire (despite, as a famous quip said, not being an empire, not being Roman, and certainly not being holy) which was actually some sort of loose confederation of separate fiefdoms with dukes and princes electing one of them to be their emperor, a function that was mostly ceremonial as the emperor did not have much authority over his vassals. Meanwhile in Italy you had several independent city states, several that were republics instead of feudal, a couple of which (Genoa and Venice) were great powers for a while, and the Papal state (that today is reduced to the so-called Vatican City).
    Germany and Italy both got reunited as single nation-states in the 19th century, but that's a political distinction more than a cultural or geographical one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epinephrine_Syn View Post
    What probably happened was that he went to the founding of the country, served in it in ww1, and then found out about ww2 and bailed to the Americas.

    Maybe he served in it after, but unlikely. I doubt the story would have him serve hitler unless it was going for a real dark twist, but that doesn't leave him much time to stay there for long enough for it to be something Box would mention and then also live in the USA for a few decades.
    Germany in WW1 was not much better than Germany in WW2; the ideas that coalesced into Nazi ideology were already largely present in 1914, cf. Septemberprogramm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    How many mystery stories have you encountered where the first theory the detective comes up with is correct?
    This is a key feature of Columbo, which is one of the best detective series ever made.

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Okay, so... there is blatantly no one else in that hallway. Either Noah turned around or...

    Place your bets: Zeus or Pandora?
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Okay, so... there is blatantly no one else in that hallway. Either Noah turned around or...

    Place your bets: Zeus or Pandora?
    My bet would be on Noah. Bigger question is, what happened to Diane. My theory is that she awakened some time ago (maybe due to the magic mirror, but it is not as important) and now unconsciously used some new spell allowing her to chase Noah. Her suddenly fainting looks very similar to what happened to Elliot after he wrongly thought to be fully healed from a burn out.
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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Okay, so... there is blatantly no one else in that hallway. Either Noah turned around or...

    Place your bets: Zeus or Pandora?
    Wouldn't catching someone who's falling over be a violation of immortal law?
    I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

  27. - Top - End - #927
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Wouldn't catching someone who's falling over be a violation of immortal law?
    "We're allowed to guide and empower, I simply guided them to their feet!" – Nauda, a.k.a. the Uprighter, who's still figuring things out after their past reset
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  28. - Top - End - #928
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Windscion's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    The "D-Dont worry" suggests someone who is rattled. I'm thinking because they care about Diane, which limits it somewhat.
    So, Lucy, Noah, Rhoda, Adrian Raven? OTOH, Grace can catch her w/o being next to her and might be rattled. (She doesn't need to be in 3-tail form to use her TK, tho it helps.)
    If it is Rhoda, I expect she resorted to magical shenanigans, since she is smol.

  29. - Top - End - #929
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    Maat Mons's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Diane appears to be standing just outside a restroom, so the mystery person could have just conveniently come out at exactly the right time.

    Diane's had at least one class since she chased Noah through the halls, so a delayed reaction to the exertion seems unlikely.

  30. - Top - End - #930
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    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

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    Default Re: El Goonish Shive VII: The Comic is 20 Years Old, but the Cast is Still 18

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Wouldn't catching someone who's falling over be a violation of immortal law?
    If hugging someone isn't a violation of immortal law, I don't see why catching someone who's falling over should be.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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