Simple RAW Thread for 3.5 #37: 3d12+1

[Vaern]

While you are correct about retraining, and that condition would indeed prevent from gaining a 1st-level-only feat this way at a later level, the question was specifically about rebuilding, which follow a set of different rules.

Nowhere does it say you should apply the same restraints as with retraining, it is you who (wrongly) infer this. In fact, the rebuilding rules specify the final result can perfectly invalidate some prerequisites (which is forbidden with retraining, at least when retraining class features), clearly implying that rebuilding follow its own set of rules, different from retraining.

I'm not inferring it from anything. I'm merely suggesting it, because the specific scenario is not explicitly covered in RAW and it's the closest comparable mechanic available. Rebuilding does allow you to make some changes that may result in you no longer qualifying for existing feats or prestige class levels, but it does not grant permission to take new feats or prestige class levels that you do not meet the prerequisites for. RAW for rebuilding does not take the possibility of gaining new feats into consideration, full stop. Looking at the text for retraining in this scenario simply seems like a more reasonable and concrete solution than inferring whether or not rebuilding might allow it based on what other things it allows you to do.

The rebuilding rules also never mention of looking at your character's attributes at a specific level to ensure that you qualified for something at a particular level. Retraining tells you to ensure that you would have qualified for something at the level you're modifying, but rebuilding never says to reference the state of your character at a particular point other than your current level. Rebuilding only ever looks at your character as a whole, as it exists at the time of rebuilding. A 2nd-level character exchanging a level for half-elf paragon is still a 2nd-level character and would thus not be able to use the granted bonus feat on a 1st-level only feat.

[St Fan]

The rebuilding rules also never mention of looking at your character's attributes at a specific level to ensure that you qualified for something at a particular level. Retraining tells you to ensure that you would have qualified for something at the level you're modifying, but rebuilding never says to reference the state of your character at a particular point other than your current level. Rebuilding only ever looks at your character as a whole, as it exists at the time of rebuilding. A 2nd-level character exchanging a level for half-elf paragon is still a 2nd-level character and would thus not be able to use the granted bonus feat on a 1st-level only feat.

I conclude from the disagreement that there is no RAW answer for that question. However, I am pretty sure the bolded statements are untrue.

You can use this method to trade out (or add in) prestige class levels, though if you want to take levels in a prestige class that's new for your character, you must be able to demonstrate that he can still qualify for it using what he has gained from his remaining class levels. For example, a 7th-level dwarf fighter couldn't trade a fighter level for a dwarven defender level, since his his remaining fighter levels wouldn't allow him to meet the +7 base attack bonus requirement for that prestige class.

The example clearly imply that you check for the prerequisites of a prestige class with the levels preceding the new prestige class level. Not with "the character as a whole existing at the time of rebuilding." Otherwise, rebuilding could be seriously abused by switching early levels with prestige class levels, way sooner than they should be allowed.

[St Fan]

Q 514

A 3rd-level Recaster gains the following benefit:

Time: At 3rd level, you gain the ability to alter the temporal characteristics of your spells. Three times per day, you can cast any spell that normally has a casting time of 1 standard action and a duration longer than 1 round as a swift action, as if you had applied the Quicken Spell feat to it. The level of the spell is not altered and you do not need to specially prepare the spell ahead of time, but the duration of the spell becomes 1 round.

A) A spell with a duration of "1d4 rounds" count as a spell with "a duration longer than 1 round", right?

B) What if the spell has an initial duration greater than a round, and was prepared with the Extend Spell feat? Does applying Metamorphic Spell: Time to it gives it a duration of 2 rounds, or 1 round?

C) What if the spell has an initial duration of exactly 1 round, and was prepared with the Extend Spell feat? Does it count as a spell with "a duration longer than 1 round", and thus can receive the Metamorphic Spell: Time modification?

[redfdf]

Q 515
Some spells, such as Phantom Steed and unseen servant don't have a saving throw listed,, so what should i do if i encounter a situation that requires a saving throw?

