A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 58 of 58
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Skip the heart, spinal tap.
    Before or after the puppet show?
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OracleofWuffing's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Before or after the puppet show?
    Eh, I'm feeling generous, why not both?

    I'm wondering if it absolutely has to involve the heart, if the way to address the dilution concern would involve the injection occurring on the exterior of the heart, instead. So the substance would "attach" to the heart and work its way to the inside over time. There's probably all sorts of goo that would rub around the area, but it'd be nothing compared to blood constantly going in and out that could wash the initial dose away to who-knows-where.

    I don't know if injection was the right word there, because it would definitely be getting inside the body, but it's not going into the heart. Think like in Trauma Center, where you cut open a guy and start slathering green stuff everywhere to save a patient's life, except I don't think this necessarily requires surgery.

    A compromise to choosing between circulatory and nervous system might be an ocular injection, all sorts of blood vessels and nerves there. Is it any more comfortable? *Shrug* I just wanna see more colors.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    It's a hypothetical miracle substance, I could imagine the blood cells it alters would be capable of carrying ribosomes, an increased quantity of hemoglobin, and be overall better than the original blood cells. They're doing fantastic stuff with phlebtonium these days.


    This might be cheating. It's okay to tell me if I'm cheating.

    Skip the heart, spinal tap. Straight into the spinal canal. I understand the procedure will be more painful by many orders of magnitude and is possibly riskier, but neurons fire faster than blood flows, and the nervous system hits about as many locations as the circulatory system with smaller roads. Instead of starting with improved resistance to heart disease while it gradually spreads through your body, you start getting super senses- both are benefits, but I find the latter more practical for mad overlords. Logically, super senses would also carry the fact that you would be more sensitive to pain, but since this is a hypothetical miracle substance I'm going to say part of the enhancement is that it doesn't do that because.
    I don't think injecting someone's blood into your spine in order to get the stuff in their blood into your body is sane...

    Like, what happens if you inject blood straight into your spine?

    Like I said, the substance is like a virus. And a particularly virulent one. It just infects whatever is conveniently nearby and spreads from there, which means that whatever tissues it contacts first are going to be the ones producing more of it(assuming that they have the equipment to manufacture it. There'd be benefits to improved red blood cells and platelets, but for spreading the substance they'd be wasted) It would spread initially to other cells via extracellular fluid, by one way or another it would eventually end up in the bloodstream and/or lymphy.

    Which means that if you inject it into the veins, not only is it going to be washed around through the blood, but it's also going to be spreading, cell by cell, through the tissues that make up the circulatory system and into the tissues that make direct contact with the circulatory system, because the venous tissue is going to be the most readily abundant thing for it to infect
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I don't think injecting someone's blood into your spine in order to get the stuff in their blood into your body is sane...

    Like, what happens if you inject blood straight into your spine?

    Like I said, the substance is like a virus. And a particularly virulent one. It just infects whatever is conveniently nearby and spreads from there, which means that whatever tissues it contacts first are going to be the ones producing more of it(assuming that they have the equipment to manufacture it. There'd be benefits to improved red blood cells and platelets, but for spreading the substance they'd be wasted) It would spread initially to other cells via extracellular fluid, by one way or another it would eventually end up in the bloodstream and/or lymphy.

    Which means that if you inject it into the veins, not only is it going to be washed around through the blood, but it's also going to be spreading, cell by cell, through the tissues that make up the circulatory system and into the tissues that make direct contact with the circulatory system, because the venous tissue is going to be the most readily abundant thing for it to infect
    OK, you're really making this far more complicated than it actually is. So, by the properties you want this substance to have, an intravenous injection will just have the substance absorb into the vein's interior wall. But it will then replicate rapidly, which will put the replicated substance into the heart, because that's what veins do.

    You said you want it in the heart for best distribution. You were told having it in a vein is fine (and preferred). You said you were concerned about being "lopsided". You were told that this would be negligible, and even if it weren't, it's just as bad having the heart be lopsided. You were told getting a nearly direct injection would be difficult. You were told it would not save any time compared to the effects you purport. Tou were told all this in response to the way you described how your substance works, and.... You've just decided that none of that applies.

