(3.5) Post your Half-Orc fix

[Ozreth]

Back at 3.5 after a very long hiatus. I never fixed the Half-Orc back in the day and now have a mind to. I've looked through a lot of old post around the internet but am wondering what people are doing now in 2023. My main concern is the racial modifiers, what I'm thinking right now is:

+2 STR, -2 INT or CHA
+2 on intimidate checks

Thinking I need one or two more things in there, something with flavor due to being a half orc whether its a feat, skill proficiencies or something else.

[Darg]

What about half-orc needs fixing? It's a really popular race because of its racial bonus to strength already. Does it really need to be better? Or do you mean to nerf it in some way?

[Biggus]

I don't change the ability modifiers, but I do give it some other things:

Counts as both human and orc for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc (half-elf likewise counts as both human and elf)

Treats the orc double axe as a martial weapon.

The fixes you suggest sound reasonable too.

What about half-orc needs fixing? It's a really popular race because of its racial bonus to strength already. Does it really need to be better? Or do you mean to nerf it in some way?

Are you kidding? Half-orc is the worst of the core races after half-elf, the Str bonus is all it has going for it. It's rarely used except in core-only game in my experience, and not that often even then.

[Morphic tide]

What about half-orc needs fixing? It's a really popular race because of its racial bonus to strength already. Does it really need to be better? Or do you mean to nerf it in some way?

People play Half-Orc for the dearth of other Strength races, not because it's actively good. And if you're willing to accept the lopsided penalty there's not much reason not to go full Orc for +4 Strength, unless you really want Spot/Listen or are relying on that Wisdom for prepared Divine casting or Manifesting.

[Emberlily]

outside of like, mechanical combat power, most of the other phb races offer either a bunch of flavourful niche bonuses or else a couple customizable ones. regardless of how powerful those are, they can often just be fun. and half-orc has none of that

[Maat Mons]

While you’re fixing half-orc, you may as well fix orc.

I’d say either give orc +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, like water orc gets, or +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha. I’d lean towards the latter, since a Wis penalty doesn’t seem fitting for a race that, thematically, should probably give a Survival Bonus. Then again, Handle Animal, Intimidate, and Knowledge (nature) also seem like things orcs would be good at, and those use Cha and Int. Though if anyone should be allowed to use Str for Intimidate, it should be orcs. Maybe that could be a racial ability.

You could also consider ripping ideas off from Pathfinder orcs and Pathfinder half-orcs.

[Ozreth]

I don't change the ability modifiers, but I do give it some other things:

Counts as both human and orc for the purposes of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc (half-elf likewise counts as both human and elf)

Treats the orc double axe as a martial weapon.

The fixes you suggest sound reasonable too.

This sounds good, I'm guessing you give the 1 extra feat at first level as well then too? What about skill points?

What does your half-elf look like?

[Prime32]

Back at 3.5 after a very long hiatus. I never fixed the Half-Orc back in the day and now have a mind to. I've looked through a lot of old post around the internet but am wondering what people are doing now in 2023. My main concern is the racial modifiers, what I'm thinking right now is:

+2 STR, -2 INT or CHA
+2 on intimidate checks

Thinking I need one or two more things in there, something with flavor due to being a half orc whether its a feat, skill proficiencies or something else.

Consider things like

• A natural weapon (slam, bite, etc.)
• +1 natural armor bonus
• Immunity to disease
• Acid resistance 5
• Light fortification due to your hybrid nature giving you weirdly-placed organs
• Scent
• Can use Str in place of Cha on Charisma-based skill checks (all of them, not just Intimidate).
• Iron Will as a bonus feat (not possessed by full-blooded orcs)
• Use Str in place of the normal ability score for determining the DCs of your damage-dealing spells, and/or add your Str modifier as a bonus to damage
• Born with instinctive knowledge of how to fight: can use combat maneuvers without provoking AoOs, and/or ignore ability score prereqs for fighter feats

[Morphic tide]

Hmm... To compare the Half-Elf to the Elf for a baseline:

+2 on the ability penalty, -2 on the ability bonus
Missing weapon proficiencies, specified as being in feat form
-1 on the bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot
Gain +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information
Favored Class: Any instead of only Wizard.