Q 516
Righteous Might and polymorph stack?

[Chronos]

A 514 A:

A duration of 1d4 rounds is sometimes greater than 1 round. You don't roll the duration until the spell is cast, and so before it's cast, you can't assume that its duration would be greater than a round, and so you can't use an ability that depends on its duration being longer than 1 round, before it's cast.

B
The spell's duration becomes 1 round, regardless of what it was before, when you use the Recaster ability. If you have the ability to apply metamagic as you're casting the spell (i.e., after the Recaster ability is applied), then you could Extend that to two rounds (is there a Sudden Extend feat?). With wizard casting and normal metamagic feats, however, you could not Extend it afterwards, because applying metamagic happens at the time of preparation.

C
If you prepare your spells with metamagic (such as a wizard using the normal Extend Spell feat), then yes, at the time you would be using the Recaster ability, the spell would be a spell with a duration longer than one round.

[Vaern]

I conclude from the disagreement that there is no RAW answer for that question. However, I am pretty sure the bolded statements are untrue.



The example clearly imply that you check for the prerequisites of a prestige class with the levels preceding the new prestige class level. Not with "the character as a whole existing at the time of rebuilding." Otherwise, rebuilding could be seriously abused by switching early levels with prestige class levels, way sooner than they should be allowed.

It doesn't check the levels preceding a new prestige class level; it checks the whole of your character's class levels.
It says, "you must be able to demonstrate that he can still qualify for it using what he has gained from his remaining class levels;" it does not say, "you must be able to demonstrate that he qualified at the time you chose the previous class."
If you were a 12th level fighter wanting to exchange your 8th level with dwarven defender, the rebuilding mechanic tells you to look at the entirety of your remaining 11 fighter levels - not just your first 7 preceding the level you are looking to exchange. The mechanic doesn't care whether you actually qualified for the class at 8th level, which is the one you are exchanging; it only cares that you qualify now, and that you still meet the prerequisites with all of your remaining 11 levels. And because it's checking your remaining class levels rather than checking that you qualify at a specific level, the mechanic doesn't actually seem to care whether you're trying to exchange your 8th level for the new prestige class, or your 12th level, or even your 1st level to max out that d12 HD. Anywhere you put that dwarven defender level, it's still looking at all of your remaining fighter levels, minus the one being exchanged, to determine whether you qualify for dwarven defender. This is what I mean when I say "it doesn't look at a specific level, only your character as a whole."

This example may be completely moot, though. It's important to note that the rebuilding rules never indicate that you can choose a specific level to exchange for a level of a new class. In the few examples given in PHB2, it always appears that a character effectively loses a level in an existing class and gains a level in a new class as though it was their most recent level up. A sorcerer 5 becomes a sorcerer 4/rogue 1, for example, even though becoming rogue 1/sorcerer 4 would be significantly more advantageous due to the 1st-level boost to skill points.
I'm definitely inferring this since the book doesn't go into much depth regarding how the mechanic may be used, but if this is the case then my previous example is moot. A 12th level fighter may not even have the option to rebuild into a fighter 7/dwarven defender 1/fighter 4, only into a fighter 11/dwarven defender 1. To that end, a 2nd-level character in this case would not even have the option to rebuild themselves in such a way as to be a half-elf paragon at 1st level.

As for abusing rebuilding to switch early levels with prestige class level: 100% possible, but not by how the mechanic checks your character but rather when it checks your character. The check to verify that you can legally exchange an existing level for a level of a prestige class is only performed when that class is new to your character. Once you have your first level in a prestige class, there doesn't seem to be any rule preventing you from then changing out all of your remaining base class levels from PrC levels. The mechanic does allow you to rebuild in ways that make an existing PrC invalid, after all, but since you retain an invalid PrC's BAB and skills it is possible for some PrCs to grant their own prerequisites even when you have no base class levels remaining.

