OOTS #1250 - The Discussion Thread

[Ekul]

Haley made a slight but understandable negotiating misstep. Rather than simply calling her bluff, what would probably have been a stronger stance was to lay out the terms that the Order considers a victory, and the stakes they are up against:

• The Gods are far more dangerous and desperate than Xykon himself.
• Destroying the gate and letting it fall into the wrong hands are both likely to end the world for the same reasons.
• They are already willing to negotiate with Redcloak if the opportunity arises. Violence is not the only choice
• The order does not need Sereni alive for their plans.

I think Haley could have probably made the case that Sereni's position was not beyond negotiation period, that her life could be used to trade for something, just not for disarmament, as the stakes are too high for that.

[Peelee]

Maybe that is why I want that storyline to be observed at a later date... So will Vaarsuvius get a chance to shine?

Going to revisit a quote from the last page here.

I don't need to force her growth in that direction because it's OK to not be a leader.

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly, at a certain point, your argument seems to me like "Celia should simply not have to bear responsibility for her own actions," which is the entire fundamental point I disagree with. Was Haley supposed to physically restrain her before they went to sleep just to be sure? Celia knew what she was doing went against Haley's instructions and wishes, or she wouldn't have snuck off in the middle of the night. She simply thought she knew better than Haley, despite being smart enough to know how little she knows about the adventuring world.

More like Haley's failure to take command is a much bigger mistake than people give it credit for. She was a crappy leader and everything that happened resulted from that flaw.

If physically restraining Celia is what it takes, then yes, that's what she should've done. More realistically, she should've gotten Celia removed from the party as soon as she learned she was a pacifist. Banish her back to the Plane of Air, send her ahead to Cliffport, whatever. At that moment Celia went from asset to liability.

Celia is to blame for making those mistakes, but she should have never been allowed in that situation in the first place. It is stupid and unfair, but that's honestly more how the world works. People do stupid **** and because you didn't actively stop them you are to blame for it.

[gnomish dwelf]

Going to revisit a quote from the last page here.

yeah, its ok not to be a leader, neutrons dont follow nor are they followed and they, like protons, which are followed, have a value of 1, but I want to see Vaarsuvius prove that his intlligence goes byond spellcasting... Let him be a lovecraftian hero for one.

[Shoelessgdowar]

For what it’s worth I don’t think she’s really to blame for Roy’s death; needing to summon her for that very specific reason is somewhat of an outlier even by adventurer standards.

And is also another example of “wow, it’s a really good thing that OotS isn’t based on a real game” if you ask me but that’s a slightly different question.

That specific reason? No, you are right, if that was the only reason it failed.
But Roy couldn't summon her no matter the reason, so since she was supposed to be his "In Case of Emergencies" extraplanar contact, she is responsible because she made herself unable to be summoned ever by him. As it is, she only was summoned by dumb luck, and then she failed repeatedly in her duties to protect Haley and Belkar from various legal complications afterwards.

[Ruck]

More like Haley's failure to take command is a much bigger mistake than people give it credit for. She was a crappy leader and everything that happened resulted from that flaw.

If physically restraining Celia is what it takes, then yes, that's what she should've done. More realistically, she should've gotten Celia removed from the party as soon as she learned she was a pacifist. Banish her back to the Plane of Air, send her ahead to Cliffport, whatever. At that moment Celia went from asset to liability.

"Haley should have foreseen that her pacifist teammate would wander off into a very dangerous location despite being warned not to, and thus restrained her, which she would've accepted without resisting"-- that's your case, right? That makes sense to you as something that Haley should have foreseen and Celia would have found acceptable?

Did Haley even know she could dismiss Celia? Seems like Celia had to explain it to her.

Celia is to blame for making those mistakes, but she should have never been allowed in that situation in the first place. It is stupid and unfair, but that's honestly more how the world works. People do stupid **** and because you didn't actively stop them you are to blame for it.

There's an old saying about everything before the "but" that I think applies here. Frankly, I think you're infantilizing Celia by refusing to give her any responsibility for her own agency.

Whether it worked long term or not doesn't really matter; she would almost certainly be able to handle herself better when not engaging the half the Guild deep within their own city with no real reinforcements.

But it does matter, because it means the solution didn't even work. And, to reiterate, it also matters that the only reason they were able to negotiate at all was because they'd already gained the upper hand through violence and the threat of violence. I seriously doubt if Haley had shouted "Can't we just talk it out?" while Bozzok was sending waves of low-level guild members at her, it would have worked.