The existing Half-Orc only does the first, still retaining a +2 Strength and two -2s. The Orc Paragon has Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot, Survival, and Swim as class skills, while the Eye of Gruumsh also brings Ride into the "orcish" skill list. Of these, Intimidate, Spot, and Survival would be the most obvious three to mirror the Elf's set of three, while Ride and Handle Animal could be the Half-Orc's new skills, if trying for exactly one-to-one to the Half Elf.

One could alternative apply a +1 Natural Armor bonus to the base Orc to carry over on the Half-Orc, instead of a +2 Con, which opens up a couple of options and ties into one of the Eye of Gruumsh's features. Similarly, a +1 to attack vs. Elves and Dwarves would in the former case presage the +2 damage bonus the Orc Paragon gives and in the latter case mirror the Dwarf bonus vs. Orcs.

[Kish]

I suspect this is considerably more sweeping than will be helpful to you, but I've actually used what you're asking for in games, so, here's my half-orc fix:

Orcs are not interfertile with humans. Orcs replace half-orcs as a standard player race. Their stats are as follows:

+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence
Darkvision 60 feet
Favored class: Warblade
Treats a dire axe as a martial weapon; can also wield a dire axe in one hand (as though it were medium)
Medium
Speed 30 feet
Automatic languages: Orc and Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.

Dire axe statistics:

Large exotic weapon (two-handed for dwarves, humans, or elves; unusable by halflings or gnomes)
Cost: 60 GP
Damage: 1d12
Critical: 19-20/x3
Weight: 15 lbs
Range: -
Type: Slashing
A dire axe counts as an associated weapon for the Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven martial adept disciplines.

(I'd do something similar with half-elves--I think the "humans can breed with everything" thing is extremely stupid--except elves are already a default PC race and I don't want to be down one, and my players would be less than thrilled about losing half-elves. But if I had wanted to keep half-orcs playable these would still be the stats I'd use for them. Yes, I do also still use the 3.0ed weapon size rules.)

[Luccan]

I do the same with the attributes. I similarly allow Orcs to drop one penalty. Honestly, I think the designers just didn't have a good enough idea of what makes Half-Elves and Half-Orcs not just their non-human parent but Less. Especially Half-Orcs, because Orcs are barely anything to begin with. I think my solution to both being kind of lame will be to at least include a Human ability as well. So choose between either a bonus feat or bonus skill points. That's a lot more like "half-human, half-x" than just getting lesser versions of their x-parent. Bonus to Intimidate checks also seems to fit the Half-Orc archetype (and maybe boost it to a full +4 to Intimidate checks for Orcs, to tie them together a little better).

I have debated giving Half-Orcs a +2 bonus to Sense Motive checks before as well, on the assumption that most Half-Orcs are mistreated regardless of the community they are raised in and it makes sense they'd have a good sense of when things are about to go bad, even if they aren't super clever. Plus it contrasts well with the Half-Elf, who is generally seen as genial and easy to talk to, while the Half-Orc is gruff but knows how to read threats.

[Duke of Urrel]

I like half-orcs basically as they are. However, I apply a general "fix" to racial Charisma penalties.

If a particular race imposes a penalty on your Charisma score, I do not count this penalty when you use Charisma to influence creatures of your own species. Thus, if you're a half-orc and you try to influence other orcs or half-orcs, your Charisma score effectively goes up by two. The same thing happens if you're a dwarf and you try to influence other dwarves.

[Troacctid]

I say drop both penalties. Just +2 Strength, no other ability modifiers, no other changes needed. Bam, done.

[Morphic tide]

I say drop both penalties. Just +2 Strength, no other ability modifiers, no other changes needed. Bam, done.

"+2 Strength, 60 ft. Darkvision, Orc subtype" would be the single blandest race in the entire system. Humans' bonus feat can do interesting things, and the skill point is a versatile benefit. This is 3.5, fiddly conditional bonuses and seemingly-random Racial skill modifiers are just how things are here.

