Simple RAW Thread for 3.5 #37: 3d12+1

[Vaern]

268 a: When in a stance of Immortal Fortitude, does a character with die-hard make a fortitude save when it is dropped to hp between 0 and -9, or only when it is dropped to -10 or below?

A 268 a

This seems like a bit of a can of worms that may warrant a thread of its own. I can't decide which way to go with this myself. I'm sitting on two possibilities.
Note: Diehard doesn't outright prevent you from falling unconscious. It lets you choose when taking damage to either fall unconscious per normal, or to remain conscious but disabled instead.

Option 1: The stance triggers when taking damage could cause you to fall unconscious. Falling below 0 HP means you have technically taken enough damage to become incapacitated - in theory, since you have the option to forego the effect of diehard. This triggers your stance and allows for a saving throw to mitigate the damage. If you fail and take damage that would render you unconscious, you may still use diehard to choose to remain conscious instead.

Option 2: The stance triggers when taking damage would cause you to fall unconscious. The stance does not trigger between 0 and -9, unless you actively choose to forego the effect of diehard and fall unconscious; then, you are allowed a saving throw to prevent that unconsciousness.

268 b: If an undead or a construct in the stance of immortal fortitude takes 20 damage when at 1 hit point, what would be the DC for the save? And is the construct/undead immune to that save, and automatically gets back to 1 hp?

A 268 b

First, as far as I can find there are no actual hard caps on how low your HP can go, providing you can prevent yourself from dying to HP loss. An undead or construct taking 20 damage from 1 HP is still at -19 HP, despite normally being destroyed at 0. The DC would be 19.

Second, immunity to effects that allow for a fortitude save doesn't apply to harmless effects. Since this stance is a personal-range effect that prevents you from dying, I think it would be safe to consider it harmless.

Third, immunity does not mean you automatically succeed on your saving throw; it means you aren't affected by the thing allowing the saving throw.
Look at disintegrate. It does a lot of damage on a failed saving throw. It does a lot less damage on a successful saving throw. It does no damage if you are immune to it, because the spell doesn't affect you at all.
Consider the stance similarly. You are destroyed on a failed save. You survive on a successful save. If you are immune, the effect does not affect you at all - in which case, you are destroyed at 0 HP per normal.

Fourth, the stance may actually have no effect on undead or constructs at all. It triggers on damage that would kill or incapacitate you by falling below 0 HP. Undead and constructs are destroyed at 0 HP; they are not killed, nor do they fall unconscious. The effect of the stance would never proc due to these creatures using different terminology, on account of them having not been technically alive to begin with.

[St Fan]

Q 269

Two questions inspired by this flaw:

COWARD [FLAW]
In dangerous circumstances, you are likely to run away.
Effect: You automatically fail all saves against fear effects.
An ability that makes you immune to fear (such as becoming a 3rd-level paladin) instead grants you a saving throw, but at a -4 penalty on the save.

A) The Craven feat (Champion of Ruins) includes in its prerequisites "cannot be immune to fear".
If a character has an ability making him immune to fear, but also the Coward flaw, he can still take the Craven feat, right? Because in the end, he's not immune to fear...

B) The Tattooed Monk prestige class includes this tattoo of power:

Falcon: A character with this tattoo is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Allies within 10 feet of his gain a morale bonus on their saving throws against fear effects equal to the tattooed monk's Charisma bonus (if any) plus the number of tattoos he possesses.

If a Tattooed Monk with this tattoo also has the Coward flaw, he still has to make saving throw against fear with a penalty... but he also gets the morale bonus from the tattoo, right? Since he's his own ally, and is certainly within 10 feet of himself...

[KillianHawkeye]

A 269 A and B


Your interpretation of how these things interact appears to be correct.

[schreibenheimer]

Q 270

The PH states "An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves," but doesn't explicitly state that it has only those good saves or that it has poor Will saves. Dire animals are a common animal companion option and normally have good Will saves. Would a dire animal companion continue to have good Will saves?

EDIT
A 270 (possible)

Kept looking into this, and the NPC Chazzar Ne from CoR has a Dire Wolf Animal Companion that has advanced with a poor Will Save, so it seems the answer is no, unless there are any contradictory examples.

[St Fan]

Q 271

A Ranger takes the Two-Weapon Combat Style, as well as the alternate class feature Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion).

Champion of the Wild replaces spellcasting with bonus feats. Those feats can be selected from a general list, or two other lists depending of the chosen Combat Style (Archery or Two-Weapon Combat).

When qualifying for it, the Ranger picks Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat.

Later, he gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat from another source. Thus he wants to use the retraining rules from the Player's Handbook II to change his combat style for another ACF that replaces it (for example the Wild Shape Ranger from Unearthed Arcana).