[DaOldeWolf]

Backing up to this, I don't disagree that everyone made mistakes. The difference is, Belkar suffered the consequences of his mistakes (the Mark of Justice, would've been kicked out if not for the memory charm); Haley suffered the consequences of hers (nearly getting killed; getting on the hook to fund the Thieves Guild); Celia suffered no consequences, and her solution to the problem was to pin the consequences entirely on Haley. That's where my problem is.

To paraphrase someone else, she never even acknowledged that she could, in fact, be wrong.

I didn't know that all side characters had to get consequences or be treated equally at all. Julio didn't pay for attacking back the defenses of Azure city and I doubt by this point that there will be any retribution. The woman with the headband (can't remember her name right now) was mauled by Xykon and she did nothing wrong. It might not have been a big pay off but she ends up realizing she is kinda useless and that she enabled many deaths. Haley also got to insult her scott free.

And you are making the whole deal for Haley sound worse than it actually was. She got to recover Roy's body. She went back against her word (she told Crystal the deal was off). She got to kill Crystal (twice I might add) while keeping her belongings to use as she saw fit and get Bozzok killed down the line. She even got to level up out of it. It might have pissed her off at the time but the whole thing didn't affect her negatively in the long run.

[The MunchKING]

I'm not faulting her for not knowing about the Cloister. But she was still in Azure City after several months later doing absolutely nothing to improve the Order's situation.

To be fair, while she wasn't helping the Order's situation, she was helping all the people of Azure City she could.

[Peelee]

But it does matter, because it means the solution didn't even work.

And they had knowledge that this would not work beforehand? You're saying the end result warrants not trying, despite that they wouldn't know the end result until, well, the end. It was a viable option. It was not an easy option, but it was certainly viable. Appealing to greed with a Thieve's Guild? It's a good bet.

To be fair, while she wasn't helping the Order's situation, she was helping all the people of Azure City she could.

I don't contest that at all. But since she was the Order's second in command and was supposed to be leading the Order in Roy's absence, not helping the Order at all for months on end with no plans to change anytime soon can certainly be classified as "not really doing her self-appointed job at all", and being a really bad leader for the Order.

[BriarHobbit]

I thought that Serini would have had one last trick. A potion of Glibness. A monster guarding the prisoners. That special item for a rainy day. It turns out that she had nothing and had no idea that she was going to swallowed by a shark. Good issue. Of course, Sunny is probably heading over at some point, but I don't expect a new fight when he arrives.

[Forum Explorer]

"Haley should have foreseen that her pacifist teammate would wander off into a very dangerous location despite being warned not to, and thus restrained her, which she would've accepted without resisting"-- that's your case, right? That makes sense to you as something that Haley should have foreseen and Celia would have found acceptable?

Did Haley even know she could dismiss Celia? Seems like Celia had to explain it to her.



There's an old saying about everything before the "but" that I think applies here. Frankly, I think you're infantilizing Celia by refusing to give her any responsibility for her own agency.

That's a little too specific. More like: "Haley should have used whatever measures necessary to ensure that Celia would follow orders, up to and including both physical force and threats there of." She failed to do so, and in fact encouraged the opposite by letting Belkar get away with doing whatever he wanted.

At that point, no. However she didn't ask, or try to remove Celia from the party at all. And she really should've.



I totally am. Because she's basically an infant. She's in the situation of being a fish out of water and much like a time traveler from the 1500's, she needs to be actively protected from the world she finds herself in. EDIT: I mean, for pete's sakes she didn't even know humans can't summon lightning from their fingers or sense magic innately. Nothing about her in any way suggests she was ready for an adventure. If anything, Haley was lucky Celia didn't mess up worse.

[The MunchKING]

I don't contest that at all. But since she was the Order's second in command and was supposed to be leading the Order in Roy's absence, not helping the Order at all for months on end with no plans to change anytime soon can certainly be classified as "not really doing her self-appointed job at all", and being a really bad leader for the Order.

Interestingly though, it seems like she basically slotted herself into another leadership role in the Resistance. Although that may have just been "Highest Leveled character that was trying to be Actively Good" playing its part instead.

I thought that Serini would have had one last trick. A potion of Glibness. A monster guarding the prisoners. That special item for a rainy day. It turns out that she had nothing and had no idea that she was going to swallowed by a shark.

She probably had loads of tricks in her cupboard or whatever, but the OOTS dropped themselves in right near where she needed to go, and now she doesn't have time to go get it.

[The MunchKING]

much like a time traveler from the 1500's, she needs to be actively protected from the world she finds herself in.

The hard part about dealing with someone from a wildly different environment is knowing what you need to explain to them that you take for granted. We see a lot of that between Haley and Celia.

That said "they murder people for the money they have" seems like a pretty clear explanation of the danger.