[ShurikVch]

Note: there are two official variants of Half-Orc with just one penalty:

Desert Half-Orc: +2 Con -2 Int, LLV instead Darkvision, Run bonus feat, and Heat Endurance

Warcraft the Roleplaying Game Half-Orc: +2 Con -2 Wis, LLV instead Darkvision, +1 on saves vs fear, and +2 on Intimidate and Sense Motive checks (and both of those skills are "always class skills")

(Oddly: both variants grant Con bonus - instead Str -, and LLV instead Darkvision)

[Troacctid]

"+2 Strength, 60 ft. Darkvision, Orc subtype" would be the single blandest race in the entire system. Humans' bonus feat can do interesting things, and the skill point is a versatile benefit. This is 3.5, fiddly conditional bonuses and seemingly-random Racial skill modifiers are just how things are here.

• It's not any blander than the status quo. It's just more powerful.
• Half-elf is still blander.
• Doing away with the stereotype that half-orcs are gruff and stupid opens up more character concepts instead of pigeonholing them into the dumb muscle trope.
• The spicy part of half-orc in this edition has always been the exclusive feats, prestige classes, substitution levels, and other forms of splat support that it's gotten over the years due to being a core class. All of that is still there.

[Darg]

Are you kidding? Half-orc is the worst of the core races after half-elf, the Str bonus is all it has going for it. It's rarely used except in core-only game in my experience, and not that often even then.

Why would I be kidding? You get +2 strength, dark vision 60 ft, and are medium with 30 base speed. If you can't see how that can be incredibly valuable you aren't being creative enough.

People play Half-Orc for the dearth of other Strength races, not because it's actively good. And if you're willing to accept the lopsided penalty there's not much reason not to go full Orc for +4 Strength, unless you really want Spot/Listen or are relying on that Wisdom for prepared Divine casting or Manifesting.

You literally just pointed out the advantage half-orcs have as if it were a penalty. The dearth of other strength races is part of why half-orc is so actively good. Heck, bonuses to strength near always are accompanied with lopsided penalties. Straight orc has 3 things going against it: an extra -2, light sensitivity, and is a monster race which may not always be available and could be more harshly stigmatized in setting.

[Morphic tide]

It's not any blander than the status quo. It's just more powerful.

It's still weaker where it matters, in the utility space, where all those weird frills on the Gnome shine.

Half-elf is still blander.

How is something with two different grades of bonus across five skills, no perfect Elf overlap among it, blander than just a single +1 modifier and the nigh-omnipresent Darkvision?

Doing away with the stereotype that half-orcs are gruff and stupid opens up more character concepts instead of pigeonholing them into the dumb muscle trope.

Constitution and Dexterity still distinguish kind of muscle, and the absence of Wisdom penalty leaves Cleric, Ardent, or Psychic Warrior wide open where the Orc's -2 is a meaningful problem for spell/power levels.

The spicy part of half-orc in this edition has always been the exclusive feats, prestige classes, substitution levels, and other forms of splat support that it's gotten over the years due to being a core class. All of that is still there.

And the point of this thread is having a "selling point" on the race itself.

[Darg]

It's still weaker where it matters, in the utility space, where all those weird frills on the Gnome shine.

And gnomes pay for it significantly. -4 strength compared to half-orc, small sized, 20 base speed, and low-light vision instead of dark.

How is something with two different grades of bonus across five skills, no perfect Elf overlap among it, blander than just a single +1 modifier and the nigh-omnipresent Darkvision?

Because a strength bonus IS a skill modifier. +1 to 3 skills in core. Not to mention it improves other strength based checks, not just AB and damage.

And the point of this thread is having a "selling point" on the race itself.

It does have a selling point, you just dismiss it out of hand.

[Morphic tide]

And gnomes pay for it significantly. -4 strength compared to half-orc, small sized, 20 base speed, and low-light vision instead of dark.