    It seems more like you just want it in the heart immediately regardless, and are just trying to find validation for that. And if that's the case, then screw it, dude. Just cut to the chase and have an intracardiac injection. There's no actual reason this is needed, as several people have explained to you, but if you want to have it in the heart regardless of biology, then just have it in the heart. Its fine. It's what they did in The Rock. Easy peasy. Hell, even if you don't want to stick a needle into the heart proper, then several people have also told you about how to get as close as possible already, but that still hasn't solved the issue somehow.

    I really think you're needlessly overcomplicating this.

    Also, did you mean to say "virulent"? This substance is bad for you? I chose to interpret your use as "it spread incredibly quickly", but virulent means "especially harmful". I don't know if you intended your super soldier serum to be harmful instead of helpful, but I figured I'd check.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    I have misunderstood the meaning of the word virulent.

    Edit: Also, I don't think I ever said that it spread rapidly.

    Like, once the substance has infected the vein tissue, it's no longer in the bloodstream. It's only getting back into the bloodstream once enough cells are altered and, thus producing more of the substance, that an apreciable amount of the substance is being leached back into the blood stream via extracellular fluid.

    Like, I'm not trying to make this overcomplicated. I'm basing this substance off of things like the Super Soldier Serum or the Infinity Formula Work—you put a little bit into someone and it replicates within that person's cells and spreads from there to affect the whole body.

    The only difference is... Realistically it's not going to have an instantaneous effect on someone, it's going to take time to spread to every major organ, let alone every cell. especially if you only have a small amount of it to start with. Hours. Days. weeks. You're not gonna jab someone and they're gonna be pulling back-to-back decathlons within the day.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2022-01-15 at 01:43 AM.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    I feel like using the word "realistically" applied to comic book science is a fundamental mistake. It's written by people who aren't doctors and who don't know what they're talking about. You're right, it's going to take some time, but injection location is unlikely to meaningfully affect that, unless you do something silly like stab a giant needle into someone's heart and accidentally kill them.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I feel like using the word "realistically" applied to comic book science is a fundamental mistake. It's written by people who aren't doctors and who don't know what they're talking about. You're right, it's going to take some time, but injection location is unlikely to meaningfully affect that, unless you do something silly like stab a giant needle into someone's heart and accidentally kill them.
    Assuming that it takes time for it to spread to every cell in the body, something that goes cell by cell is almost certainly going to have some effect on the injection site and nearby/connected tissues before it has spread to every other part of the body.

    My logic is that the heart is part of the center mass and, one way or another, once the heart has been affected it's going to spread more or less evenly out from there. So you don't get a situation where one arm is noticeably more muscular than the other.

    But at the same time, it's my understanding that you need a big needle to inject something straight into the heart and you only have a very small amount of the substance.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2022-01-15 at 07:12 PM.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Assuming that it takes time for it to spread to every cell in the body, something that goes cell by cell is almost certainly going to have some effect on the injection site and nearby/connected tissues before it has spread to every other part of the body.
    Human gestation is about 40 weeks. A newborn infant has 1,250,000,000,000 cells. Each cell much be built. If we say each cell takes, oh, a second, then human gestation should take.... 40,000 years.

    Medical biology does not work the way you want it to work for this. Its a magic serum. At some point its going to break down and not work well with the real world. This is that point. Again, the best advice is to stop worrying about realism and just go the way you want, because realistically, it does not matter where the injection is. Go with either direct intracardial injection or use one of the suggestions from other people in here about near-heaet injections.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-01-15 at 07:56 PM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Look, I know. I have my answer.

    At this point, I'm just clarifying what I originally meant and why I'm focused on the heart since I have consistently failed to explain that clearly. Which is a recurring problem I have.

    Also, if we're comparing it to gestation time, comparing the number of cells in a newborn to those in an adult then that's about 23 years for the substance to fully spread and rebuild every cell.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Look, I know. I have my answer.

    At this point, I'm just clarifying what I originally meant and why I'm focused on the heart since I have consistently failed to explain that clearly. Which is a recurring problem I have.