[Duke of Urrel]

Q 515
Some spells, such as Phantom Steed and unseen servant don't have a saving throw listed,, so what should i do if i encounter a situation that requires a saving throw?

A 515 (1. Phantom Steed): Ask your dungeon master.

On the one hand, the effect of the Phantom Steed spell is identified as "a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature."

On the other hand, the description of this spell does not specify any Hit-Dice level for this "horselike creature" (though it may imply that the "creature's" Hit-Dice level is the same as its creator's caster level). And without Hit Dice, you can't have base save bonuses.

Is this merely an omission, or did the rulebook writers consider the effect of the Phantom Steed spell to be functionally an object that should never make any saving throws? I believe it is up to your dungeon master to decide whether this thing is functionally a creature that makes saving throws or functionally an object that does not.

If the effect of the Phantom Steed spell makes saving throws, presumably it has as many Hit Dice as its creator's caster level. But it is also up to your dungeon master to decide whether the "horse-like creature" created by the Phantom Steed spell has the base save bonuses of an Animal (good Fortitude and Reflex saves and poor Will saves) or perhaps of a Construct (all poor saves, but with the immunities of Constructs).

Ask your dungeon master!

A 515 (2. Unseen Servant): The effect of the Unseen Servant spell cannot make saving throws. The description of the Unseen Servant spell says so explicitly.

Although the effect of the Unseen Servant spell behaves like a creature, it is not a creature but "an invisible, mindless, shapeless force." Of course, since this force is mindless, it is immune to Mind-Affecting magic.

Q 516
Righteous Might and polymorph stack?

A 516: Ask your dungeon master.

I think judgement calls are unavoidable here. The general rule is this.

Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient.

There are two main exceptions to this general rule. One is that effects of the same type do not stack. Another is that two spells, rather than acting simultaneously, may be incompatible, so that one spell effect makes the other irrelevant.

The Righteous Might spell increases your size by one size category and adds a +4 "size bonus" to Strength and a +2 "size bonus" to Constitution. Since these bonuses are both "size bonuses," I assume that they both depend upon your size increase. So if you combine the Righteous Might spell with a Polymorph spell that changes your size category again, I assume that your "size bonuses" must also change, either up or down. In other words, in this case, I apply a specific exception to the general rule: effects that depend on an increase in size should become irrelevant if you change your size category again.

Then again, the Righteous Might spell also adds an enhancement bonus of +2 to your natural armor and endows you with damage reduction with respect to either Evil or Good aligned attacks. Neither one of these effects has anything to do with your size or shape. (An "enhancement" bonus to natural armor is magical, not physical.) Thus, I reason that you keep these effects no matter how you change yourself with a Polymorph spell. In other words, in this case, I apply the general rule that two or more magical effects may act on the same recipient.

These are of course my own judgement calls. Ask your dungeon master!

[Venger]

A516 correction Righteous might and polymorph stack. Polymorph does not confer a size bonus, so there is no issue with stacking.

[Kaleph]

Q 517

Are undead creatures immune to Boreal Wind?

[Venger]

A 517 No. There are many references in the rules text of the spell to how it affects inanimate objects. It just forgot the object tag in the save line and text trumps table.

[KillianHawkeye]

A 517 No. There are many references in the rules text of the spell to how it affects inanimate objects. It just forgot the object tag in the save line and text trumps table.

Re: 517

The Saving Throw line of a spell description is not a table entry. "Text trumps table" is irrelevant here.

[Inevitability]

A 517 Wouldn't "A boreal wind can do anything a sudden blast of wind would be expected to do." support the spell affecting undead as well?

[Kaleph]

A 517 Wouldn't "A boreal wind can do anything a sudden blast of wind would be expected to do." support the spell affecting undead as well?

That's more or less how I understand it.

Actually, boreal wind refers to gust of wind, which is "severe wind", that according to the DMG interacts normally with objects. So, the "severe wind" effect of Boreal Wind applies yo undeads.

Anyhow, the spell does more than that (more damage and bigger effects). I would assume that all effects work against undeads, just wanted a confirmation.

[Chronos]

Q 518:
How do player-crafted items count against WBL? Is it...
a) They count against WBL at full value
b) Half of the value of the item counts against WBL
c) The cost of the raw materials counts against WBL
d) Something else?

The distinction between b) and c) matters, for items made using spells with XP costs. For instance, most of the cost of a scroll of Wish, or of a stat-increasing tome, is due to the XP cost of the Wish spell, with the raw materials only being a small fraction of the item's total cost.

[Vaern]

Q 518:
How do player-crafted items count against WBL? Is it...
a) They count against WBL at full value
b) Half of the value of the item counts against WBL
c) The cost of the raw materials counts against WBL
d) Something else?

The distinction between b) and c) matters, for items made using spells with XP costs. For instance, most of the cost of a scroll of Wish, or of a stat-increasing tome, is due to the XP cost of the Wish spell, with the raw materials only being a small fraction of the item's total cost.

A 518

Character-Created Magic Items: A PC spellcaster created at a level higher than 1st can use any of the XP and gp you have awarded to make magic items, provided that she has the proper item creation feats and prerequisites.

A magic item crafted during character creation is treated no differently than if it had been crafted in-game. The cost of the raw materials counts against WBL, and the character also starts with reduced XP compared to the rest of the party due to having spent some on crafting equipment.

[Chronos]

OK, that's what I thought, but the net result is a character whose wealth is even more out of line with their level...

[Khedrac]

A 518 Contention
Wealth By Level is explicitly " a character of this level has this much wealth of items", thus it makes no difference whether they are created by the character or bought/found.

However, the Rule quoted for character creation is not the same thing as wealth by level - it is on how gold and xp are spend during character creation - so if the DM says "you have wealth-by-level gold" then it applies (but remember to deduct the xp).
It seems overpowered, but it is supposed to be balanced by having fewer other feats and by probably starting down a level (most campaigns start at starting xp for the assigned level) - failure to apply xp costs (a common house-rule) has bigger effects here than during play, as during play the item creator is usually able to create items for other party members too.

So, items created by the character count at full value for wealth-by-level, but will usually count as half price for creating high-level characters.

Claiming that the character "had the item creation feat and then retrained it out" to get the items at half-price plus retraining costs (usually conveniently forgetting the xp cost) is definitely cheese and should require DM approval. (Cue flying books.)

[Thurbane]

Q 519

Are there an LA+0 (with no RHD) races that have a tail*? Looking for a race that does not need a feat to achieve this (i.e. not needing Dragon Tail, Prehensile Tail or similar).

*Looking for a tail that can either attack for damage, or be specifically called out as being able to manipulate objects.

I have found Diabolus, but they are LA +1.

[Venger]

A 519 After combing the list I don't think there are any that grant a tail which attacks for a damaging attack without spending a feat or is textually called out as being able to manipulate objects. I thought the anthro animals such as lizard might be good candidates but despite the art drawing some of them with tails, raw dictates they do not have any natural attacks relying on a non-human physiology.

Hengeyokai's hybrid forms do not have natural attacks, and the possible animals you can turn into do not have tail attacks.

The closest I can get is shining south's beguiler which while it lacks a tail attack or text saying its tail can manipulate objects is depicted in its portrait using its tail to write with a pen.

[Vaern]

Q 520

A footnote in a table for a certain mechanic references a specific feat and notes that a character with that feat interacts with the mechanic differently from characters without that feat.
The description of the feat in question, within the same book, makes no mention of this mechanic or how the feat causes a character to interact with it differently. There is also no mention of this mechanic treating them differently in plain text elsewhere outside the table.