They're Favored Class Bard with an Illusion boost. Swinging in melee isn't really their job. The point of bringing them up is that they have a save DC boost to a school of magic, a saving throw boost against the same, a Craft (Alchemy) bonus, +1 AC for size and +4 Dodge AC against Giants, and more than a bit of mind-games off those SLAs. It is quite vastly more likely for that wide net to draw the spotlight to "Gnome" than +2 Strength is to draw it to "Half-Orc".

Because a strength bonus IS a skill modifier. +1 to 3 skills in core. Not to mention it improves other strength based checks, not just AB and damage.

+1 to three skills based on a scalar they share, which are all for difficult movement that is very easily outmoded by a long list of methods, versus +1 to three and +2 to another two, which apply to at least three different areas and are declared independently, and the +2s are not on the pure Elf. In terms of "blandness", being solely on the abilities column is a severe problem, because it means it's going to be lost in the general game math even if it's more useful. The phrase "boring, but practical" comes to mind, which is the entire point of Humans in 3.5. And even then, the "boring practicality" is a massive lightener of build constraints to let you get away with a variety of weird things, or reach something interesting faster.

It does have a selling point, you just dismiss it out of hand.

I'm dismissing "+2 ability modifier" because the vast majority of races have that, Half-Orc is only slightly distinct for having it in Strength that isn't necessarily the top priority. Because there are a lot of crippling Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves to be made that a +2 in can be far more important to. Especially if you're rolling or using arrays so you can't save points by making 15-18 Strength cheaper.

[Darg]

They're Favored Class Bard with an Illusion boost. Swinging in melee isn't really their job. The point of bringing them up is that they have a save DC boost to a school of magic, a saving throw boost against the same, a Craft (Alchemy) bonus, +1 AC for size and +4 Dodge AC against Giants, and more than a bit of mind-games off those SLAs. It is quite vastly more likely for that wide net to draw the spotlight to "Gnome" than +2 Strength is to draw it to "Half-Orc".

So you think that a race's favored class is determinant of the class they should be? In the same way you are comparing a gnome bard with a half-orc, it's only fair to compare a martial orc to a martial gnome. In this case you really can't see the benefit being an orc has over being a gnome?

+1 to three skills based on a scalar they share, which are all for difficult movement that is very easily outmoded by a long list of methods, versus +1 to three and +2 to another two, which apply to at least three different areas and are declared independently, and the +2s are not on the pure Elf. In terms of "blandness", being solely on the abilities column is a severe problem, because it means it's going to be lost in the general game math even if it's more useful. The phrase "boring, but practical" comes to mind, which is the entire point of Humans in 3.5. And even then, the "boring practicality" is a massive lightener of build constraints to let you get away with a variety of weird things, or reach something interesting faster.

What you find bland, I find incredibly interesting and more complex than you give it credit for. Overall it just appears as though you think strength itself isn't that strong of a stat. You'd be wrong, but I don't think I'd be the best person to convince you otherwise. Just know that what you are describing is wholly subjective.

You say that the strength skills are easily bypassed, but what about an (half-)elf's sleep immunity? Most forms of magical sleep and other hostile enchantments are going to be negated by a level 1 spell just as those strength skills can easily be negated. A +1 bonus to listen, search, and spot checks is far, far weaker than a straight up +2 to wisdom. The +2 bonus to gather information is pretty superfluous considering how easy those checks actually are. I can't deny that the +2 to diplomacy is pretty nice, but its strength depends solely on your DM. Even against a pure elf, using an armor based class can negate the value of that +2 dex, having -2 con is equal to being more vulnerable to fort saves, lesser concentration checks, and suffering 1*level worth of damage at the start of every battle. Ok, sure, elves get low light vision and weapon proficiencies, but if you're a fighter your extra proficiencies mean nothing and the half-orc's darkvision is superior to low light vision.

All you're doing is comparing the "benefits" of one race through a singular biased lens to support your claim that half-orc is just bad. Doing it the other way should make it pretty obvious that doing that works both ways.

I'm dismissing "+2 ability modifier" because the vast majority of races have that, Half-Orc is only slightly distinct for having it in Strength that isn't necessarily the top priority. Because there are a lot of crippling Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves to be made that a +2 in can be far more important to. Especially if you're rolling or using arrays so you can't save points by making 15-18 Strength cheaper.

I don't get what you mean. +2 strength is as valuable rolling or using arrays as it is in point buy. Just as fortitude, reflex, or will saves can be valuable (which a half-orc receives 0 penalties for by the way), not having a -4 on grapple checks can be extremely beneficial. A half-orc basically has a +6 bonus to many combat related strength based checks compared to a gnome.

[Morphic tide]

So you think that a race's favored class is determinant of the class they should be? In the same way you are comparing a gnome bard with a half-orc, it's only fair to compare a martial orc to a martial gnome. In this case you really can't see the benefit being an orc has over being a gnome?

Given the sole reason we're discussing martial Orcs is that that is the obvious use of the stats, with you not mentioning my observation that Half-Orcs opening one mental stat still opens quite a few routes the pure Orc is outright terrible at due to the tyranny of minimum scores? I'd say comparing "what the race is good for" to "what the race is good for" is accurate. And if you actually use the rule Favored Class refers to, it is an absolutely massive matter because 30% less XP is obscene. Thus almost nobody using it, because it is a truly crippling binary distinction on a very sketchy basis. You can refer to Wizard or Beguiler or Sorcerer or whatever other class has decent Illusion spells for that save DC bonus to work on instead, but Bard is the one of those most likely to be using a Bow that eventually applies Strength.

What you find bland, I find incredibly interesting and more complex than you give it credit for. Overall it just appears as though you think strength itself isn't that strong of a stat. You'd be wrong, but I don't think I'd be the best person to convince you otherwise. Just know that what you are describing is wholly subjective.

You're obsessing over the extrapolation of literally one number, that Half-Elf is in the extreme minority for lacking. If we compare to the full Elf, +2 Dexterity applies to a lot more things with a lot more shenanigans from a lot more abilities applying it to additional things. It's not Charisma's absurdities of X stat to Y bonus or the hotline to t1 that Intelligence or Wisdom are, but if you are willing to set a target combat competence a variety of races can meet it's generally going to see moreoverall value from Elf than Half-Orc.

You say that the strength skills are easily bypassed, but what about an (half-)elf's sleep immunity? Most forms of magical sleep and other hostile enchantments are going to be negated by a level 1 spell just as those strength skills can easily be negated. A +1 bonus to listen, search, and spot checks is far, far weaker than a straight up +2 to wisdom. The +2 bonus to gather information is pretty superfluous considering how easy those checks actually are. I can't deny that the +2 to diplomacy is pretty nice, but its strength depends solely on your DM. Even against a pure elf, using an armor based class can negate the value of that +2 dex, having -2 con is equal to being more vulnerable to fort saves, lesser concentration checks, and suffering 1*level worth of damage at the start of every battle. Ok, sure, elves get low light vision and weapon proficiencies, but if you're a fighter your extra proficiencies mean nothing and the half-orc's darkvision is superior to low light vision.

Again, ignoring that classes other than pure martials have interest in Strength (the previously-mentioned Cleric would appreciate the proficiencies), and you're ignoring the Flat-Footed/Touch tradeoff, and ignoring that there's a lot more versatility in the skills Dexterity applies to, and that the pure Elf's getting that Dexterity bump alongside racial skill bonuses. Go ahead, try making that tradeoff at low levels on the Duskblade or Bard purging the Intelligence and Charisma penalties opened up, I'll be laughing at your Arcane Spell Failure while I centralize attack rolls.

All you're doing is comparing the "benefits" of one race through a singular biased lens to support your claim that half-orc is just bad. Doing it the other way should make it pretty obvious that doing that works both ways.

I'm saying it's bland, not that it's bad. The current one is bad, but Troacctid's suggested "fix" makes it the single blantest race in the game with its sole advertisement being which ability score it gets a +2 to, with no -2 to establish relative weaknesses or additional bonuses outside the +2 ability score to make "Half-Orc" overtly matter the way the "frills" on the others do.