    Also, if we're comparing it to gestation time, comparing the number of cells in a newborn to those in an adult then that's about 23 years for the substance to fully spread and rebuild every cell.
    More like 7 years, if it only is introduced in new cells and isn't simply affecting the existing cells. Ignoring the whole "pediatrics is a whole different ballgame to adult practice" and just focusing entirely on cell count/regeneration. The infant thing was just a handy way to demonstrate living tissue's incredibly rapid rates of production at the cellular level, really.

    But yeah. Don't go too far into the weeds on it and you should be fine.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    I could have sworn that I'd made it clear that the substance was targetting and infecting every cell. Which includes preexisting cells.

    In fact, unless middle school high school, and college were invovled in a conspiracy to obscure the truth from me, everything I know about the process of cellular reproduction indicates that the substance would have to be present in preexisting cells for it to be present in new cells.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OracleofWuffing's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I don't think injecting someone's blood into your spine in order to get the stuff in their blood into your body is sane...
    Well, it comes with the neighborhood: Injecting someone else's blood into any specific organ in your body in order to obtain super powers is generally not a wise idea. That said, it's not unheard of to inject blood into the spinal column in response to a spinal tap, to patch up the hole you made and prevent leaks. Admittedly, I didn't know about that procedure at the time, and it's usually the same person's blood.

    But, er, as a point of information, the heart isn't the center mass of human bodies? It's gonna vary quite a bit between genders and body builds, but it's usually around the hip bones.

    And, well, since we brought gestation up, it came to mind that you could inject a fetus with this stuff- smaller size and fewer cells to take over- and you'll get a body that produces the substance faster than putting it into an adult. If you really want to go to an extreme, centrifuge-inate the substance out of the blood sample you have, inject it into an egg cell, and IVF the egg. Bonus, you'll have an increased chance of twins! Then, you can use the childrens' blood, in higher quantities, to more quickly treat adults. This still does not reach my top 40 worst ideas I've ever had.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    And, well, since we brought gestation up, it came to mind that you could inject a fetus with this stuff- smaller size and fewer cells to take over- and you'll get a body that produces the substance faster than putting it into an adult. If you really want to go to an extreme, centrifuge-inate the substance out of the blood sample you have, inject it into an egg cell, and IVF the egg. Bonus, you'll have an increased chance of twins! Then, you can use the childrens' blood, in higher quantities, to more quickly treat adults. This still does not reach my top 40 worst ideas I've ever had.
    I typically find it easier to centrifuge the fetus by taking the mother and putting her on a merry-go-round and then spinning it really fast.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Assuming that it takes time for it to spread to every cell in the body, something that goes cell by cell is almost certainly going to have some effect on the injection site and nearby/connected tissues before it has spread to every other part of the body.
    Assuming your substance sits quite happily in the plasma and it goes systemic via the circulatory system. The issue is, your substance doesn't happily sit in the plasma - by one of your requirements (it doesn't harm the host cell), it can't even propagate out of the cell it infects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    My logic is that the heart is part of the center mass and, one way or another, once the heart has been affected it's going to spread more or less evenly out from there. So you don't get a situation where one arm is noticeably more muscular than the other.
    Depending on which side of the heart you inject it, you either end up with super muscular heart and lungs, or lopsided development of the heart and high blood pressure issues on the artery side of the circulatory system, focused around the heart, until the rest of the body catches up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    But at the same time, it's my understanding that you need a big needle to inject something straight into the heart and you only have a very small amount of the substance.
    Ah, is this where the confusion is coming from?. Injecting something requires a syringe - a syringe typically consists of two functional parts, the needle and the syringe body (which normally includes the plunger and seal).

    Spoiler: Syringe Components
    Show


    The needle is normally interchangeable between syringe bodies and yes, you do need a long sturdy needle to puncture through the chest and inject directly into the heart. You don't need a big syringe body.

    For an intracardiac injection, you need around a 4" length needle to penetrate deep enough to the heart and the largest needle typically used for this is an 18 gauge, which has an external diameter of 1.27mm, a needle wall thickness of 0.216mm which gives an internal diameter of 0.838 mm.

