Yu-Gi-Oh! GX: Werewolf!

[Valmark]

The Shadow Riders will have a kill power as long as there is at least one in play.

Alright, then it does make sense to think Alpha could not be in game. Not 100% proof, but for obvious reasons that's to be expected.

Personally I'll go ahead thinking those mentioned in the fluff text are the wolves present, but keep an eye out for others.

[Rogan]

Caoimhin vote crossed out. Thanks, Rogan!

bladescape, can you elaborate on your Taffimai townread if there's any more detail than what you already said?

(Also if bladescape and I are ever wolves together we'll just bus each other to death.)

You know me, I like to be helpful. Especially when I'm a wolf and being helpful does not hurt me, but makes others like me.

I noticed a minor error / problem in my count.
gac, I have two votes from you.
You can see them in the Quotes for Votes spoiler in the post a bit above. on the previous page.

Vote Count:
bladescape(1?): (Book Wombat, before official start)
AvatarVecna(1): AvatarVecna
Taffimai (3): Snowblaze, Seandiggersby, Rogan
Snowblaze(1): CaoimhinTheCape
Book Wombat (1): bladescape
Batcathat(1?): (gac3, not crossed out)
Saint-Just (3): Supagoof, Taffimai, gac3
gac3 (2): Valmark, Batcathat

---

I think, Saint is a wagon for not being active yet? Thats not a very good reason. Especially since I think Xi told us she would like to get confirmation from the wolves. Saint wasn't online, therefore Saint is propably town.
This point is a bit Meta, but hey...

So... Goof, Taffi, Gac? Care to change your votes?

[CaoimhinTheCape]

@Batcat Can I have your opinion on Snow's Caoimhin vote? I don't like it. She has this thing with "I'm going to do something many people think is sus and I'll point it out that it's sus while I'm at it"

I know this wasn't directed at me, but Bladescape did a random vote/OMGUS on Book immediately before, just didn't call it such. Do you find that one suspicious too? Or just Snow's, since she called it what it was?

If not for the fact that I have never heard of you and therefore assume you are new, I would be voting for you based on that choice. However you have one day of benefit of the doubt because of being new.

I don't see what's wrong with Sean voting for Taff?

---

Gonna move my vote away from Snow, but not sure where. Normally I'd advocate for for voting someone who hasn't posted much (Saint-Just in this case) but it's also the holidays. Being busy in real life is more than reasonable now, so I don't think low posters are necessarily wolves trying to hide.

gac is an option, but their vote reasoning for BCH doesn't seem like a mafia move to me? No one was in danger yet and it would be just as fine to random vote with little explanation.

Gonna move to vote: Taffimai for now, so that my vote is somewhere that matters more.

---

(For anyone who doesn't know, OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, yoU Suck" and just means voting the person who voted for you with no other reason.)

---

Vote Count:
bladescape (1?): Book Wombat
AvatarVecna (1): AvatarVecna
Taffimai (4): Snowblaze, Sean, Rogan, CaoimhinTheCape
Book Wombat (1): bladescape
BatCatHat (1): gac3
Saint-Just (3): Supagoof, Taffimai, gac3
gac3 (2): Valmark, BatCatHat

[Snowblaze]

I've reached the inevitable stage of confusion and paranoia. What fun.

Xihirli didn't explicitly say she wanted the wolves to confirm. The below quote

Spoiler: Quote

Show

I did not expect an approval so early, so thank you either Flat_Footed or Truename.
In light of that, I am going to wait on a few people confirming they've gotten their roles before formally starting D1.

If you did not receive a way to contact me without PMs here on GitP with your message, I do not need your confirmation only your participation.

- - - Updated - - -



Thanks for the heads-up, pictures seem fine on my end.

could kind of be seen as implying that, but I don't think it's a valid reason to townread SJ. I do agree with not wagoning him just for being inactive, though.

...that being said, if he's a wolf then there's a good chance one of Rogan/Caoimhin is a partner.

[Rogan]

I don't see what's wrong with Sean voting for Taff?

If I remember right, it was a vote with no real reason, on a top wagon, putting it at 3 votes. Which might be an (inexperienced?) wolf going with the flow to cause a misslynch.

Hey, Sean? Would you mind telling us a little bit about you? Like: Do you have experience with Mafia games? Did you check some older games?
Also, do you have questions? Unless it's about something you would like to keep secret, feel free to ask. We won't lynch you for some innocent questions. Propably...

I've reached the inevitable stage of confusion and paranoia. What fun.

Xihirli didn't explicitly say she wanted the wolves to confirm. The below quote

could kind of be seen as implying that, but I don't think it's a valid reason to townread SJ. I do agree with not wagoning him just for being inactive, though.

...that being said, if he's a wolf then there's a good chance one of Rogan/Caoimhin is a partner.

What took you so long?

So, yeah, I was taking this quote as talking about the wolves, since Xi told us she made a discord server for the wolves and a graveyard. So the wolves almost deffinitly have a way to conntact her without using PMs.
Of course, it does not rule out certain town roles having such a way as well.

Currently my bet would still be, SJ ist Just a Saint. I mean, villager.
So we are partners, but Town partners.

@Xi What are your rules for inactivity? Is there auto-lynch? If yes, how long till it happens?

[Taffimai]

I think, Saint is a wagon for not being active yet? Thats not a very good reason. Especially since I think Xi told us she would like to get confirmation from the wolves. Saint wasn't online, therefore Saint is propably town.
This point is a bit Meta, but hey...

So... Goof, Taffi, Gac? Care to change your votes?