Does the character:
A) Interact with that mechanic normally as a case of text vs. table, since the table claims that the feat has effects beyond those listed in its description; or,
B) Interact with the mechanic as indicated by the table: The feat never claims that it doesn't grant effects beyond its description, and the footnote on the table isn't directly conflicting with its effects; therefore, there is no conflict demanding a test of text vs. table

[St Fan]

Q 520

A footnote in a table for a certain mechanic references a specific feat and notes that a character with that feat interacts with the mechanic differently from characters without that feat.
The description of the feat in question, within the same book, makes no mention of this mechanic or how the feat causes a character to interact with it differently. There is also no mention of this mechanic treating them differently in plain text elsewhere outside the table.

Does the character:
A) Interact with that mechanic normally as a case of text vs. table, since the table claims that the feat has effects beyond those listed in its description; or,
B) Interact with the mechanic as indicated by the table: The feat never claims that it doesn't grant effects beyond its description, and the footnote on the table isn't directly conflicting with its effects; therefore, there is no conflict demanding a test of text vs. table

A 520
It would sure be simpler if we were given the specific example rather than a theoretical, but I would say a footnote in a table is still part of the table. If no mention is made of it in the text, then text trumps table and it is ignored.

[Troacctid]

Q 520

A footnote in a table for a certain mechanic references a specific feat and notes that a character with that feat interacts with the mechanic differently from characters without that feat.
The description of the feat in question, within the same book, makes no mention of this mechanic or how the feat causes a character to interact with it differently. There is also no mention of this mechanic treating them differently in plain text elsewhere outside the table.

Does the character:
A) Interact with that mechanic normally as a case of text vs. table, since the table claims that the feat has effects beyond those listed in its description; or,
B) Interact with the mechanic as indicated by the table: The feat never claims that it doesn't grant effects beyond its description, and the footnote on the table isn't directly conflicting with its effects; therefore, there is no conflict demanding a test of text vs. table

If there is no conflict between two rules, then they both apply. Text vs. table only really matters in cases where they contradict one another. Many rules only appear in tables and are never mentioned in text; imagine what the statblock of a red dragon would look like if you ignored everything in its tables.

[Vaern]

A 520
It would sure be simpler if we were given the specific example rather than a theoretical, but I would say a footnote in a table is still part of the table. If no mention is made of it in the text, then text trumps table and it is ignored.

Specifically, the aging effects table in Races of the Dragon with a footnote saying that dragonwrought kobolds don't accrue penalties to their physical ability scores from ages, which is neither an effect granted by the dragonwrought feat, nor mentioned anywhere in the entire chapter regarding kobolds, nor is this a quality that is inherently granted by gaining the dragon type.

If there is no conflict between two rules, then they both apply. Text vs. table only really matters in cases where they contradict one another. Many rules only appear in tables and are never mentioned in text; imagine what the statblock of a red dragon would look like if you ignored everything in its tables.

The table containing the red dragon's attributes is within its own monster description, and only details abilities and qualities that are already described within its own description.
In my case, the table in question is in a completely different section from the feat in question, regarding a topic that does not concern the feat.
This would be akin to a table of aging effects for half orcs having a footnote mentioning that penalties due to age do not affect a character with the Widen Spell feat, despite this not being an effect of the feat.

[Thurbane]

Q 521

Questions(s) about lycanthropy and being undead.

Q 521A: If a lycanthrope becomes undead, does that remove the lycanthrope template (assuming it isn't an undead template that wipes out all special abilities; something like Corpse Creature for instance)? I'm assuming no, since templates only check at the time they are applied?

Q 521B: If the answer to above is no, is there anything about being undead that would make an afflicted lycanthrope no longer need to make Control Shape checks to avoid changing against their will, or avoid the Will saves to avoid changing alignment? If I'm reading correctly, being undead would change nothing about either of these.

[Vaern]

Q 521

Questions(s) about lycanthropy and being undead.

Q 521A: If a lycanthrope becomes undead, does that remove the lycanthrope template (assuming it isn't an undead template that wipes out all special abilities; something like Corpse Creature for instance)? I'm assuming no, since templates only check at the time they are applied?