    Calculating all that up:
    • 0.838 mm / 2 = 0.419 mm radius
    • 0.419 mm^2 X pi = 0.5515 mm2 area of the internal cross section
    • 0.5515 mm2 X (25.4 mm x 4 inches) = 56.0 mm3 or 56 µL internal volume of the needle


    That 56 µL dead volume is not going to be an issue if you have 10 mL (10,000 µL) to work with. Even with 1 mL of the available solution of injection, that's still at most, a 5.6% loss to the needle.

    You're going to lose more solution simply priming the syringe (pushing all the air out of the syringe body and needle prior to injection) than to the needle or syringe body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I typically find it easier to centrifuge the fetus by taking the mother and putting her on a merry-go-round and then spinning it really fast.
    Depending on the point of pregnancy that the centrifugation happens, you may need anything from a catcher's mitt to a large towel, to catch the foetus too.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2022-01-16 at 05:41 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    England. Ish.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I typically find it easier to centrifuge the fetus by taking the mother and putting her on a merry-go-round and then spinning it really fast.
    Prior art, I'm afraid...

    (That, or you are George Blonsky and congratulations on the 1999 Ig).
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

    "The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud

    "Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    I have, to date, been snubbed by the Ig Nobel community, which I find completely unacceptable.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Excession's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    If you want to get this substance added to boss cells, the heart doesn't strike me as the best option. The heart moves blood around sure, but it isn't involved is making any part of the blood. Also repurposing some of the heart muscle to do something else, even briefly, could have unpleasant side effects, such as death.

    The bone marrow might be a better option. As a bonus needing to inject into someone's pelvic bone is way more complex and hardcore.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    If you want to get this substance added to boss cells, the heart doesn't strike me as the best option. The heart moves blood around sure, but it isn't involved is making any part of the blood. Also repurposing some of the heart muscle to do something else, even briefly, could have unpleasant side effects, such as death.

    The bone marrow might be a better option. As a bonus needing to inject into someone's pelvic bone is way more complex and hardcore.
    1: If it's in the none marrow, or anywhere else in the body, it's going to end up in the heart eventually so if it taking over the heart cells and making the heart cells make more of it was fatal the person is dead regardless of where it goes in.

    2: Heart cells, like most cells, are capable of producing proteins. In fact, heart cells do produce proteins, some of which are only found in the heart. Since those functions are what viruses take over when making a host cell manufacture more of itself, I assumed that's what would happen if a heart cell were to be taken over by the substance.

    I'm not sure hat would be fatal.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    1: If it's in the none marrow, or anywhere else in the body, it's going to end up in the heart eventually so if it taking over the heart cells and making the heart cells make more of it was fatal the person is dead regardless of where it goes in.

    2: Heart cells, like most cells, are capable of producing proteins. In fact, heart cells do produce proteins, some of which are only found in the heart. Since those functions are what viruses take over when making a host cell manufacture more of itself, I assumed that's what would happen if a heart cell were to be taken over by the substance.

    I'm not sure hat would be fatal.
    As a general rule, we need our cells to do what they do. Repurposing them to do something else means they arent doing it anymore, so we arent getting what we need from it anymore. On a small scale, this is fine, or at least survivable. On a large enough scale, it will kill us.

    What qualifies as which scale depends on which cells are being disrupted.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2017

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Since we're talking super serum and medical facilities that can handle a direct cardiac injection, the risk of death should be minimal.

    However; since this thread is turning into raining on Rater's parade, a couple more thoughts that might be relevant if he wants to hew closer to realism;

    First, heart cells are not known for rapidly reproducing. (Muscle cells in general don't reproduce much.) Since we can likely assume that new cells formed from serum affected cells will also be super cells, complete with producing more of the super substance, you'd likely be better off aiming for tissue that reproduces a lot. Unfortunately my own medical knowledge is not enough to know where would be a good target.