I don't get what you mean. +2 strength is as valuable rolling or using arrays as it is in point buy. Just as fortitude, reflex, or will saves can be valuable (which a half-orc receives 0 penalties for by the way), not having a -4 on grapple checks can be extremely beneficial. A half-orc basically has a +6 bonus to many combat related strength based checks compared to a gnome.

...No, it is vastly more valuable in point-buy because if you're aiming for the generally-available 18 a racial +2 is saving you six points, letting you take an 8 for a -1 modifier to a 14 for a +2 modifier. Even comparing 16 to 14+2, it's still +4 points.

Do you not know that the "min" in "min-maxing" refers to "minimizing downsides", and some people actually like that part being an active pursuit instead of having an overshadowing no-downsides option like the Human bonus feat and omnipresent Fighter dips?

[Troacctid]

Morphic tide, I disagree with your basic premise that ability score penalties inherently make a player race more interesting. I think that at best, they are boring knobs for adjusting power level, and at worst, they make the race less interesting by blocking off potential combinations and pigeonholing you into a too-narrow range of options. Well, okay, at the actual worst, they reinforce historically racist tropes and stereotypes, but that's not something I want to really delve into in this particular thread.

Do you not know that the "min" in "min-maxing" refers to "minimizing downsides", and some people actually like that part being an active pursuit instead of having an overshadowing no-downsides option like the Human bonus feat and omnipresent Fighter dips?

No, it refers to minimizing some aspects of the character in order to maximize others. Usually this means committing to being really bad at the things you were already going to be bad at so that you can focus your resources into being really good at the thing you want to be good at.

[Morphic tide]

Morphic tide, I disagree with your basic premise that ability score penalties inherently make a player race more interesting. I think that at best, they are boring knobs for adjusting power level, and at worst, they make the race less interesting by blocking off potential combinations and pigeonholing you into a too-narrow range of options.

Do you really find no value in working around a cost built into a benefit? Do you seriously think the game should operate solely on degrees of upside and opportunity costs, with no direct downsides? Because that's what this position of yours pretty much inevitably concludes in. And as seen when they did that in 5e, it's just going to happen again with there being fixed bonuses in the first place.

No, it refers to minimizing some aspects of the character in order to maximize others. Usually this means committing to being really bad at the things you were already going to be bad at so that you can focus your resources into being really good at the thing you want to be good at.

How many places am I going to have to quote giving "minimizing weaknesses while maximizing strengths" and similar for you to understand it's the general case? Because I've got GiantBomb, Urban Dictionary, TV tropes, a number of Reddit, stackexchange, and Quora questions, the general D&D fandom wiki, the Wikipedia glossary of video game terms... Pretty clearly the more common one.

[Troacctid]

Do you really find no value in working around a cost built into a benefit? Do you seriously think the game should operate solely on degrees of upside and opportunity costs, with no direct downsides? Because that's what this position of yours pretty much inevitably concludes in. And as seen when they did that in 5e, it's just going to happen again with there being fixed bonuses in the first place.

No, I just think that the qualitative blandness of ability score bonuses and penalties is basically static, and turning that knob a couple ticks in one direction or another doesn't make a race more or less bland to any noticeable degree. Half-orc is pretty bland if you remove the ability score penalties, but only because it was already just as bland before removing them.

How many places am I going to have to quote giving "minimizing weaknesses while maximizing strengths" and similar for you to understand it's the general case? Because I've got GiantBomb, Urban Dictionary, TV tropes, a number of Reddit, stackexchange, and Quora questions, the general D&D fandom wiki, the Wikipedia glossary of video game terms... Pretty clearly the more common one.

Five? I'll say five. Five is a good number.

[pabelfly]

So, first comment: there are roughly 54 separate races without racial HD or level adjustment in 3e, and 173 if you're taking into account the various subtypes of a race (so, an Arctic Half-Orc and Desert Half-Orc would count as two separate options). Then we can start getting into ECL 2 options and so forth. How much are we balancing? What's our metric for a "balanced race" ? Having so many options is inevitably going to lead to options that are better than others, it seems like attempting to balance this is the sort of task that would never end and add pointless bloat and complexity to a homebrew system.