[Peelee]

Interestingly though, it seems like she basically slotted herself into another leadership role in the Resistance. Although that may have just been "Highest Leveled character that was trying to be Actively Good" playing its part instead.

It's an odd argument for me to make, because I don't want to minimize her role in organizing a resistance movement to help protect the survivors, but it's just that she had another job she was supposed to be doing at that time (which she herself set her up for) and she pretty much abandoned that job.

[Fyraltari]

Comic: Features Lien throwing a celestial shark at Serini.

Forum: Who's worst? Celia or Haley?

Sometimes, I am grateful for timezones...

[Forum Explorer]

That said "they murder people for the money they have" seems like a pretty clear explanation of the danger.

She needed to be way more specific. Maybe something like 'why would they ressurect Roy when they can kill you, take the money, and then sell your corpses to the local necromancer?' Something to really get the idea across of what sort of person lives there.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Because Haley refused to take charge. If Haley isn't going to exert her authority, why should Celia respect it?

"Well you were wrong, and now everything is messed up. You should have been more explicit."

Seriously, I'm not kidding when I say that is basically how it works so much of the time. Working in a zoo, I'm responsible for everything, no matter how stupid the people around me may be. If I have to physically restrain them, then by God, I'm expected to physically restrain them. The point is that Haley and Celia are not equals. Haley knows the situation better, is better equipped to deal with things, and is actively leading them around. She needed to be the one to step up and take charge, and her failure to do so is what allowed both Belkar and Celia to make their mistakes.


People should listen to the experts around them. But they don't. There is a variety of reasons on why they don't, but the fact is, they oh so often don't listen. They are exception, they are special, it's only a short time, I'll be safe. Whatever. People need to be actively managed to not make bad decisions.

Haley, listened to expert, left city to resurrect Roy.
Celia, didn't listen to expert, betrayed her friend and ally.
Belkar, listened to expert, was lied to and tricked by a decietful charlatan only wanting to get the planet destroyed.

Oh, I never said it would be easy. Just that it was an option.
Yeah, but her job as second in command of the Order of the Stick wasn't to organize an unrelated resistance group. It was to lead the Order of the Stick, which she completely abandoned. Heck, the only reason Belkar even stuck around was because for all they knew, he was tied to Roy's corpse with a mile-long metaphorical chain. Vaarsuvius, at the very least, attempted to find the missing members.

Yes, it was an.option, in the same sense letting the planet be destroyed and remade is an option... as in it is a ignorant, self-destructive, non-realistic option.

And they had knowledge that this would not work beforehand? You're saying the end result warrants not trying, despite that they wouldn't know the end result until, well, the end. It was a viable option. It was not an easy option, but it was certainly viable. Appealing to greed with a Thieve's Guild? It's a good bet.

I don't contest that at all. But since she was the Order's second in command and was supposed to be leading the Order in Roy's absence, not helping the Order at all for months on end with no plans to change anytime soon can certainly be classified as "not really doing her self-appointed job at all", and being a really bad leader for the Order.

Yes, Haley grew up with them, she knew Bozzok and Crystal were never going to let her live, knew Bozzok wanted her father dead, and knew that she just had to wait for them to betray her. She spared them to curry favor down the line with the Guild when Bozzok and Crystal violated the agreement, and because she knew having the rest of the Guild on her side had become a realistic option AFTER she and Belkar had mowed through them. Violence or avoidance were the only two options until Celia chose to turn her boyfriend into a bone Golem.

Let's be clear.
1) Haley is 2nd in Command of the Order of the Stick.
2) Celia is a never recruited, never hired, indebted to the Order side character who had not paid her debt, so she is legal bound to follow all instructions, commands, and duties designated by the Leader of the group or their Proxy.
3) Haley has no responsibility to care for, protect, aid, nor obey Celia.
4) Haley had:
a) Told Celia a dozen times that they weren't going to Greysky City
b) Because it is a bad idea
c) There would either not be any clerics there that could help or
d) There would not be any clerics that WOULD help
e) It is a dangerous place
f) People get killed there for having gold in their pockets
g) It is not Happy Fun Sunshine Land
h) They were headed to Cliffport
i) Haley had gone through a lot of trouble to find a secluded spot for the camp
5) If Celia is so big on the non-violent option of talking, she should have not put Haley in a situation where talking failed and Haley would have to resort to violence to keep Celia from sabotaging them.
6) Celia was the one who Forced Belkar and Haley to leave.
7) Haley was not actively stalling on reuniting the party, she was awaiting word from the Spellcasters, and in the meanwhile stopping Xykon and Redcloak from progressing by leading the Resistance.
8) Haley took responsibility for her own mistakes and cleaned up her own mess.
9) Belkar took partial responsibility for his actions and made decisions that partially cleaned up some of his own mess.
10) Celia took no responsibility for her own actions, left others to clean up her messes, blamed others for her own mistakes, and acted like she was right when she was way wrong.
11) Your position makes no sense, people aren't being charitable toward Haley nor Belkar, but you have acted like a Dectillion Dollar Make-A-Wish for Celia because Roy died due to Celia not showing up.