    Second, the heart is a fairly differentiated organ. If you assume that the serum has its initial effects felt most strongly around the injection point, dumping it into a random place in the heart makes it very likely that one of the chambers will absorb most of it. One chamber in the pump being exceptionally strong sounds potentially problematic. Again my own medical knowledge is limited, but some largely undifferentiated tissue where some clump being a little more effective than its neighboring clump would likely be a better target for the initial injection.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Second, the heart is a fairly differentiated organ. If you assume that the serum has its initial effects felt most strongly around the injection point, dumping it into a random place in the heart makes it very likely that one of the chambers will absorb most of it. One chamber in the pump being exceptionally strong sounds potentially problematic. Again my own medical knowledge is limited, but some largely undifferentiated tissue where some clump being a little more effective than its neighboring clump would likely be a better target for the initial injection.
    Off hand, one chamber being disproportionately powerful is one of the ways you get a heart attack.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    ITs not that the initial injection site will have a particularly strong effect, it's that the initial injection site is going to be the first place affected and will likely receive the full effect of the serum before other parts of the body do.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    The bone marrow might be a better option. As a bonus needing to inject into someone's pelvic bone is way more complex and hardcore.
    It does mean that the immune system and RBCs are the first system affected, which would propogate to the rest of the body in fairly short order. Uncontrolled growth of a tissue is essentially just cancer, but if you've disable the immune system to this particular form of cancer, you've got got some time for the substance to infect the rest of the body.

    That said, if the substance doesn't display any cell markers, the immune system isn't going to be effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    However; since this thread is turning into raining on Rater's parade, a couple more thoughts that might be relevant if he wants to hew closer to realism;
    I'm trying not to rain on his parade too much, but he wants technical detail for a very technical subject; however whenever somebody requests clarification, he just re-iterates his original brief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    ITs not that the initial injection site will have a particularly strong effect, it's that the initial injection site is going to be the first place affected and will likely receive the full effect of the serum before other parts of the body do.
    You still haven't stated how long it takes for the serum to have 'a full effect'.

    Heck, you still haven't stated how the substance gets out of the host cell, other than 'it works like a virus'. Viruses hijack the cell's protein synthesis machinery (ribosomes and Golgi apparatus), causing it to produce endless copies of the virus until the cell bursts from the sheer number. The new virus particles then go on to inject the surrounding cells and the process repeats.

    This is incompatible with your other requirement that 'the host cell is unharmed'. It also means that some cells are effectively 'dead ends' for the virus as they don't have ribosomes , so the virus gets stuck inside them (RBCs are the main ones), unless the substance magically generates ribsomes out of nanites or something. This makes blood particularly useless as a vector unless the body digest the blood or wait until it's identified as hostile by the immune system and it gets lysed (assuming transplant rejection and immune response).

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    You still haven't stated how long it takes for the serum to have 'a full effect'.
    How long would it take for substance that propagates as viruses do to spread to every cell in the body, and for each cell to be completly rebuilt? Based on Peelee's suggested comparison to gestation, about 23 years.

    Or seven based on the assumption that new cells will automatically be affected... Which I don't think scans but... Lets go with that. Seven years for the sunstance to infect and rebuild 100% of cells and bodily structures.

    Heck, you still haven't stated how the substance gets out of the host cell, other than 'it works like a virus'. Viruses hijack the cell's protein synthesis machinery (ribosomes and Golgi apparatus), causing it to produce endless copies of the virus until the cell bursts from the sheer number. The new virus particles then go on to inject the surrounding cells and the process repeats.
    The same way it got in.

    Not every virus destroys the host cell. Most retroviruses, for example, do not destroy their host cell. They rewrite the host cell's genetic material by mixing their own with it, making the host cell begin producing more copies of the retrovirus instead of or in addition to what the cell normally produces without destroying the host cell.

    There's even some evidence that genes that are part of the human genome are the result of retroviral infections that inserted viral DNA into the reproductive cells of an ancestor species.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Does it need to get into the chambers of the heart or the heart muscle itself? That would influence what veins you would target.
    "Sure, Philosophers can say 'But how do we know the sun will rise tomorrow?' to which the correct response is 'Shut up nerd! Stop playing 3D chess against your own brain and find something real to worry about'."

    -ContraPoints

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    How long would it take for substance that propagates as viruses do to spread to every cell in the body, and for each cell to be completly rebuilt? Based on Peelee's suggested comparison to gestation, about 23 years.