That said, let's talk balance. Orc is a perfectly fine and doesn't need any adjustment, in my opinion. +4 STR is pretty good for any sort of melee character, as long as you can stand a slight hit to mental stats. Orc is also fairly often chosen as a LA 0 mundane martial race, if that's the metric we need to use to judge the quality of a race.

Half-Orc is a bit more niche, but having access to Headlong Rush and Channeled Rage makes a decent Barbarian or Barbarian multiclass. As someone else said, it's not a bad option for a wisdom-based Gish either. It's not the most popular option, but I don't see it as being such a bad option that it necessitates homebrew to fix it.

[redking]

I did a whole thread on half races as templates instead of races, including half-orcs.

Spoiler: Half-Orc template

Show

Is it crazy to have hybrid creatures as templates instead? I note that if you want a half-elf gnome, you can't do that. Instead you are locked into half-elf half human (called a half-elf). Same with the half-orc. But what if they could breed with any humanoid?

Half-Elf Template
To apply the half-elf template to a humanoid creature, apply the following changes to the base creature:

1. Size: The base creature's size remains unchanged.
2. Speed: The base creature's land speed remains unchanged.
3. Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following special qualities:
a. Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
b. Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
c. Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
4. Skills: The base creature gains a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, and a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
5. Languages: The base creature retains its automatic languages and gains Elven as an automatic language. It can also learn any bonus languages available to the base creature.
6. Favored Class: The base creature can choose its favored class from its original favored class (before applying the template) or Wizard (the favored class of elves). When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, their highest-level class does not count.

Half-Orc Template
To apply the half-orc template to a humanoid creature, apply the following changes to the base creature:

1. Size: The base creature's size remains unchanged.
2. Ability Score Adjustments: The base creature's ability scores are adjusted as follows: +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. Its starting Intelligence score must be at least 3.
3. Speed: The base creature's land speed remains unchanged.
4. Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following special qualities:
a. Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
b. Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
5. Languages: The base creature retains its automatic languages and gains Orc as an automatic language. It can also learn the following bonus languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
6. Favored Class: The base creature can choose its favored class from its original favored class (before applying the template) or Barbarian (the favored class of half-orcs). A multiclass half-orc's chosen favored class does not count when determining whether they take an experience point penalty.

Tiefling Template
Tiefling is an inherited template that can be added to any creature with the humanoid type (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A tiefling retains all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. The tiefling template represents the distant evil outsider ancestry, such as a demon or devil, within the base creature's bloodline.

Examples of creatures that could have the tiefling template include humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, orcs, and goblinoids.

Size and Type: The base creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: Change all of the base creature's racial Hit Dice to d8s.

Speed: Tiefling retains the base creature's speed.

Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus increases by +1.

Attack: A tiefling retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a claw attack if it didn't already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the tiefling retains this ability. A tiefling fighting without weapons uses its claw attack when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.

Full Attack: A tiefling fighting without weapons uses its claw attack (see above) when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its claw as a natural secondary attack.

Damage: Tieflings have claw attacks that deal the indicated damage plus their Strength bonus.

Special Attacks: A tiefling retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attack.

Darkness (Sp): A tiefling can use darkness, as the spell, once per day. Its caster level is equal to its character level.

Special Qualities: A tiefling retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains the following.

- Darkvision out to 60 feet.
- Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
- +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

Skills: A tiefling gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) × (Hit Dice + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the tiefling gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature's list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

Environment: Same as the base creature.

Organization: Solitary or family.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1.

Alignment: Usually evil (any).

Advancement: By character class.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +1.

Has anyone ever done this at their table? All I did was take the relevant parts of half-elf, half-orc and tiefling races and change it to a template.

Edit: just in case, a half-human template.