I did vote Saint-Just because he was the only one who hadn't checked in yet, figuring that by the time he got here I'd have a decent read on someone. However, looking at his profile, he hasn't been active on the forums at all since signing up for the game, so I think I'll be waiting in vain. That does beg the question: if Xihirli was waiting for activity either in thread or in wolf chat (which presumably was shared through the role PM so Saint-Just can't have access to it yet), is there any reason other than an oversight on Xihirli's part for why the game started? I can't think of one, so he's probably town.

...unless Xihirli didn't make a mistake, discussed his absence with the other wolves and they decided they were ok with starting the game anyway. Hm. Actually no, I'm leaving my vote where it is for now. When you don't have a strong wolf read on someone, mislynching an inactive is less of a loss than a townie.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but Bladescape did a random vote/OMGUS on Book immediately before, just didn't call it such. Do you find that one suspicious too? Or just Snow's, since she called it what it was?

No. Personally I think OMGUS is only mildly wolfy, and even less so at the start of the game when you're giving nonsense reasons anyway and your vote is still expected to move. What bothers me about Snow's post is that Snow is hyper-aware of whether her actions look town or wolf. You can see this in her reason for voting me:

And because "starting a counterwagon without admitting to doing so, with pretty weak reasoning".

In her mind 1) all players should always be aware of and care about whether their actions look town or not (because that's how she is herself) and 2) calling out your own suspicious actions somehow makes them better. I strongly disagree with both of those. Wolves care more about looking town than townies do, so lampshading your own actions looks to me like a wolf actively trying to look town. I have come to accept that extreme self-awareness is just a character trait for Snow, but it annoys me. She could've voted anywhere else, but instead she knowingly creates this ambiguity. I don't like it.

- - - Updated - - -

@Xihirli Could we please have an estimate of exactly when you're going to end the day? If I'm going to get lynched I'll want to leave reads shortly before EoD and I don't want to miss it. Do we count 48 hours from this post:

Turn One

Draw Phase Skipped
Standby Phase conducted
Main Phase One

Begin voting!

[Xihirli]

@Xihirli Could we please have an estimate of exactly when you're going to end the day? If I'm going to get lynched I'll want to leave reads shortly before EoD and I don't want to miss it. Do we count 48 hours from this post:

48 hours from that post is, I believe, Christmas. In the interest of not making everyone post on Christmas to get their votes in, I think I will end Turn One, Main Phase 1 at 4 PM New York Time on the 26th of Dodecuary.

Spoiler: Dodecuary

Show

Please refer to the following month chart, which does not have OCTober as the 10th month and DECember as the 12th.

Primuary
Bivember
Trí
Tetruary
Quint
Hexember
Heptember (September acceptable)
October
November
December
Undecimary
Dodecuary

[Rogan]

I did vote Saint-Just because he was the only one who hadn't checked in yet, figuring that by the time he got here I'd have a decent read on someone. However, looking at his profile, he hasn't been active on the forums at all since signing up for the game, so I think I'll be waiting in vain. That does beg the question: if Xihirli was waiting for activity either in thread or in wolf chat (which presumably was shared through the role PM so Saint-Just can't have access to it yet), is there any reason other than an oversight on Xihirli's part for why the game started? I can't think of one, so he's probably town.

...unless Xihirli didn't make a mistake, discussed his absence with the other wolves and they decided they were ok with starting the game anyway. Hm. Actually no, I'm leaving my vote where it is for now. When you don't have a strong wolf read on someone, mislynching an inactive is less of a loss than a townie.



No. Personally I think OMGUS is only mildly wolfy, and even less so at the start of the game when you're giving nonsense reasons anyway and your vote is still expected to move. What bothers me about Snow's post is that Snow is hyper-aware of whether her actions look town or wolf. You can see this in her reason for voting me:



In her mind 1) all players should always be aware of and care about whether their actions look town or not (because that's how she is herself) and 2) calling out your own suspicious actions somehow makes them better. I strongly disagree with both of those. Wolves care more about looking town than townies do, so lampshading your own actions looks to me like a wolf actively trying to look town. I have come to accept that extreme self-awareness is just a character trait for Snow, but it annoys me. She could've voted anywhere else, but instead she knowingly creates this ambiguity. I don't like it.

- - - Updated - - -

@Xihirli Could we please have an estimate of exactly when you're going to end the day? If I'm going to get lynched I'll want to leave reads shortly before EoD and I don't want to miss it. Do we count 48 hours from this post:

I don't think I like your line of thought. Sure, your explanation about a majority of wolves being willing to start with one man shot is possible, but I am not going to bet on this. Even if it turns out true, I could see a world where the wolves wan't to use this situation to gain credibilty by bussing. I don't think this is what will happen, but I could see it.
Your conclusion that lynching an inactive is better than a misslynch... Well, I'm a bit on the fence. If you misslynch someone active, you get to reread his posts with the knoledge of the allignment. You get to see who votet there, for which reasons. Thats some intel you are missing out.


About Snow...
I promise I will think about your words again if you die and turn out to be a villager. But right now I tend to think you are a wolf. Besides, independently of that, some people with more experience have read Snow as a villager.
Right now, my impression is, you are a wolf trying to throw some shade at her. It's easy to be paranoid about snow, after all.

[Taffimai]

48 hours from that post is, I believe, Christmas. In the interest of not making everyone post on Christmas to get their votes in, I think I will end Turn One, Main Phase 1 at 4 PM New York Time on the 26th of Dodecuary.

Thank you!