However, the retraining rule for class features specify that "... the new choice can't make any of your later choice illegal--though it might automatically change class features acquired later if they are based of the initial choice."

A) Although he would still have all the prerequisites for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, does the fact that it was picked as a bonus feat from the Two-Weapon Combat list of Champion of the Wild make this an "illegal choice" for retraining Combat Style?

B) Would the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat first need to be retrained, to exchange it with a feat from the general list, before the class feature retraining be allowed?

[AceDacons]

Q#272
The Dragon Disciple has a prerequisite that says "Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon)". It clearly specifies half-dragon, but does it still include a character with the Draconic template?

[Troacctid]

Q#272
The Dragon Disciple has a prerequisite that says "Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon)". It clearly specifies half-dragon, but does it still include a character with the Draconic template?

A creature with the draconic template is a nondragon.

[ciopo]

Q273

Can an undead creature/character take the craven feat?

[Venger]

A 273 Yes. Undead are not immune to fear as a rule. Most fx will fail against them due to targeting living creatures or being mind-affecting.

[ShurikVch]

A 273 Yes. Undead are not immune to fear as a rule. Most fx will fail against them due to targeting living creatures or being mind-affecting.

That depends on the ruling:
Rules Compendium says:

Fear attacks can have various consequences, but all of them are mind-affecting fear effects.

While some people may disregard Rules Compendium's authority ("RC is not ERRATA!"), some other people accept it and use in the game

Anyway, Coward flaw (Dragon #324) fix the issue rather easily: it makes the character to fail all the saves vs Fear effects; anything which usually gives Fear immunity, instead allow to make saves vs Fear normally (except with -4 penalty)

[H_H_F_F]

Q 274
Multiple slow effects don't count, and slow dispels haste. Does casting slow twice on a hasted target slow them?

[Venger]

A 274 Yes. ten characters

[H_H_F_F]

Thanks, Venger.

Q 275

Does dancing mongoose work with claws?

[Venger]

Anytime

A 275 Yes. It does not specify "manufactured weapons," so any natural weapon, including claw (which is incidentally a tiger claw associated weapon) can be used.

[ciopo]

Q276

is it possible to take standard actions as full actions? the specific example would be manyshot for the purpose of not incurring in the volley rule relative to precision damage

[KillianHawkeye]

A 276 No, there is no rule that supports this.

[St Fan]

A 273 Yes. Undead are not immune to fear as a rule. Most fx will fail against them due to targeting living creatures or being mind-affecting.

A 273 slight contention

I can be argued that the immunity to "morale effects", which is part of the broad immunity to mind-affecting effects, includes an immunity to fear. Then again, what exactly composes those "morale effects" is not very well defined in-game.

[Thurbane]

Q 277

If a Dryad becomes undead, does she still "die" if more than 300 yards from her tree?

Two reasons I ask: 1. undead aren't technically alive, so I'm not sure they can die, as such?

...and 2. undead are immune to "death effects" (not sure if this would count as such though)?

[Venger]

A 273 (clarification) "Morale effects" are things that have the "morale bonus" bonus type, such as the inspire courage use of bardic music, or are listed as morale effects, such as dreadful wrath (which incidentally is a non-MA fear effect, so would work on an undead who failed their save).

These are not mind-affecting, so are not subject to MA immunity. Creatures immune to morale effects such as undead and mindless creatures, cannot benefit from them. Morale effects are often also MA, such as heroics or rage, but all morale effects are not MA. You can benefit from inspire courage's morale bonus if you have mind blank up, for example.

[St Fan]

A 273 (clarification) "Morale effects" are things that have the "morale bonus" bonus type, such as the inspire courage use of bardic music, or are listed as morale effects, such as dreadful wrath (which incidentally is a non-MA fear effect, so would work on an undead who failed their save).

These are not mind-affecting, so are not subject to MA immunity. Creatures immune to morale effects such as undead and mindless creatures, cannot benefit from them. Morale effects are often also MA, such as heroics or rage, but all morale effects are not MA. You can benefit from inspire courage's morale bonus if you have mind blank up, for example.

Mmmmh... but inspire courage include this clear line in the SRD: "Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability." Do you base yourself on an older source that didn't have this precision?

As for Dreadful Wrath, it mentions "This is an extraordinary morale effect." So no, it wouldn't work on undead, who are immune to morale effects, even by RAW.

And it seems to me by RAI that all morale effects are mind-affecting.

[Vaern]

A 273 (clarification) "Morale effects" are things that have the "morale bonus" bonus type, such as the inspire courage use of bardic music, or are listed as morale effects, such as dreadful wrath (which incidentally is a non-MA fear effect, so would work on an undead who failed their save).