#CeliaKilledRoy #NoForgivenessForCelia #CeliaIsAMonster #CeliaBlows #CeliaIsAWindbag #SharksDontBiteCelia

[Ruck]

I didn't know that all side characters had to get consequences or be treated equally at all.

And I didn't know you'd take the least charitable interpretation of my post in order to snark on it, but here we are.

And they had knowledge that this would not work beforehand? You're saying the end result warrants not trying, despite that they wouldn't know the end result until, well, the end. It was a viable option. It was not an easy option, but it was certainly viable. Appealing to greed with a Thieve's Guild? It's a good bet.

I think the more relevant point is that relying on the trustworthiness of a Thieves Guild is a bad bet.

I also at this point can't help but notice that you have not addressed any of my points about the violence required to even get to the point of negotiations. That's pretty important to the whole "violence is not the answer" thesis.

I totally am. Because she's basically an infant.

Well, this is where we disagree.

She's in the situation of being a fish out of water and much like a time traveler from the 1500's, she needs to be actively protected from the world she finds herself in.

It's not like she got hungry and ate something nearby without knowing it was poisonous. She was told a place was extremely dangerous, by the person who knows best, and went behind her back to go there anyway. That takes some serious effort and agency and a willful disregard for the advice she's been given about "the world she finds herself in."

To use your zoo metaphor, it's not even like Haley said "Don't stick your hand in the cage" and Celia stuck her hand in the cage; it's like Haley said "Don't stick your hand in the cage because the lion will eat it," and then later Celia broke off from the tour and went and climbed into the cage.

The hard part about dealing with someone from a wildly different environment is knowing what you need to explain to them that you take for granted. We see a lot of that between Haley and Celia.

That said "they murder people for the money they have" seems like a pretty clear explanation of the danger.

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear too. The fundamental problem isn't that Celia is a fish out of water; it's that she knows she's a fish out of water but still thinks she knows best.

Comic: Features Lien throwing a celestial shark at Serini.

Forum: Who's worst? Celia or Haley?

Sometimes, I am grateful for timezones...

Sorry, I think this one's mostly on me. I could try posting about Mork and Mindy some more.

[gnomish dwelf]

So are we ready to draw some conclusions from what has been debated?

[Forum Explorer]

Well, this is where we disagree.



It's not like she got hungry and ate something nearby without knowing it was poisonous. She was told a place was extremely dangerous, by the person who knows best, and went behind her back to go there anyway. That takes some serious effort and agency and a willful disregard for the advice she's been given about "the world she finds herself in."

To use your zoo metaphor, it's not even like Haley said "Don't stick your hand in the cage" and Celia stuck her hand in the cage; it's like Haley said "Don't stick your hand in the cage because the lion will eat it," and then later Celia broke off from the tour and went and climbed into the cage.



Yeah, I think it's pretty clear too. The fundamental problem isn't that Celia is a fish out of water; it's that she knows she's a fish out of water but still thinks she knows best.

I suppose so.


That sort of thing has happened before, and guess who got in trouble? I'll give you a hint; it wasn't the person mauled by a lion.


See that's where I disagree. Celia might intellectually know she's a fish out of water, but she didn't accept it. She consistently behaved as if everyone around her was a peaceful and reasonable individual. You put it as 'thinks she knows best' but I think it's, well 'fish out of water.' She can't emotionally comprehend that people will try and kill her simply for being there, and that the law has about as much relevance as a tissue paper does when swimming.

[gnomish dwelf]

it should be taken into account that, besides fantasy, the genre of this webcomic is comedy, or parody, as such we can expect grotesquely inane behaviour from insanely clever characters.

[RMS Oceanic]

Haley made a slight but understandable negotiating misstep. Rather than simply calling her bluff, what would probably have been a stronger stance was to lay out the terms that the Order considers a victory, and the stakes they are up against:

• The Gods are far more dangerous and desperate than Xykon himself.
• Destroying the gate and letting it fall into the wrong hands are both likely to end the world for the same reasons.
• They are already willing to negotiate with Redcloak if the opportunity arises. Violence is not the only choice
• The order does not need Sereni alive for their plans.