    Or seven based on the assumption that new cells will automatically be affected... Which I don't think scans but... Lets go with that. Seven years for the sunstance to infect and rebuild 100% of cells and bodily structures.
    In that case, having an enlarged lopsided heart over that length of time will not be an issue, since the rest of the heart will catch up in terms of development by the time the pressure differential will be an issue.

    The human body is very adaptable - if people can live for years with a hole in their heart chambers, then having one side contracting slightly more strongly than the side won't be an issue.

    There's a vast difference between long term biological changes and upgrades for super soldier programmes, like the SPARTAN-II process from Halo or Space Marine from 40K (years and in stages), to what is essentially magic (Captain America in the Marvel movie occurring over minute), or super cancer/out of control rampant growth (Mr X from Resident Evil).

    While I'd argue that your process would fall towards the higher end of the process, I'm also highly dubious of such a low replication rate resulting in a successful super soldier - at that low a level, the cells containing the substance are likely to disappear through normal cell death, resulting the infection not taking hold. This is assuming that the host body doesn't exhibit an immune response to the substance.

    Depending on how aggressively replicating and infectious you have the material, along with any other special measures you take to support the development (diet, training, corrective surgery/injections to correct imbalances) you're going to have your super soldier in far less time than that.

    Take SARS-CoV-2 for example: it takes about 10 minutes for it to infect a cell and about 10 hrs before it starts shedding new virons after it hits an internal threshold of 1x103 viron units. The average yield per cell is between 10-100 new infectious units within 36-48 hrs of the initial cell infections. (link 1, link 2)
    Assuming that the super soldier serum (SSS) is the same size and weight per unit as SARS-CoV-2 and reaches the same peak blood density of ~1x107 units per mL of blood, there's (1x107 x 10) 1x108 SSS particles in that initial 10 mL injection

    Since we have exponential growth, the number of infected cells will exceed the estimated total number of cells in the body (30 trillion or 3x1013) in about 2.5 cycles or between 90-120 hrs (3.75 - 5 days).

    That rate of change will also be indicated by the host needing massive amounts of protein, carbohydrates, water and whatever other raw biological materials it needs. Assuming that the skeleton is also upgraded, that includes calcium and other dietary supplements.

    Since the rate of change is still measured in days, there's a lag period for uninfected body tissues to catch up - assuming the material is injected via the circulatory system (a vein will do), it'll go systemic within a few minutes, so there's no issue with uncontrolled growth and imbalanced development. Whether the individual's body can withstand the strain of what the SSS is doing however, is a different question; if I were doing it, I'd put them under for the whole period and monitor them in hospital, hooked up to IV nutrient solutions, so you can modify and adjust for their system's needs in moments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The same way it got in.

    Not every virus destroys the host cell. Most retroviruses, for example, do not destroy their host cell. They rewrite the host cell's genetic material by mixing their own with it, making the host cell begin producing more copies of the retrovirus instead of or in addition to what the cell normally produces without destroying the host cell.

    There's even some evidence that genes that are part of the human genome are the result of retroviral infections that inserted viral DNA into the reproductive cells of an ancestor species.
    By 'genes', you mean introns which have been primarily regarded as 'filler' or 'junk' DNA to pad out the chromosome. The evidence suggests the hypothesis that these retroviruses inserted themselves into our genome, then got 'stuck' in a non-coding section or in an incorrect reading frame. The human genome does not code for virus particles.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2022-01-23 at 08:53 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I'm trying not to rain on his parade too much, but he wants technical detail for a very technical subject; however whenever somebody requests clarification, he just re-iterates his original brief.
    Exactly. There's a fundamental disconnect between what Rater wants and how these things actually work, and I've said several times it may be best to ignore strict biology and stick to the broad strokes to gloss over that so he still has the story he wants.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-01-23 at 09:40 AM.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Rater202's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Where I am

    Default Re: Getting a substance into the heart

    Okay, Peelee, you don't have to keep saying that. I get it.

    But people keep questioning things I said earlier in the thread, so at this point I'm just trying to explain what I meant when I said those things, becuase I am absolutly terrible at expressing my thoughts clearly and often need to say the same thing in several different ways before people understand what I actually meant... Or at least that's what it seems like from my perspective.
    I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.

    Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
    Awesome Avatar by Emperor Ing
    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •