How big could the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park actually be?

[snowblizz]

Just don't trust hippos. The more you learn about hippos, the more absolutely terrifying they are. They take down apex predators whenever they damn well feel like it, for chrissake! LOOK HOW WIDE THEY CAN OPEN THEIR JAWS THEY CAN SNAP YOU IN HALF FOR THE LULZ

I can't help it, they wink their ears at me and I just melt.

On the subject of territorial herbivores, also beware the Cape Buffalo which is also extremely aggressive and territorial.

And another thing on the hippo front - whilst they like to spend most of their time in water (not surprising at their size) they are a 1.5 tonne animal that can run (on land) at about 30mph (48 kph) - that's faster than an elephant, slightly slower than a rhino and faster than Usain Bolt's peak speed! At that speed and weight it doesn't need to bite you, it can just trample you!

It's ok, Rich Burlew has taught me Hippos only charge when provoked.

[Rater202]

Blue Whale gestation period is half that of the elephant, with newborns being twice as large and about as massive as adult female elephants.

Blue whales are crazy.

Ph'nglui f' wgah'nagl ph'nglui gn'th, n'ghftor whales ah'legeth fhtagn!

Seriously, everything you say about Blue Whales makes them sound like they're just a couple of tentacles short of being some kind of horrific elder thing.

[Peelee]

Ph'nglui f' wgah'nagl ph'nglui gn'th, n'ghftor whales ah'legeth fhtagn!

Seriously, everything you say about Blue Whales makes them sound like they're just a couple of tentacles short of being some kind of horrific elder thing.

The more you learn about them, the more unreal they sound.

For reals, if we didn't live at the same time, it'd sound like they were just made up.

[Traab]

Hippos are hair triggered murder machines. Dolphins are sick twisted r*pe machines who torture and torment other sea creatures for fun. At least with the hippo its over quick. They bit you in half and you die. A dolphin might decide to force you to swim till you are too exhausted to move, then satiate their lusts as you drown. BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY DO THAT. The Mountain that Rides would be disturbed if he ever watched dolphins in action. Thats how sick they are.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Bottlenose dolphins also slaughter entire porpoise pods, because the porpoises (it is theorized) remind them of baby dolphins, and trigger the same sort of instinct that leads lions to kill the cubs of lionesses they claim from defeated rivals. That may not quite catch up to the acts Traab mentioned, but it's still messed up.

[Traab]

Bottlenose dolphins also slaughter entire porpoise pods, because the porpoises (it is theorized) remind them of baby dolphins, and trigger the same sort of instinct that leads lions to kill the cubs of lionesses they claim from defeated rivals. That may not quite catch up to the acts Traab mentioned, but it's still messed up.

I think we can call that genocide so yeah, that catches up a bit. :p

[Manga Shoggoth]

Ph'nglui f' wgah'nagl ph'nglui gn'th, n'ghftor whales ah'legeth fhtagn!

Seriously, everything you say about Blue Whales makes them sound like they're just a couple of tentacles short of being some kind of horrific elder thing.

Nope. That's their lunch.

EDIT: Nope - thinking of sperm whales and collossal squid...

[Peelee]

Oh, dolphins do all sorts of messed up things. But my point remains is that they are typically playful with humans and have even been noted to save people's lives, while they are pure carnivores, while some herbivores are quite frankly murder machines. So the kids in Camp Cretaceous saying "that dink is an herbivore, we're not in any danger" is by no means a sound basis to judge whether they are in danger or not.

Heck, even the original JP novel spells out how triceratops will charge and kill you if they can see you (but for some reason the red stripe on the jeeps mitigates this effect, and they don't know why).

[Azuresun]

Do you by chance have a link to that article, or remember where you saw it? I've got a son who would be exceeding interested in reading it.

Found it!

https://www.quora.com/Theoretically-...eded-this-size

On the subject of territorial herbivores, also beware the Cape Buffalo which is also extremely aggressive and territorial.

And another thing on the hippo front - whilst they like to spend most of their time in water (not surprising at their size) they are a 1.5 tonne animal that can run (on land) at about 30mph (48 kph) - that's faster than an elephant, slightly slower than a rhino and faster than Usain Bolt's peak speed! At that speed and weight it doesn't need to bite you, it can just trample you!

Even cows are more dangerous than you might think if they're angry or scared. Turns out that when you breed an animal to produce a lot of meat (muscle), you also make it really strong.

[halfeye]

Found it!

https://www.quora.com/Theoretically-...eded-this-size



Even cows are more dangerous than you might think if they're angry or scared. Turns out that when you breed an animal to produce a lot of meat (muscle), you also make it really strong.

That might technically be the case, but the bulls to be wary of, back when bulls were kept in fields, were the Friesians (milk), and not so much the Herefords (beef), though it still depended more on individuals and mood.

[Peelee]

That might technically be the case, but the bulls to be wary of, back when bulls were kept in fields, were the Friesians (milk), and not so much the Herefords (beef), though it still depended more on individuals and mood.

A friend in high school has a small cow farm. I helped tend to them when I slept over for the weekend. So personable anecdote, take for what it's worth, but...

Cows can be ****ing scary, dude. Not bulls. They didn't have bulls. Cows. They week as much as a small car, you don't, and if they're annoyed, they know it.

[Grim Portent]

On the cow note, highland cow mothers are famously aggressive when they have calves. Which is a shame, because the calves are adorable as hell and there are a few cow breeds who seem to just want to introduce their babies to humans.


Interesting as Blue Whales are, I think the Sperm Whale is a touch more... epic I suppose. They dive into the lightless depths where the mere pressure would crush most animals to do battle with humongous sharks and colossal squid, and bear the scars of said battles upon their hide. They are also of course still a very respectable size.

[halfeye]

A friend in high school has a small cow farm. I helped tend to them when I slept over for the weekend. So personable anecdote, take for what it's worth, but...

Cows can be ****ing scary, dude. Not bulls. They didn't have bulls. Cows. They week as much as a small car, you don't, and if they're annoyed, they know it.

Cows sometimes try it on if they don't know you, and will take the micky if you let them, and they're certainly heavy, though bulls where they exist tend to be heavier. However, back in the day before AI was a big thing one of the benefits of keeping cattle was the ability to put up "beware of the bull" signs to keep out trepassers.

[loky1109]

Oh, dolphins do all sorts of messed up things. But my point remains is that they are typically playful with humans and have even been noted to save people's lives, while they are pure carnivores

We just don't have testimony of people who was killed by dolphins instead of saving.

Dolphins are smart enough to be very different. There are evil dolphins, there are good dolphins, there are totally *******s. Cases of dolphin's attacks recorded, but helpful dolphins are more known.

[Mechalich]

We just don't have testimony of people who was killed by dolphins instead of saving.

Dolphins are smart enough to be very different. There are evil dolphins, there are good dolphins, there are totally *******s. Cases of dolphin's attacks recorded, but helpful dolphins are more known.

Dolphins are generally gape-limited animals, mostly swallowing prey whole rather than ripping and tearing it apart prior to consumption. As such humans are almost entirely outside of the 'prey' column for all but the very largest species (notably Orcas), which means dolphins are unlikely to utilize predatory responses with regard to humans. This is an important contrast to large sharks, which do occasionally confuse humans with prey animals at least until the first bite after which they generally realize they've made a mistake, and more notably crocodiles, which absolute accept humans as a potential prey item and will thrash and shake you apart and consume you. Crocodiles are the absolute winner in terms of animals actually hunting humans, though it's still a tiny fraction of animal related deaths - the overwhelming majority of which involve bite-related disease or venom.

[Rater202]

My understanding is that whether or not a crocodile or related animal sees humans as potential prey varies based on the size, location, and history of the animal in question.

A zoo croc used to having a human handler drop food over the fence every so often probably won't see full-grown humans as prey... But the fact that it expects humans to provide it with food means it'll probably approach and cause problems regardless, and it might think that the squirmy pink thing the human is carrying in its arms is food and not a smaller human.

Ont he otherhand, a wild croc might actively hunt humans, if it gets big enough that it needs large prey and there aren't easier pickings.

[Peelee]

My understanding is that whether or not a crocodile or related animal sees humans as potential prey varies based on the size, location, and history of the animal in question.

A zoo croc used to having a human handler drop food over the fence every so often probably won't see full-grown humans as prey... But the fact that it expects humans to provide it with food means it'll probably approach and cause problems regardless, and it might think that the squirmy pink thing the human is carrying in its arms is food and not a smaller human.

Ont he otherhand, a wild croc might actively hunt humans, if it gets big enough that it needs large prey and there aren't easier pickings.