[Valmark]

I don't think I like your line of thought. Sure, your explanation about a majority of wolves being willing to start with one man shot is possible, but I am not going to bet on this. Even if it turns out true, I could see a world where the wolves wan't to use this situation to gain credibilty by bussing. I don't think this is what will happen, but I could see it.
Your conclusion that lynching an inactive is better than a misslynch... Well, I'm a bit on the fence. If you misslynch someone active, you get to reread his posts with the knoledge of the allignment. You get to see who votet there, for which reasons. Thats some intel you are missing out.


About Snow...
I promise I will think about your words again if you die and turn out to be a villager. But right now I tend to think you are a wolf. Besides, independently of that, some people with more experience have read Snow as a villager.
Right now, my impression is, you are a wolf trying to throw some shade at her. It's easy to be paranoid about snow, after all.

Agreed on the lynch inactive/misslynch. Town tipically doesn't want to lynch someone that partecipates little or someone absent- because you don't gain much from them in the long run. Exception could be if it was needed to test something.

[Snowblaze]

Yeah, I... don't really get Taffimai's suspicions of me. If my being hyper-self-aware is just a character trait then it's not suspicious.

I think I'm now officially wolfreading her.

[Taffimai]

Your conclusion that lynching an inactive is better than a misslynch... Well, I'm a bit on the fence. If you misslynch someone active, you get to reread his posts with the knoledge of the allignment. You get to see who votet there, for which reasons. Thats some intel you are missing out.

Since this seems to be a popular opinion, let me argue against it: if you never get rid of inactives, you end up like last game. Imagine if instead of Flame and Wombat it had been you and Caoimhin alive. My chances of winning would've been decidedly less, because someone would've found my lies (like Saint-Just actually did). It is in town's interest to keep active players alive as long as possible, if only because more interactions ergo more info to look at. In fact, your own reasoning contradicts your conclusion.

There is a chance, since the table in the central thread shows recruitment from the 10th to the 24th that Saint-Just saw that and will still show up. In that case, I promise to move my vote (or if one of you starts howling or some such).

About Snow...

Snow made a post (or a couple) I don't like. She's not my top wolf read. The problem is that my top wolf read is my top wolf read for the same reason I suspected Caoimhin last time, and this game I have no interest in getting the seeer killed.

[Rogan]

Since this seems to be a popular opinion, let me argue against it: if you never get rid of inactives, you end up like last game. Imagine if instead of Flame and Wombat it had been you and Caoimhin alive. My chances of winning would've been decidedly less, because someone would've found my lies (like Saint-Just actually did). It is in town's interest to keep active players alive as long as possible, if only because more interactions ergo more info to look at. In fact, your own reasoning contradicts your conclusion.

I Agree, I would have voted you last game. If I had been playing and alive, that is.
But that's not really conclusive, I had an outside perspective on the game.

You are missing one thing: info you don't access is no info at all. You need the flips to put the interaction into context.
And the public votes are towns primary way to choose who will flip. If you wait for wolves to do your job... well, surprise. Wolves don't like to give you Intel. They might lynch someone very dangerous to them or someone who is cleared as a townie, but otherwise...
The best chance to get someone killed who will yield Intel is by doing so yourself. It's not nice, but good and nice are not synonymous.

There is a chance, since the table in the central thread shows recruitment from the 10th to the 24th that Saint-Just saw that and will still show up. In that case, I promise to move my vote (or if one of you starts howling or some such).

Wuff!
I continue to dislike your stance. It's unlikely SJ will be able to give much input even if they come online on the 25 or something.
I'll take a guess here and say, many people will be rather inactive during the Christmas, so there won't be much interaction.
There is even more to it.
Going after someone with low activity to press them for information is somewhat fine, especially if you think they will react to this pressure, but going for someone who missed the game altogether is something worse.
From my perspective, you look like a wolf who finds herself in the spotlight of town. You are not ready to confess, but you think you will die/ get scried soon. So you don't want to give us any leads by voting for someone active.

Snow made a post (or a couple) I don't like. She's not my top wolf read. The problem is that my top wolf read is my top wolf read for the same reason I suspected Caoimhin last time, and this game I have no interest in getting the seeer killed.

Good for you! Getting Seers killed is my trademark!
But seriously... I have a very hard time to follow your line of thoughts. You have a wolf read, but don't want to tell us since you are afraid to lynch the Seer?
Unless someone has a serious Seer claim hidden somewhere (no, my Sig still is not serious), I fail to see who you might suspect as a Seer. It's day 1. Nobody used their powers, the only person with too much info are wolves.
And didn't you actually want to get the Seer killed last game?

Please give me some explanation for your post. There might be a misunderstanding.

[Taffimai]

Please give me some explanation for your post. There might be a misunderstanding.

At the beginning of last game I thought Caoimhin might be a wolf (and a bad one at that, sorry Caoimhin). It wasn't until he claimed that the pieces fell into place and I knew he was speaking the truth. Go look, I brought up the idea that he might be a fool, I came up with the "flipping Supagoof will be NAI" argument, I said that if nobody counterclaimed we should lynch the claimed seeer rather than their target while actually it should have meant that there was only one of them so he should be trusted. That post is just dripping with "I want to lynch me some seeer"-drool. And don't forget that had I not killed my fellow wolf that night, we would have won the next morning with a 3v3. I'm still kicking myself.

This game, someone is standing out to me for similar reasons to why I initially thought Caoimhin was a wolf - but now I know that they might be doing it on purpose. And no, it's not me. You (and the wolves) will have to find them yourself.

I Agree, I would have voted you last game. If I had been playing and alive, that is.
But that's not really conclusive, I had an outside perspective on the game.

...and that is why I voted to kill Libro. Didn't need no stinky fresh outside perspective.

[bladescape]

Caoimhin vote crossed out. Thanks, Rogan!

bladescape, can you elaborate on your Taffimai townread if there's any more detail than what you already said?

(Also if bladescape and I are ever wolves together we'll just bus each other to death.)

We kinda already did this in our first game.

Taff townread:
I see post
I see thought process
I nod
I hum.
I read new post
I see thought process
I nod

- - - Updated - - -

I would hardly say the read is definitive in any manner but

- - - Updated - - -

Updated reads:
Rogan feels towny but my successful reads on them have been threadstate so I'm holding off for rn.

Cao is iffy.

Gac is iffy.

Book's lack of further input is definitely iffy.

I'd vote in Gac/Cao so far.

But I can also leave it where it is.

[gac3]

Catching up now.

Because from the back you don't see the look on their faces!


Arguably true about Snow, but still if someone looks town it's possibly better to test them out in a way different from votes.

I would say that voting for someone who isn't around at the beginning doesn't yeld much information.

I lost track of how many times the logic I thought perfectly sensible either got me lynched or very nearly got me lynched.

To be fair, I'm not voting Snow but I do have ideas for how to test them. They are dumb though and I'm not sure they will work. I'll let you know after.

Well, there are two roles not explicitly mentioned in the recruitment thread. So they could be aliases and the wolves got to learn something about them. On the other hand, they were written in a way benefiting a villain, so them being town would be strange...
I wonder if it would be helpful if everybody would claim "named in OP", but I am afraid, it would be more helpful for the wolves. I'm still taking other opinions on that matter.

They are also a very wolf sided duo. The problems with Alexis have been called out already, partly here, partly in recruitment.
The ghost is a huge pain in the ass, since we will have to search a new wolf who could hide in the pile of previous locked town. Unless we are lucky and catch him early, this could completely screw with us. So I could imagine them being left out.
@The players of the first match: Do you remember what kind of roles were left out there?

@Sean: Yeah, welcome to the game!



Ah, this makes more sense. I guess we should take a look at the narrative on later days to check if you have more information than you should have and lynch you if your predictions come true!
Yeah, don't lynch Xi. This is not a bastard game
Sure, other roles can cause havoc as well, which might be more random - but those roles take more player input. This makes Alexis worse. Plus, unless you got a Seer result (which ain't gonna happen, cause I've got my super secret Seer slayer skill, as Xi will be happy to confirm) you don't know which wolf is which. So the knowledge is useless.

If we have two good suspects, we might be able to set things up so that one of them has one more vote than the other. If suspect nr 1 is Donny, we will know. But it would buy him one more day, which might or might not have an impact.



Was it this:


It looks like a very wolf sided take of the role.




I think they will count, but I asked this as well. Might have been overlooked?
That being said, I don't really like your comment about believing you, but it's something you definitely do as town, so I should not hold this against you. Especially since I think you are right.



I posted before the official start, so you bring things back into balance

Could I get a short opinion on the text of the OP? Do you think the named roles have a meaning? Or is it purely fluff?



Is there an online source saying the alpha gets to pick the team? Or why are you assuming he might get to do this?



You should at least skimm it. It should have a higher priority than googeling your Char. Unless you want to RP a bit? I would not mind!

---

I got some bad vibes from Taff and AV.
AVs stance about the game start seems contradictory, she definitely payed some attention to the game since the beginning but refused to vote since it would not change things and take too much energy. But her first vote was the usual self vote, which doesn't change a thing either. But AV always looks suspicious... and I don't really want to vote there, since she was the narrator last game (and still got killed). I also don't really see a reason for wolf AV to act this way.

Taff made some strange statements, but she could explain a lot in the replies. There are still some parts of her post that I don't really like, so I think she is a good wagon. But since she is in the lead (unless I missed some shifting of votes) and there is still enough time for things to change, I won't vote there right now.

- - - Updated - - -



Just stab them in a way that will make them die slowly. Plenty of time left to see the shock of betrayal!

Some wise person (I think it was Elenna) once (in UPick2, if I recall correctly) said, its would be a bad move to use a night action to verify someone as town if you think they are town.
So how would you suggest to test snow (unless telling us your method would allow her to fool you)?

I remember that either Joey or Kaiba was left out for the logic of "They will think I wouldn't leave this person out so bye bye to that role"

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not going mad.

And because "starting a counterwagon without admitting to doing so, with pretty weak reasoning".

I didn't realize Rogan had been voting. Will revote once I catch up but I crossed out my Saint vote because i saw they showed up.

- - - Updated - - -

I lost things in my previous multi-quote that I had intended to say:



I think I got that impression from a game here (don't remember which one) where Lex-Kat was "an alpha but also had beast powers" and she got to pick her team then, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.



FoS on Gac for making me think he was Rogan by talking in third person and using the same avatar.

Agreed. He is very suspicious.

[Rogan]

At the beginning of last game I thought Caoimhin might be a wolf (and a bad one at that, sorry Caoimhin). It wasn't until he claimed that the pieces fell into place and I knew he was speaking the truth. Go look, I brought up the idea that he might be a fool, I came up with the "flipping Supagoof will be NAI" argument, I said that if nobody counterclaimed we should lynch the claimed seeer rather than their target while actually it should have meant that there was only one of them so he should be trusted. That post is just dripping with "I want to lynch me some seeer"-drool. And don't forget that had I not killed my fellow wolf that night, we would have won the next morning with a 3v3. I'm still kicking myself.

