Elan and bards

[gnomish dwelf]

Is every bard in the stickiverse as dumb and energetic as Elan? the musical emphasis on bards came with 3rd edition since bard kits in previous editions had non-musical talents (blades, loremasters, riddlemasters, heralds, shinobi bard, celtic bard) to complement a very heterogenous skill set, the bard handbook introduced music-related spells for bards but bards were generalists and could learn spells from any school... So I wonder if we will get to see bards whose intelligence matches that of Roy, V or Durkon and whose power isn't exclusively musical.

[brian 333]

Bardic connection to music goes back to AD&D. They were generalists because the bard spell list had not yet been generated and they borrowed from the druid and magic-user spell lists. The bard spell list is still a melange of general purpose utility spells. It is only bardic powers which once were associated with specific bardic magic musical instruments that are musical in nature.

[gnomish dwelf]

Bardic connection to music goes back to AD&D. They were generalists because the bard spell list had not yet been generated and they borrowed from the druid and magic-user spell lists. The bard spell list is still a melange of general purpose utility spells. It is only bardic powers which once were associated with specific bardic magic musical instruments that are musical in nature.

there was a connection, but it wasn't fetters and shackles like in later editions, the green book on the celts got a bard for whom music was not really important if I remember well, the bard handbook introduced a lot of audiotheurgic powers for bards but it also spread the concept to such kits as the blade, a weapon show specialist; the herald, a coat of arms and diplomatics checks specialist; the loremaster, a philologist/historian bard; the riddlemaster, a puzzle solving bard, etc. The ninja's handbook introduced the shinobi bard, a bard that was a better thief than other bards but still a bard... from 2nd edition there was potential to spread the bard class into other artist types, the specialization in music was just a particular route that wizards of the coast decided to take.

[Fyraltari]

You are aware that the word "bard" means "poet/singer/musician", right?

Seems like having them be about music was the intent from day one.

[gnomish dwelf]

You are aware that the word "bard" means "poet/singer/musician", right?

Seems like having them be about music was the intent from day one.

I am aware that historic bards were part poets, part singers, part musicians, but they were so much more, they were storytellers, they were lorekeepers, they were historians, they were journalists, they were propaganda mills, literature and music were intertwined back then

[The MunchKING]

I am aware that historic bards were part poets, part singers, part musicians, but they were so much more, they were storytellers, they were lorekeepers, they were historians, they were journalists, they were propaganda mills, literature and music were intertwined back then

That's what the Bardic Knowledge and ranks in Perform are for.

On a more serious note, they do get a LOT of skill points to cover all that non-music stuff they do as well. Elan tends to have less than average because of his low INT, but even he has enough extra for ranks in Perform (kazoo).

[gnomish dwelf]

That's what the Bardic Knowledge and ranks in Perform are for.

On a more serious note, they do get a LOT of skill points to cover all that non-music stuff they do as well. Elan tends to have less than average because of his low INT, but even he has enough extra for ranks in Perform (kazoo).

but I wish we see more effective effectual bards like those from 2nd edition, Elan is too ineffectual and a shame for the bard class, I only tolerate him because he helps rein in Haley

[MultitudeMan]

but I wish we see more effective effectual bards like those from 2nd edition, Elan is too ineffectual and a shame for the bard class, I only tolerate him because he helps rein in Haley

Belkar doesn't exactly showcase the best of rangerhood either. It might be a bit boring to only have competent and reasonable characters, and I'm pretty sure Rich has deliberately limited their presence in the story.

[gnomish dwelf]

Belkar doesn't exactly showcase the best of rangerhood either. It might be a bit boring to only have competent and reasonable characters, and I'm pretty sure Rich has deliberately limited their presence in the story.

But as a Shoeless god of war he is badass, and a satire on anyone who plays halfling barbarian (remember, he is a barbarian too)

[Precure]

Problem with Elan is, especially in the early strips, his talents as a bard is treated as a joke.

[Chronos]

You have it exactly backwards. 2nd edition bards were, in fact, shackled to music, and if you wanted something nonmusical, you needed to get a special kit for that. In 3rd edition, however, a core-rules bard, straight out of the box, has no need for music whatsoever for any of their abilities. Sure, they have a class feature called "Bardic Music", but you can use it just as well with oratory, or storytelling, or dance, or any other sort of performance.

[gnomish dwelf]

i know 2nd edition pretty well to be sure that in 2nd edition I do not have it backwards, but i may have it backwards in 3rd edition because I dont understand it much, making tieflings core races dissuades me. Elan's magic seem to be very musical, 3rd edition magic seems to be very musical, musical magic for bards in 3rd edition is a player's option, not something you ar forced into.

Problem with Elan is, especially in the early strips, his talents as a bard is treated as a joke.

exactly my point, and that is why we need a non-ineffectual bard to look up to, and nale isn't one, he isn't a bard, he is multiclass or something and he is ineffectual at the end.

[InvisibleBison]

making tieflings core races dissuades me.

Tieflings aren't a core race in 3rd edition.

[Kardwill]

3e bards are not completely about music, but more about inspiring your friends, dissuading your foes and being a charismatic jack-of-all-trades. I mean, even the "bardic music" ability is described as "song or poetry", and having a class named "bard" that doesn't have at least some interest in poetry would be weird.
Sure, there are a number of sound-based spells in their spell list, but they're options, since a bard only gets to choose a small selection of them. A 3e bard can be just as music-themed as you want him/her to be.

The same goes for the 5e bard : Sure, you start with a proficiency in some music instruments, but the "song of rest" ability is described as "soothing music or oration" so you can frame it as telling a story by the campfire or being a supportive friend, and most other abilities are about being a smooth talker and a leader, not a musician. And none of the colleges (the bard archetypes in 5e. You get to choose one at lv. 3 and it informs what kind of bard you are) are really about art or music. They're about knowledge, smooth talking, politics, illusions... The default college is "lore", which is about being a truth-seeker.

As for OotS... The thing is that bards are kinda uncommon. It's even worked into a joke, with Nale choosing a weird multiclass-frankenstein-monster-build because he thinks bards are sub-par. But keep in mind the only prominent one we see is Elan, so it gives a biased image. Other OotS bards are no more all naive goofballs than fighters are all int-based Roy-like tacticians. Other bards in the story (the thieves guild one, or the ones in Durkon's family) look competent and reliable enough, even if several of them have this tendency of thinking in term of "narrative sense" instead of "real life" (and, well, in the OotS world, they are right. The universe around them follows narrative structures, and they are the ones recognising and exploiting that fact).

[gnomish dwelf]

3e bards are not completely about music, but more about inspiring your friends, dissuading your foes and being a charismatic jack-of-all-trades. I mean, even the "bardic music" ability is described as "song or poetry", and having a class named "bard" that doesn't have at least some interest in poetry would be weird.
Sure, there are a number of sound-based spells in their spell list, but they're options, since a bard only gets to choose a small selection of them. A 3e bard can be just as music-themed as you want him/her to be.

This is enough of a hard sell, i am willing to admit I dont really know 3rd edition and later stuff, i am a 2nd edition grognard.

The same goes for the 5e bard : Sure, you start with a proficiency in some music instruments, but the "song of rest" ability is described as "soothing music or oration" so you can frame it as telling a story by the campfire or being a supportive friend, and most other abilities are about being a smooth talker and a leader, not a musician. And none of the colleges (the bard archetypes in 5e. You get to choose one at lv. 3 and it informs what kind of bard you are) are really about art or music. They're about knowledge, smooth talking, politics, illusions... The default college is "lore", which is about being a truth-seeker.

good for them then

As for OotS... The thing is that bards are kinda uncommon. It's even worked into a joke, with Nale choosing a weird multiclass-frankenstein-monster-build because he thinks bards are sub-par. But keep in mind the only prominent one we see is Elan, so it gives a biased image. Other OotS bards are no more all naive goofballs than fighters are all int-based Roy-like tacticians. Other bards in the story (the thieves guild one, or the ones in Durkon's family) look competent and reliable enough, even if several of them have this tendency of thinking in term of "narrative sense" instead of "real life" (and, well, in the OotS world, they are right. The universe around them follows narrative structures, and they are the ones recognising and exploiting that fact).

Thanks... i had forgotten about those... I will recheck them, you can call this thread the Bardic appreciation thread... I only want more bards, and I want them in a good highlight.

[Ruck]

we need a non-ineffectual bard to look up to

If you're looking for Rich to include a role-model example of every character class and type of monster you want to see in OOTS, you're going to be disappointed.

[Hurkyl]

The thing is that bards are kinda uncommon. It's even worked into a joke, with Nale choosing a weird multiclass-frankenstein-monster-build

"Bard = Fighter/Magic User/Thief" has been around forever. I had always assumed Nale's build was a direct reference to that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bardic connection to music goes back to AD&D. They were generalists because the bard spell list had not yet been generated and they borrowed from the druid and magic-user spell lists. The bard spell list is still a melange of general purpose utility spells. It is only bardic powers which once were associated with specific bardic magic musical instruments that are musical in nature.

Well, technically it went back to strat review when first introduced, but you are right on the spells and borrowing. The music was the big add.

... that is why we need a non-ineffectual bard to look up to, and nale isn't one, he isn't a bard, he is multiclass or something and he is ineffectual at the end.

No, we don't. If you need that, I suggest you start a web comic about one.

[AdAstra]

Elan is a good bard right now. He's developed as a character and while he's definitely still very ditzy he's still very capable and insightful. While he was clearly an ineffectual character before, that was an explicit flaw of his and something he improves greatly upon.

Plus, Elan's power is hardly restricted to music. He is very clearly understanding of stories and their structure, narratives which concretely shape the world he lives in and grants unique insight. In terms of genre awareness he's up there with the big hammy villains, and usually better about actually using it. In combat he's mostly telling puns to stab people with, and doing magic to support his allies. He becomes more narratively (and mechanically if looking at it through a game lens) effective and complex over time as his character does.

I'm actually kinda at a loss as to when he last sung a song. I feel like he had recently, but I can only specifically remember in the desert. (ah, okay, in the mountains, to himself for like two lines)

[Snails]

Problem with Elan is, especially in the early strips, his talents as a bard is treated as a joke.

And it would feel out of character for Elan to become too competent.

He has cast maybe 3 or spells of 4th level or higher in his whole career, when he can cast 5 of those big spells per day. And still have many many lowish levels spells to burn. Heck, a few of those spells are potentially Encounter Winning (e.g. Rainbow Pattern, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion, Dominate Person).

The issue here is definitely not the class itself.

[Riftwolf]

You have it exactly backwards. 2nd edition bards were, in fact, shackled to music, and if you wanted something nonmusical, you needed to get a special kit for that. In 3rd edition, however, a core-rules bard, straight out of the box, has no need for music whatsoever for any of their abilities. Sure, they have a class feature called "Bardic Music", but you can use it just as well with oratory, or storytelling, or dance, or any other sort of performance.

Sign outside the Royal Park
"Please do not perform the Dance of Freedom on the statuary. It is disrespectful and no one has any idea what to do if it works."

[Kardwill]

And it would feel out of character for Elan to become too competent.

Even at the begining, he was goofy/stupid, but not that imcompetent. Look at his abduction by the bandits : it's pretty clear he could have escaped any time he wanted to, but went along because no bard would miss an opportunity to be part of an abduction subplot, or to romance a bandit queen.

[Hurkyl]

Even at the begining, he was goofy/stupid, but not that imcompetent. Look at his abduction by the bandits : it's pretty clear he could have escaped any time he wanted to, but went along because no bard would miss an opportunity to be part of an abduction subplot, or to romance a bandit queen.

I think #0030 is a pretty good demonstration of how it works.

Elan's internal monologue: "Mind flayer? Illithid? Psionic Danger?"

What Elan decides to actually say: "Squid thingy!"

[Metastachydium]

Even at the begining, he was goofy/stupid, but not that imcompetent. Look at his abduction by the bandits : it's pretty clear he could have escaped any time he wanted to, but went along because no bard would miss an opportunity to be part of an abduction subplot, or to romance a bandit queen.

Feh, he just rolled higher than a 4 by accident.

I think #0030 is a pretty good demonstration of how it works.

Elan's internal monologue: "Mind flayer? Illithid? Psionic Danger?"

What Elan decides to actually say: "Squid thingy!"

Fun fact: even with an INT score of 3, a bard of Elan's (presumed) level in DCF can hit a 25 DC with a bardic knowledge check.

[snowblizz]

"Bard = Fighter/Magic User/Thief" has been around forever. I had always assumed Nale's build was a direct reference to that.

It is even called out as such. Subtly. When Elan asks if the fighter/rouge/sorcerer build isn't needlessly complicated. Nale is a bard in all but class name. An opposite and the same. Not a bard because his father wouldn't let him but he became one to spite his father anyway.

[LecternOfJasper]

And here I was thinking Tarquin counted as a bard. I suppose he wouldn't be, mechanically, as he never casts a spell and fights well, but he always stuck in my mind as a competent bard figure.

[wilphe]

Understanding how stories work and being able to perform stories are two different skillsets.

Albeit I don't know what the first would be in 3.5 terms, probably Knowledge: Tropes

[Mordar]

Understanding how stories work and being able to perform stories are two different skillsets.

Albeit I don't know what the first would be in 3.5 terms, probably Knowledge: Tropes

Should that be Knowledge: Narrative Theory or something similar? Knowledge: Tropes just reflects the skill of losing days of time to rabbit-hole websites.

- M