Feral Balance

[Rowanomicon]

OK, I know that it is generally accepted that this template is more powerful than the +1 that it is. However, it is still an awesome template and I'd like to use it so I want to figure out exactly what LA to give it. By my calculations it should be about +5.
What do you guys think?

On a side note Feral is quite clearly more powerful than multiple balanced (or maybe deserving 1 more LA) LA +2 Templates in the same chapter of the same book.

[brian c]

Um, +5 is outrageously high. I'd say make it a +2, and make the special abilities only count for Racial HD (which is probably what they meant, but I don't think they said that)

[Rowanomicon]

I was thinking that +5 was high, but I don't really think it's outrageous. Of course the biggest problem with LA is that there aren't that many perfectly balance LA races or templates out there (I can' think of any) what abilities are worth depends very much on the level of the character.
I also think that the LA buy-off rules, while an excellent option for characters with low LA (the lower the better) are too restrictive on higher LAs.

I agree with you that +5 is high, but I think +2 is low. That leaves us with +3 or +4. Perhaps +3 is the most balance option? As I said it is clearly more powerful than multiple +2 templates in the same book (templates which are, in fact, considered to be powerful for LA +2).

The way the rules are written the HD based abilities scale as a character gains levels. I think this should stay as at higher levels those abilities are not as awesome. Also I don't want to change the template or make decisions on what it was they meant; I just want to figure out a fair LA for the template as it exists.

Of course this brings up the the question of scaling Templates vs LA buy-off.

Hmm, perhaps I have stumbled onto another, bigger, issue, but that's not the point of this thread.

Can you give specific reasons for why you would give it the LA you would give it?

[deadseashoals]

Probably +2 if you make the special abilities only count for racial HD, and +3 if you don't. Compare it with half dragon.

[Neon Knight]

Probably +2 if you make the special abilities only count for racial HD, and +3 if you don't. Compare it with half dragon.

As half dragon is considered one of those "not worth it" templates, I don't think I would use it for comparison.

[Rowanomicon]

Well Half-Dragon seems fairly balanced to me (on the weak side of +3, but too powerful for +2), but it it's a weak +3 then maybe Feral is a balance +3.
Actually Feral seems to be pretty close to the same power level as Half-Dragon.

[JaxGaret]

Feral is balanced at +2. It's a complete hose, like Half-Dragon, at LA +3.

They should both be LA +2.

[deadseashoals]

Half dragon is fine. It's easily worth it at higher levels for a melee character, unless you're playing a martial adept. If it was LA +2, it would be too easily worth it, and everyone would want to be a half dragon. LA is a tough balancing act.

[Frosty]

How about Mineral Warrior?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Mineral warrior is broken period. Not many things have adamantine weps or are mad of 'tine, so I'd up it to +3. Want a DR that's almost DR/anything? Take a hit to levels you can't buy off using UA's buyoff rule.

[Rowanomicon]

So +2 seems to be the general answer, there' a hint of +3 out there as it's been said that feral is comparable in power to Half-Dragon and one person said Half-Dragon should stay +3.

I disagree that Mineral Warrior is just plain broken. It is undeniably powerful but DR is not totally broken. When looking at the DR just think to yourself at what level will characters be consistently overcoming it through sheer damage output? Now think about what level character could gain that DR and it would be a reasonable ability for them. Finally tack on a HD prerequisite to the template.
Characters get many abilities that are much more powerful than DR, thinking spells here mostly.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Um, +5 is outrageously high. I'd say make it a +2, and make the special abilities only count for Racial HD (which is probably what they meant, but I don't think they said that)

As written, the special attacks explicitly refers to monster HD while the special qualities does not.

So to get any special attacks you need to have some racial HD, which helps to balance that part.

The Special Qualities work the same way and is only be based on the base creature's monster HD. (Savage Species page 18)*

I think an LA +3 would be a bit over the top.



* Clarified in accordance with Closet Skeleton's post. (I thought it was in there somewhere)

[Closet_Skeleton]

The way the rules are written the HD based abilities scale as a character gains levels. I think this should stay as at higher levels those abilities are not as awesome.

The top of page 18 of Savage Species says no. This is a very controversial rule that lots of people ignore but according to Savage Species a static level adjustment can never represent abilities that increase with level.

[Rowanomicon]

OK, good stuff. I agree that a static level adjustment should not represent increasing abilities. Or that that it should either do that or be able to be bought off, not both.

Thanks for the clarification, I don't actually own SS and was going on my interpretation when I read the Feral template at my friend's house.

So, in that case +2 sounds pretty fair.