This game, someone is standing out to me for similar reasons to why I initially thought Caoimhin was a wolf - but now I know that they might be doing it on purpose. And no, it's not me. You (and the wolves) will have to find them yourself.




...and that is why I voted to kill Libro. Didn't need no stinky fresh outside perspective.

Hmm... I might have to go and reread the last game to see how the timeline holds up.

Spoiler: tangent

Show

Oh, and I'm not sure if a 3/3 split would have ended the game, especially while they don't know each other. You accidentally killed an ally during the night, it could have happened during the day as well. But that's not really relevant right now.

If I squint enough, I might be able to see what you mean. But I'm not sure about this. And I don't really see the thing I saw as suspicious?
Maybe, I don't see the same thing you did.

...

One more reason to vote you! I was kind of hoping Libro would be subbed out and Emmy would decline the invitation. After all, I payed too much attention to the match anyway! (By the way, AV mentioned someone not in the game asked a thing... Well, hello! It's me)

Updated reads:
Rogan feels towny but my successful reads on them have been threadstate so I'm holding off for rn.

Cao is iffy.

Gac is iffy.

Book's lack of further input is definitely iffy.

I'd vote in Gac/Cao so far.

But I can also leave it where it is.

I wonder, is being hard to read an advantage or disadvantage? Anyway, your feeling about me is right this time. I promise!

Hm... I somewhat agree about Book, the Wombat should say some more. Cao and Gac... I don't know either way. I think your vote is okay where it is, especially considering you are townreading Taffi and therefore you won't go for that wagon. And SJ is a bad wagon.

[gac3]

You know me, I like to be helpful. Especially when I'm a wolf and being helpful does not hurt me, but makes others like me.

I noticed a minor error / problem in my count.
gac, I have two votes from you.
You can see them in the Quotes for Votes spoiler in the post a bit above. on the previous page.

Vote Count:
bladescape(1?): (Book Wombat, before official start)
AvatarVecna(1): AvatarVecna
Taffimai (3): Snowblaze, Seandiggersby, Rogan
Snowblaze(1): CaoimhinTheCape
Book Wombat (1): bladescape
Batcathat(1?): (gac3, not crossed out)
Saint-Just (3): Supagoof, Taffimai, gac3
gac3 (2): Valmark, Batcathat

---

I think, Saint is a wagon for not being active yet? Thats not a very good reason. Especially since I think Xi told us she would like to get confirmation from the wolves. Saint wasn't online, therefore Saint is propably town.
This point is a bit Meta, but hey...

So... Goof, Taffi, Gac? Care to change your votes?

I just realized that I thought this was a post from Saint when I skimmed. But also it's a pressure vote. Which they still haven't shown up at all. So its still better to mislynch an inactive townie than to mislynch an active townie.

[Rogan]

I remember that either Joey or Kaiba was left out for the logic of "They will think I wouldn't leave this person out so bye bye to that role"


I didn't realize Rogan had been voting. Will revote once I catch up but I crossed out my Saint vote because i saw they showed up.

Thanks for the answer to my question. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about any Char, so it would not help me figuring things out.

Sorry, but are you mixing up names here?

[gac3]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but Bladescape did a random vote/OMGUS on Book immediately before, just didn't call it such. Do you find that one suspicious too? Or just Snow's, since she called it what it was?




I don't see what's wrong with Sean voting for Taff?

---

Gonna move my vote away from Snow, but not sure where. Normally I'd advocate for for voting someone who hasn't posted much (Saint-Just in this case) but it's also the holidays. Being busy in real life is more than reasonable now, so I don't think low posters are necessarily wolves trying to hide.

gac is an option, but their vote reasoning for BCH doesn't seem like a mafia move to me? No one was in danger yet and it would be just as fine to random vote with little explanation.

Gonna move to vote: Taffimai for now, so that my vote is somewhere that matters more.

---

(For anyone who doesn't know, OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, yoU Suck" and just means voting the person who voted for you with no other reason.)

---

Vote Count:
bladescape (1?): Book Wombat
AvatarVecna (1): AvatarVecna
Taffimai (4): Snowblaze, Sean, Rogan, CaoimhinTheCape
Book Wombat (1): bladescape
BatCatHat (1): gac3
Saint-Just (3): Supagoof, Taffimai, gac3
gac3 (2): Valmark, BatCatHat

Sean was suspicious because they joined the biggest wagon by "randomly voting" and on an experienced player I'd be accusing them of not being random.

Also, is there a reason Taff is suspicious?

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We kinda already did this in our first game.

Taff townread:
I see post
I see thought process
I nod
I hum.
I read new post
I see thought process
I nod

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I would hardly say the read is definitive in any manner but

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Updated reads:
Rogan feels towny but my successful reads on them have been threadstate so I'm holding off for rn.

Cao is iffy.

Gac is iffy.

Book's lack of further input is definitely iffy.

I'd vote in Gac/Cao so far.

But I can also leave it where it is.

"I see thought process" is a completely unfair standard for which to base someones townieness on. I say this strictly because I cannot remember the last time someone followed my thought process.

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Thanks for the answer to my question. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about any Char, so it would not help me figuring things out.

Sorry, but are you mixing up names here?

When I said Rogan, I meant Rogan. When I said saint, I had been skimming before I actually started reading and responding and attributed a certain post to saint. That was not the case though.

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General note: If it wasn't Christmas, I'd be paranoid about AV right now due to not having seen posts that I would have expected to by now. But given many jobs and personal lives get busier for some people during this time, it might be that.

[Rogan]

Sean was suspicious because they joined the biggest wagon by "randomly voting" and on an experienced player I'd be accusing them of not being random.

Also, is there a reason Taff is suspicious?

The first thing is very much true.

About Taffi:

Alexis Rhodes - Wrench in every plan

I don't get why you call Alexis a wrench in every plan. Her night action is voluntary on the side of the wolf - who would be giving up the wolf team's hold on the dead chat (without Nightshroud we can keep helping in the hopes that the tombkeeper is in the game) as well as the replacement wolf since "winning" is not the same as "being destroyed". That's a terrible trade for a townie who has no way to actively help town and who will die with her brother anyways. Add to that the fact that we sign up to play much more than to win and I honestly can't see many players screw over their team like that. But Saint-Just called her disruptive in the recruitment thread as well, so perhaps there's something I'm not seeing? Can you give me an example of a plan that doesn't work because of a possible Alexis?

This post looks very much like a wolf's perspective in my mind. It points out how accepting the deal hurts wolves and how they would not do this. But that's the problem. Even under ideal circumstances (deal accepted), Alexis is not a good role for town.

That's my initial reason for the vote, but I don't think she is acting good under pressure either. I strongly disagree about her current vote and the reasoning for it.

When I said Rogan, I meant Rogan. When I said saint, I had been skimming before I actually started reading and responding and attributed a certain post to saint. That was not the case though.

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General note: If it wasn't Christmas, I'd be paranoid about AV right now due to not having seen posts that I would have expected to by now. But given many jobs and personal lives get busier for some people during this time, it might be that.

I was the first one to vote in general (for BCH) but it was before the official start.
As I said above, I didn't like some things from Taffi, but it didn't seem good enough to push the leading wagon even more. But then Snow corrected me and told me about some shifting votes, so I placed my vote where my mouth was before so things actually matter.

I hope this clears every confusion about my votes.

I voiced some concerns about AV before, but I don't think missing activity is among them. What kind of post would you expect?

[gac3]

See, the suspicions of Taff (from what I've noticed) seem to center around them starting a wagon without realizing it for a weak reason. That would be wolfy except one thing. I know there is logic for whether or not town benefits from lynching someone who hasn't said anything, but the real question is, what would wolves gain from it? If the idea is that its wolfy because they acted like they weren't starting a wagon when they did, then I don't see why wolves would care about a wagon on Saint, rather than someone like me (who is easy to justify votes for), Snow (who has a dangerous reputation), Book (who shows up just enough to potentially cause problems for wolves) or really anyone else. Saint doesn't seem like a high value target. ((Also I chose my examples based on potential wolf justifications for picking them. I am not trying to imply an active town read on any of them.))

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Ninja'd. Will read the new post and may change my stance.

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The first thing is very much true.

About Taffi:





This post looks very much like a wolf's perspective in my mind. It points out how accepting the deal hurts wolves and how they would not do this. But that's the problem. Even under ideal circumstances (deal accepted), Alexis is not a good role for town.

That's my initial reason for the vote, but I don't think she is acting good under pressure either. I strongly disagree about her current vote and the reasoning for it.



I was the first one to vote in general (for BCH) but it was before the official start.
As I said above, I didn't like some things from Taffi, but it didn't seem good enough to push the leading wagon even more. But then Snow corrected me and told me about some shifting votes, so I placed my vote where my mouth was before so things actually matter.

I hope this clears every confusion about my votes.

I voiced some concerns about AV before, but I don't think missing activity is among them. What kind of post would you expect?

Who is Alexis's brother? I didn't see any role when I skimmed through that seemed to have the same last name. The Truesdale ones have the same last name but I don't even known how her power works because idk who her brother is. Will weigh in after investigating that.

As for AV:
Its one of those things that my subconscious knows better than I do. I'm not sure I can explain it but I'll try. I have played with AV alot (I mean, we all have) but we usually chat privately a lot when there is open quick topics. On top of them being fairly active, they also are on a similar active schedule to me. So I know about when to expect posts from them. As for what they would say exactly, I can't be sure but I know there have been things that I would expect them to have thoughts on that fell during their normal activity window. Also due to being familiar with their activity window, I've noticed that when they don't seem to be following it, its normally either a sign of a wolf AV or an elaborate Town AV plot with lots of private lies. So since it's definitely not the second, I would already be more suspicious, except its two days before christmas. But if this was like June, I'd probably have a vote on them.

[Taffimai]

Agreed. He is very suspicious.

I read this, and I immediately refreshed the page to see if you'd go so far as to change your avatar to his new one as well
Which, btw, if very much appreciated Rogan!


@everyone since we're heading into what I expect to be a long period with low activity (but it's more aimed at the people who have weighed in only a little or not at all so I can try to get rid of some of my null reads): I know that it's hard to give wolf/town reads this early on, but could you go through the thread and find 3 statements that you agree with, and 3 that you disagree with, with maybe some comments please?

[bladescape]

"I see thought process" is a completely unfair standard for which to base someones townieness on. I say this strictly because I cannot remember the last time someone followed my thought process.

I mean I'll straight up admit that I have fossed you in most games because I can't =P

But that being said you usually show your towniness in other ways (eventually).

Also, it's less that "Seeing thought process" is the requirement but more that I don't usually see those from wolves. Wolves tend to be more disjointed. So seeing that is a towny indicator.

Can be faked by good wolves so it only holds so much water early tho.

[Taffimai]

Who is Alexis's brother? I didn't see any role when I skimmed through that seemed to have the same last name. The Truesdale ones have the same last name but I don't even known how her power works because idk who her brother is. Will weigh in after investigating that.

Spoiler

Show

It's Nightshroud, one of the wolves.

[Xihirli]

It's Nightshroud, one of the wolves.

Spoiler!
Geez

[Rogan]

See, the suspicions of Taff (from what I've noticed) seem to center around them starting a wagon without realizing it for a weak reason. That would be wolfy except one thing. I know there is logic for whether or not town benefits from lynching someone who hasn't said anything, but the real question is, what would wolves gain from it? If the idea is that its wolfy because they acted like they weren't starting a wagon when they did, then I don't see why wolves would care about a wagon on Saint, rather than someone like me (who is easy to justify votes for), Snow (who has a dangerous reputation), Book (who shows up just enough to potentially cause problems for wolves) or really anyone else. Saint doesn't seem like a high value target. ((Also I chose my examples based on potential wolf justifications for picking them. I am not trying to imply an active town read on any of them.))

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Ninja'd. Will read the new post and may change my stance.

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Who is Alexis's brother? I didn't see any role when I skimmed through that seemed to have the same last name. The Truesdale ones have the same last name but I don't even known how her power works because idk who her brother is. Will weigh in after investigating that.

As for AV:
Its one of those things that my subconscious knows better than I do. I'm not sure I can explain it but I'll try. I have played with AV alot (I mean, we all have) but we usually chat privately a lot when there is open quick topics. On top of them being fairly active, they also are on a similar active schedule to me. So I know about when to expect posts from them. As for what they would say exactly, I can't be sure but I know there have been things that I would expect them to have thoughts on that fell during their normal activity window. Also due to being familiar with their activity window, I've noticed that when they don't seem to be following it, its normally either a sign of a wolf AV or an elaborate Town AV plot with lots of private lies. So since it's definitely not the second, I would already be more suspicious, except its two days before christmas. But if this was like June, I'd probably have a vote on them.

I guess, having someone who can't defend himself is not too bad of a misslynch target for the wolves. In addition to that, it's a very easy justification as well. Easy and not limited to one alignment.
It's also in the interest of wolves to kill in a way that won't yield much info. Thats mostly true for night kills, since they can target them in private, but it's also something they might do during the day.

About Alexis Brother, it's easy to miss, but it was discussed a bit in the recruitment.

You are possessing the body of an unwilling host whose name is definitely not important. Surely it couldn’t be the only missing person alluded to in the game.

About AV:
Okay, so it's not some specific post you are missing, but her regular activity pattern in general.
I guess this is a fair point and pointing out the timing of posts / scedule is especially good. Otherwise, it would sound a bit like the usual "It's always AV" banter.
But yeah, I think Christmass is a valid explanation for limited activity. In addition, I would not like to vote AV day 1 without a good reason, since she was the narrator last game.

[gac3]

I read this, and I immediately refreshed the page to see if you'd go so far as to change your avatar to his new one as well
Which, btw, if very much appreciated Rogan!


@everyone since we're heading into what I expect to be a long period with low activity (but it's more aimed at the people who have weighed in only a little or not at all so I can try to get rid of some of my null reads): I know that it's hard to give wolf/town reads this early on, but could you go through the thread and find 3 statements that you agree with, and 3 that you disagree with, with maybe some comments please?

Lol i didn't even realize Rogan changed. There are. A few people who I identify by their avatar but mostly I try to ignore it.

Spoiler

Show

It's Nightshroud, one of the wolves.

Ah yes. I assumed from context that it had to be a wolf. I'll double check after posting but Night Shroud sounded like a role that having a townie that could get rid of them by sacrificing their self might be a useful tool. I need to reread their role.

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I guess it depends. Is the destruction=townie power a one time thing? Or is it like each time. I guess it has to be a one time thing right?

[Rogan]

I read this, and I immediately refreshed the page to see if you'd go so far as to change your avatar to his new one as well
Which, btw, if very much appreciated Rogan!


@everyone since we're heading into what I expect to be a long period with low activity (but it's more aimed at the people who have weighed in only a little or not at all so I can try to get rid of some of my null reads): I know that it's hard to give wolf/town reads this early on, but could you go through the thread and find 3 statements that you agree with, and 3 that you disagree with, with maybe some comments please?

Funny fact: The avatar was 'no avatar at all' which will still show an avatar in mobile mode. Maybe I'll ask if in the technical forum some time later... Anyway, right now I'm the paladin. Seems fitting

And somehow, I always end up complying when my top wolf read asks for some input... At least, this time I had my vote on them before!

If we had an 8/5 split we'd be at lylo tomorrow. So I doubt that's where we're starting.

Thats something I can agree with, but it's too easy.

You can vote if you want. But since we have no evidence against anybody yet, the only purpose of voting would be randomly having a wagon pop up that puts pressure on people so we can see how they react to pressure. And pressure can't exist yet because the game hasn't started - the countdown to death is not yet moving.

That's something I disagree. Seeing yourself with the most votes is pressure, even without a started countdown. It might be a bit less stressfull, but still, you need to get rid of some votes. Or get someone else to have even more votes. And, as Snow and Cao proved during UPick2, if you accidently got more votes than you anticipated, getting rid of them can be tricky. Especially if the alternative wagon is another wolf (which is unlikely to aply here).

To add:

My point is that voting is already a lil weak D1, and that's extra-true when game hasn't even started yet. WW sucks up enough of my energy when it's already started (and not Christmas season, for that matter), I'm not spending an extra half day on mental energy on it that's literally incapable of affecting the final result just cuz a couple people are antsy.

Placeholder vote on AvatarVecna.

Selfvoting as a placeholder is not realy better than not voting at all. In AVs favor: I don't see why a wolf would want to stand out like this (not the self vote in itself, thats typical AV, but the combination oft the refusal to vote, followed by a self vote).