These are not mind-affecting, so are not subject to MA immunity. Creatures immune to morale effects such as undead and mindless creatures, cannot benefit from them. Morale effects are often also MA, such as heroics or rage, but all morale effects are not MA. You can benefit from inspire courage's morale bonus if you have mind blank up, for example.

A 273 Contentions

Dreadful Wrath says that you gain the frightful presence ability, which is a common ability described in the Monster Manual. Frightful presence is described as being mind-affecting.


The Monster Manual describes multiple forms of fear attacks, and states that "All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects." Any fear attack will always be mind-affecting even if it is not labeled as such, unless the ability in question explicitly declares that it is not mind-affecting.


Rules Compendium defines morale bonuses as being granted by mind-affecting effects.


Creatures and creature types that have immunity to mind-affecting effects list it as such:

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

The ability defines morale effects as being something that it covers. Even if a morale effect isn't labeled as mind-affecting, the creature is still unaffected because its blanket immunity makes it immune to morale effects as a portion of its description.


Mind Blank blocks effects that would influence the subject's emotions. This may be up to interpretation, but most people would consider a morale effect to fall quite squarely into this category.


The description of Inspire Courage labels it as being a mind-affecting ability. Mind Blank doesn't spell out what it considers to be mind-affecting to specifically block morale effects, but Inspire Courage still defines itself as being mind-affecting and would be treated as such.

[H_H_F_F]

A 273 suggestion

Seems like it's time for a new thread.

[Venger]

Nah, I was tired because it was late and got mixed up. The corrections that have been posted are accurate.

Q 277 If a character who has a vile feat later changes their alignment to Good and becomes exalted, following the relevant alignment proscriptions, qualifies for and takes an exalted feat, then (assuming that CWar style continuous qualification is not houseruled into the game) is it allowed to keep both feats as long as it adheres to its relevant exalted code(s) of conduct since there is no proviso in vile feats that you lose them if you become good, commit a good act, etc?

[Vaern]

Q 277

If a Dryad becomes undead, does she still "die" if more than 300 yards from her tree?

Two reasons I ask: 1. undead aren't technically alive, so I'm not sure they can die, as such?

...and 2. undead are immune to "death effects" (not sure if this would count as such though)?

A 277

They would likely be protected from death by your first point, buy not by the second.

1. Since they aren't alive to begin with, undead and constructs don't "die." Instead, they are destroyed when their HP reaches 0.
2. The ability isn't noted as being a death effect. The description doesn't seem to imply that something is actively killing the dryad for having been away from its tree for too long. It's more like the dryad is being deprived of something essential to sustaining its life, much like a more common magical creature being deprived of food or water or air for too long.

Q 278 If a character who has a vile feat later changes their alignment to Good and becomes exalted, following the relevant alignment proscriptions, qualifies for and takes an exalted feat, then (assuming that CWar style continuous qualification is not houseruled into the game) is it allowed to keep both feats as long as it adheres to its relevant exalted code(s) of conduct since there is no proviso in vile feats that you lose them if you become good, commit a good act, etc?

A 278
Continuous qualification for feats is core RAW. I believe Complete Warrior adds a similar continuous qualification rule for prestige classes, but as far as feats are concerned it's always been the norm: If at any point you do not qualify for a feat, you lose the benefit of that feat until you meet the prerequisites for it again.

The general descriptions of vile and exalted feats say they can only be used by intelligent creatures of their respective alignment. Once you cease to be evil, you are no longer able to use your vile feat. The feat should become active again if you become evil again in the future. You may not use both a vile and exalted feat at the same time, unless you can somehow be treated as evil for the purpose of qualifying for feats while also having a good alignment.

Q 279
A friend once mentioned a feat or ability that allows you to treat yourself as being of a particular alignment, regardless of your actual alignment. I think it treated you as chaotic for various purposes, even if your actual alignment was lawful. If such a feat exists, what is it called and where can it be found?

[Venger]

A 279 Ordered chaos. Fiendish codex 1: p 86

[Vaern]

Ah, yes, that was the one. It would allow a lawful good hellbred to wield an anarchic axiomatic holy unholy weapon, but neither the feat nor the hellbred's racial ability applies to feat requirements. I guess that's not a viable shenanigan for becoming both exalted and vile at the same time :(

[Venger]

Yeah, you could be an exalted creature with the [evil] subtype, but that's a pain in the butt for most practical play.

Q 280 Does any clarification exist re: cancer mage as to what is considered a "symptom?"

[ciopo]

Q281

assuming the target is eligible for receiving precision damage, does the automatic damage dealt during successful grapples (such as from snatch feat, or constrict, or other similar abilities) trigger precision damage?

[Venger]

A 281 Yes, it does.

[loky1109]

a281 no, it doesn't. There is specific feat that let you add sneak attack to grapple damage (some Wild shape feat, don't remember name).