Half-Human Template
To apply the half-human template to a humanoid creature, apply the following changes to the base creature:

1. Size: The base creature's size remains unchanged.
2. Speed: The base creature's land speed remains unchanged.
3. Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following special qualities:
a. Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-human is considered a human.
b. Adaptability: Half-humans receive Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
4. Skills: The base creature gains an additional skill point at each level. If the base creature already had extra skill points per level (such as from a racial trait), this bonus stacks with the existing bonus.
5. Languages: The base creature retains its automatic languages and gains Common as an automatic language. It can also learn any bonus languages available to the base creature or humans.
6. Favored Class: The base creature can choose its favored class from its original favored class (before applying the template) or any one additional class. When determining whether a multiclass half-human takes an experience point penalty, their highest-level class does not count.

So what do you do in the instance of a hybrid of orc and elf? First you decide which ancestry the base creature favours biologically. If it is majority orc, then it is an orc base creature with the half-elf template applied. Any variant works the same way.

[Pugwampy]

Back at 3.5 after a very long hiatus. I never fixed the Half-Orc back in the day and now have a mind to. I've looked through a lot of old post around the internet but am wondering what people are doing now in 2023. My main concern is the racial modifiers, what I'm thinking right now is:

+2 STR, -2 INT or CHA
+2 on intimidate checks

Thinking I need one or two more things in there, something with flavor due to being a half orc whether its a feat, skill proficiencies or something else.

I am an mega Orc fan . Thank you Warcraft 3 .

3.5 was very unfair orcs . Just compare everything gnomes and Dwarves get to orcs . Author loved gnomes but hated orcs clearly . I played a pure 3.5 orc Barbarian he was not totally useless . +2 to Str is massive .

Pathfinder 1e very much fixed the 3.5 imbalance . Pathfinder also reminds us that Half Orcs are half human

I recommend you read Pathfinder Core rules for all your Orky Needs . PF players handbook II also has more Half Orc Options .

[Metastachydium]

People play Half-Orc for the dearth of other Strength races, not because it's actively good. And if you're willing to accept the lopsided penalty there's not much reason not to go full Orc for +4 Strength, unless you really want Spot/Listen or are relying on that Wisdom for prepared Divine casting or Manifesting.

Yup. And a melee gish can always go Skarn or Darfellan or especially Lesser Zenythri. The full Orc's +4 with no LA makes it a rare and occasionally useful tool. Half-Orc… Is not in the same boat.

I suspect this is considerably more sweeping than will be helpful to you, but I've actually used what you're asking for in games, so, here's my half-orc fix:

Orcs are not interfertile with humans.

But what about the unneccessarily cringe backstory drama, then?!

Orcs replace half-orcs as a standard player race.

Hard disagree. Full Orcs could live with only two stat penalties (WotC really does oversell STR as a stat), but that doesn't mean shafting them is the way to go.

Large exotic weapon

That's a 3.0-ism.

(two-handed for dwarves, humans, or elves; unusable by halflings or gnomes)

As is that (if not outright a 5e-ism). It's also odd how that ignores, like, all the other races in the game.

Overall, I'd recommend ripping off the warmace^CW, but having it deal slashing and be done with it.

I did a whole thread on half races as templates instead of races, including half-orcs.

[SPOILER=Half-Orc template ]

Heh. I did a Half-Orc template of my own recently, albeit the focus was… Somewhat different. (The same thread has an Orc-Elf hybrid as well somewhere, because Elves and Orcs hybridizing freely with Humans but not each other struck me as odd.)

[Gnaeus]

Yup. And a melee gish can always go Skarn or Darfellan or especially Lesser Zenythri. The full Orc's +4 with no LA makes it a rare and occasionally useful tool. Half-Orc… Is not in the same boat.

Can they always? Orcs are pretty darn common across D&D settings. I think in most games, Half orc will be an option, and orc also possibly. Hey, Mr. DM, I'm a thing from MM2 using an optional template from Races of Faerun to make something that most people think is at the top of the race scale doesn't seem like a slam dunk to me. I mean they can ALWAYS play a mineral warrior with LA buyoff.

But sure, if lesser Zenthyri are in fact common in your game, you could boost half orc.

It is not always necessary to balance things to the strongest published option. I'd be more likely to rewrite lesser Zenthri....