I think Haley could have probably made the case that Sereni's position was not beyond negotiation period, that her life could be used to trade for something, just not for disarmament, as the stakes are too high for that.

I doubt Serini would listen to, in her possible words, "all that hooklah". She's still running around with the base assumption that Xykon cannot be defeated, so clever tactics mean squat.

[gnomish dwelf]

I think she is close to being worn down into submission

[Vikenlugaid]

Wait what? Lien could do that all this time?

Also, hilarious that discusion about bluffing between the two rogues XD. And also finally Haley says useful things.

Now, apparently this will be over soon, I think Razor will grab Serini (maybe Belkar will remember certain horse grabing him and make a funny comment) and I don't think Serini got more tricks.

[gnomish dwelf]

Wait what? Lien could do that all this time?

Also, hilarious that discusion about bluffing between the two rogues XD. And also finally Haley says useful things.

Now, apparently this will be over soon, I think Razor will grab Serini (maybe Belkar will remember certain horse grabing him and make a funny comment) and I don't think Serini got more tricks.

yeah, this e-plot should extend too much longer

[LookieLouE1707]

I wonder what Haley or Roy’s endgame here will be regarding the entire affair. She’s a Hero (tm) who has essentially declared war on you due to overwhelming fear of a common enemy. If she can’t be convinced to aid, or to qt least step away from the fight, and she’s too epic leveled to be captured effectively for long term, what options will the Order even have here?

On a meta level, I don’t think it would really fit the narrative if she joins the party in the actual fight against Team Xykon. This is Roy’s personal journey after all.

There's room in the narrative for a wise old mentor to get killed in this story, although i think she has to up her game a bit at some point to qualify for the wise old mentor role. I presume that'll be an easy switch to flip given her knowledge of the dungeon. But yeah, recruiting her is the only plan the order seems capable of even contemplating. Keeping the wildcard on the team for custodial purposes come hell or high water is how they handled belkar and durkula, after all.

[gnomish dwelf]

There's room in the nrrative for her to be a trickster mentor, no need to get her killed.

[Ruck]

That sort of thing has happened before, and guess who got in trouble? I'll give you a hint; it wasn't the person mauled by a lion.

I'll say that, as Korvin and possibly others have covered, the metaphor doesn't really work as a one-to-one, and my example here has more to do with the lengths Celia went to to disregard what she was told-- she didn't do this by accident or have a momentary lapse.

See that's where I disagree. Celia might intellectually know she's a fish out of water, but she didn't accept it. She consistently behaved as if everyone around her was a peaceful and reasonable individual. You put it as 'thinks she knows best' but I think it's, well 'fish out of water.' She can't emotionally comprehend that people will try and kill her simply for being there, and that the law has about as much relevance as a tissue paper does when swimming.

Well, I think I understand your position better, but I also feel like, at a certain point, there's only so much you can do to protect an adult from themselves. If telling Celia "a dozen times" how dangerous Greysky is-- especially as a comparison to their adventures so far, which have already been more dangerous and violent than Celia is used to-- isn't enough to stop her, I don't know what reasonably could be expected to be, and I do feel like the responsibility at that point falls on her for going anyway.

[gnomish dwelf]

Just to be clear... She is a sylph, she belongs to the air elemental plane... How come is she shielded from danger and violence? In 3rd edition the air elemental plane is an upper plane or what? And even upper planes get incursions from fiends...

[Bacon Elemental]

I never understood the arguing over Haley and Celia during Greysky city... I thought it was a pretty clearly showing their individual flaws in a dysfunctional group dynamic feeding into each other in a way that brings everyone to the brink of disaster.

Sure, Celia screws up bigtime by being impatient because she's desperate to see Roy alive again. Even the grubwiggler thing wouldn't have actually gone badly if she'd read the contract fully before zapping the lightning rod. (That's in my opinion the one utterly inexcusable screwup she does because unlike everything else that is actually her area of knowledge as a legal professional)

Haley screws up by refusing to trust her (But expecting trust in return). Sure that's somewhat justified because Haley is actually in her element here, but clear and open communication from the tactically-competent leader would have really helped. (See the argument where Celia's response to 'why didnt you tell me' was "I tried but you cut me off and I figured I'd better trust you now because things were getting dangerous again!)


The fight with the thieves guild was messy, but I'd like to point out that ignorantly betraying haley's principles all over the place or not, Celia was genuinely trying to help and it's not like Celia served a court baliff on her to comply with not killing Bozzok, her and Hank convinced her (Mostly by leaving out the part where haley owed something like five million GP, which is a term Hank honestly should have never trusted a third-party actor to negotiate for a rogue.)