I disagree about Nightshroud/Alexis not being in the game - it seems like this is a unique pair of roles and if I was running, I'd be hesitant to cut something like that.

Sarcasm aside, an actually welcome to Seandiggersby. Hope you enjoy the game!

Disagree about those roles. They were critticiced in the recruitment, so they could make sense to remove.
However, I am willing to agree to this: If Alexis is in the game, her brother Nightshroud will be in the game as well. Not neccesarily the other way round.

Totaly agree about the welcome to Sean, but I can hardly count this for my 3 likes/dislikes

@Batcat Can I have your opinion on Snow's Caoimhin vote? I don't like it. She has this thing with "I'm going to do something many people think is sus and I'll point it out that it's sus while I'm at it" and I really wish she would stop doing that. On the one hand, there were plenty of other random votes possible so why. On the other hand I was expecting her to vote for me (right down to the formulation of her reasoning for it) so maybe the only reason it's pinging me is that it's subverting my expectations.

She might be more self aware, that much is true. But I disagree that this is a bad thing.

If not for the fact that I have never heard of you and therefore assume you are new, I would be voting for you based on that choice. However you have one day of benefit of the doubt because of being new.

Also I should Google my character since I'm unfamiliar with any non Yugi Motto part of the franchise

Agree that the vote was not handled well. Agree that a new player should get the benefit of doubt.

Somewhat disagree about searching for the char, unless gac intends to use this for roleplay or something.
On it's own, it's irrelevant to the game, so it should not get priority.

Arguably true about Snow, but still if someone looks town it's possibly better to test them out in a way different from votes.

I would say that voting for someone who isn't around at the beginning doesn't yeld much information.

Yeah, there are very few, very specific situations where voting for somebody who looks town is a good move.

Also yeah regarding not much info for voting inactives.

I did vote Saint-Just because he was the only one who hadn't checked in yet, figuring that by the time he got here I'd have a decent read on someone. However, looking at his profile, he hasn't been active on the forums at all since signing up for the game, so I think I'll be waiting in vain. That does beg the question: if Xihirli was waiting for activity either in thread or in wolf chat (which presumably was shared through the role PM so Saint-Just can't have access to it yet), is there any reason other than an oversight on Xihirli's part for why the game started? I can't think of one, so he's probably town.

...unless Xihirli didn't make a mistake, discussed his absence with the other wolves and they decided they were ok with starting the game anyway. Hm. Actually no, I'm leaving my vote where it is for now. When you don't have a strong wolf read on someone, mislynching an inactive is less of a loss than a townie.


No. Personally I think OMGUS is only mildly wolfy, and even less so at the start of the game when you're giving nonsense reasons anyway and your vote is still expected to move. What bothers me about Snow's post is that Snow is hyper-aware of whether her actions look town or wolf. You can see this in her reason for voting me:

In her mind 1) all players should always be aware of and care about whether their actions look town or not (because that's how she is herself) and 2) calling out your own suspicious actions somehow makes them better. I strongly disagree with both of those. Wolves care more about looking town than townies do, so lampshading your own actions looks to me like a wolf actively trying to look town. I have come to accept that extreme self-awareness is just a character trait for Snow, but it annoys me. She could've voted anywhere else, but instead she knowingly creates this ambiguity. I don't like it.

Agree about SJ being propably town. It's not a beyond all doubt read, but it's better than most of my town reads. If SJ joins and acts suspicious, I can reevaluate.

Partly disagree about lynching inactives. The loss of an active player is certainly worse than the loss of an inactive. But the intel gained by learning without any doubt the alignment of an active player is much more useful intel than learning the inactive, propable townie, is in realy an inactive townie.

I don't particular like the way you state the way Snow is thinking. But it will be interesting to hear Snows own words about this as well. So...
@Snow: would you like it if other people would care more about how they look?

Book's lack of further input is definitely iffy.

Posting once, so you know the game has started, but not posting more than this is anoying and I don't like it.
It's definitly worse than not realizing the game has started at all.
So if you (generaly speaking) would like to aply pressure to someone silent, Book would be a better target than Just.

I just realized that I thought this was a post from Saint when I skimmed. But also it's a pressure vote. Which they still haven't shown up at all. So its still better to mislynch an inactive townie than to mislynch an active townie.

I think it's interesting that gac and Taffi have such a similar position regarding this matter. I'm not sure if this would be too obvious for them to be partners, but I won't rule it out.


Now, I didn't count my replies, but it feels like more than 3 likes / 3 dislikes.
Are you satisfied, Taffi?


Oh, and before I forget it:

I guess it depends. Is the destruction=townie power a one time thing? Or is it like each time. I guess it has to be a one time thing right?

It can't be an always thing, unless there is someone who can block this ability. But it would be bad design to create a role which can only be defeated by a very limited number of specific powers.
But it reminds me of another question for Xi:

If the ghost posesses another body, which abilitys will the resulting wolf have?

[gac3]

Crap. I need to pick someone to vote for.

I just don't know who. It's one of those where nobody stands out except maybe Taff, who I'm starting to understand the logic behind voting them. But voting Taff doesn't add anything at this point since they are currently two above the next highest wagon (if I'm remembering votes right... Actually, am I at 3 votes yet). So I could try to get a competing wagon to draw out more info but my one vote won't do much for that on top of, I don't have a good candidate for a competing wagon. The stress almost makes me want to self vote but I'll think of something. We still have time.

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I'll also look to add 3 agrees and disagrees but probably not until the night of Christmas Eve