Q 521B: If the answer to above is no, is there anything about being undead that would make an afflicted lycanthrope no longer need to make Control Shape checks to avoid changing against their will, or avoid the Will saves to avoid changing alignment? If I'm reading correctly, being undead would change nothing about either of these.

A 521A No. The rules for applying multiple templates says to pay attention to your creature type as a change in creature type may prevent you from taking certain additional templates later on; however, the section does not specify that taking a new template can invalidate an existing template.

A 521B Not in general, but there may be specific exceptions. For example, the lycanthrope's alternate form ability by which they assume different forms functions as polymorph, which liches are immune to (though they can still polymorph themselves; it may be debatable whether they can simply suppress an involuntary change if they are unwilling).

[St Fan]

Q 522

A spellcaster who takes the "Improved Spell Capacity" epic feat for the first time gets a 10th-level spell slot, plus any bonus spell slots granted by a high ability score.

While clerical domains are clear in that they only concern level 1-9, it is more open with specialist wizards (or domain wizards).

All the Wizard class says is "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day."
Similarly, "... a domain wizard gains one bonus spell per spell level...".

Does an epic specialist wizard or domain wizard gain an additional 10th-level spell slot (for spells of her specialty) with Improved Spell Capacity?

[Vaern]

Q 522

A spellcaster who takes the "Improved Spell Capacity" epic feat for the first time gets a 10th-level spell slot, plus any bonus spell slots granted by a high ability score.

While clerical domains are clear in that they only concern level 1-9, it is more open with specialist wizards (or domain wizards).

All the Wizard class says is "A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day."
Similarly, "... a domain wizard gains one bonus spell per spell level...".

Does an epic specialist wizard or domain wizard gain an additional 10th-level spell slot (for spells of her specialty) with Improved Spell Capacity?

A 522

Probably not. There is a sample necromancer in the Epic Levels Handbook who appears to have an extra bonus spell slot beyond what is normally granted by his wizard levels and intelligence bonus for levels 1st through 9th, but not at 10th and 11th. Beyond this one example, I can't find any mention of specialist spell slots.

Q 523

What happens when a creature has two different flight speeds from two different sources with two different levels of maneuverability? As a random example, say a character is currently under the effects of Flight of the Dragon (fly speed 100, average) then casts Fly (fly speed 60, good). Does the creature take the better of the two flight speeds with the better of the two maneuverability levels (giving a fly speed 100 with good maneuverability)? Or does the creature have to just pick one of the two sources of flight to use for a particular move action?

[St Fan]

Q 523

What happens when a creature has two different flight speeds from two different sources with two different levels of maneuverability? As a random example, say a character is currently under the effects of Flight of the Dragon (fly speed 100, average) then casts Fly (fly speed 60, good). Does the creature take the better of the two flight speeds with the better of the two maneuverability levels (giving a fly speed 100 with good maneuverability)? Or does the creature have to just pick one of the two sources of flight to use for a particular move action?

A 523
That's... a good question.

I would say the second option. Generally, when two separate but similar spells/powers are on the same creature, the better of the two applies for all things, and not a mix-and-match of their effects. So flying below 60 with a move action would grant a good maneuverability, while flying faster would downgrade it to average.

There might be very well a RAWer answer applying specifically to flight, mind you.

[St Fan]

Q 524

A cleric, being a prepared caster, can cast sanctified or corrupt spells like any of her cleric spells.

Does those sanctified or corrupt spells of levels 1-2 in the abjuration, divination or conjuration [healing] schools qualify to be transferred with imbue with spell ability like other cleric spells?

[Thurbane]

Q 525

Can you still attempt to grapple a creature in Gaseous Form? Does the creature get any kind of bonuses, or does the grappler get any penalties?


Q 526

An arrow can be used as an improvised melee weapon. If you use an arrow this way, it it still destroyed after a successful hit? There is nothing saying it isn't, so I'm assuming yes?