Crocodiles do not care. There's a video where a crocodile bites another crocodiles leg off and eats it, solely because the leg happened to be near its mouth.

[Rater202]

Crocodiles do not care. There's a video where a crocodile bites another crocodiles leg off and eats it, solely because the leg happened to be near its mouth.

I mean, yes, a hungry predator will eat whatever's convenient. For crocodiles, who can eat basically anything and are known to see 'rival' crocs as prey, that would include the limbs of a nearby croc.

I'm referring specifically to predation. A Zoo Croc or a show Gator probably sees humans as more a provider of food than as food in and of itself and thus probably won't actively predate humans unless desperate. Especially if it was born in captivity.

As opposed to a wild croc, who can and will hunt whatever's convenient.

It should also be noted that crocodiles are known to be smart enough to hold grudges—Graham at the Australia Zoo has a tenacity greater than just a formerly wild animal wishing to be free. The way he behaves indicates that he actively resents the zoo staff for keeping him prisoner and he had a special enmity for Steve Irwin, who captured him in '88. The Zoo staff are all pretty sure that Grham can tell Robert Irwin is Steve's son becuase the enmity seems to have transferred over.

So, chances are, the croc that ate the other croc's leg knew full well what it was doing. They're not just mindless eating machines.

...Of course, then you have examples of Gustave the Burundian Nile Crocodile who is rumored to kill humans for fun, but Gustave isn't exactly a typical crocodile.

[hamishspence]

I figure "eating just the leg" instead of "actually trying to kill the other croc" is at least partly territorially -

other croc gets too close, they pull limb off - other croc retreats - attacker eats the limb because it's nearby food - but the attack wasn't for food but simply to drive the other croc away.

Might depend how close the two crocs were in size. If it was very big croc attacking very small croc, as opposed to almost same size, "for food" rather than "to drive rival off" makes more sense.

[Peelee]

This was in some sort of controlled environment. It was a croc pen, they looked well fed, and both werre close in size. I'd link, but would rather stay on the safe side. Easy to find the video on YouTube, though.

IIRC, crocs are ambush predators and not hunters. And have no qualms about eating humans if they want to.

[hamishspence]

I figure it's mostly the big ones that see humans as food - the kind of croc that preys on wildebeest, zebra, and so on.

[Grim Portent]

Crocodiles are odd creatures, they can be quite social among their own kind, but they can break out into what to humans seems like spontaneous violence. Presumably to the crocodiles it's a bit more obvious most of the time, because they'll recognise the subtle body language and full range of vocalisations, but sometimes it's going to be the equivalent of a drunken Glaswegian deciding to knife someone because they don't like their accent.

In captivity they can be trained to respond to cues, there's a few rescued alligators that have been trained to associate food with a specific signal (the one I'm most familiar with knows food is coming when an orange frisbee is flashed at him) so they don't associate every human interaction with food, and some can become very amenable to human contact.

A similar thing happens with snakes, sometimes they get confused about when a human is interacting with them to provide food and when it's to clean or handle them, my snake has learned to identify his feeding tongs and otherwise doesn't go into a feeding response. Some people feed them in special tubs so they associate the tub with food to avoid the risk of them associating a hand coming into their setup as a feeding signal.

[Squire Doodad]

Man, I really want to be involved in a dinosaur discussion, but I don't have anything to say about it right now.

Key things to keep in mind are
*oxygen levels
*size of animals on the trophic pyramid
*ability to have sufficiently big children - much easier for reptiles than mammals.

[loky1109]

As such humans are almost entirely outside of the 'prey'

It is true. But. Dolphins can attack humans not for food, but for fun. Orcas at times play with prey, even sexual assault it. Literally.
Smaller dolphins can help drowning human or drown him. As like them can do same for another dolphin.

A Zoo Croc or a show Gator probably sees humans as more a provider of food than as food.

This is too complicate for regular crocodile.

They're not just mindless eating machines.

Until they hungry.

I figure "eating just the leg" instead of "actually trying to kill the other croc" is at least partly territorially -

other croc gets too close, they pull limb off - other croc retreats - attacker eats the limb because it's nearby food - but the attack wasn't for food but simply to drive the other croc away.

Might depend how close the two crocs were in size. If it was very big croc attacking very small croc, as opposed to almost same size, "for food" rather than "to drive rival off" makes more sense.

I watched this video.
This was a mistake. Croc missed meal, but bite another croc's leg. Accidentally.

*ability to have sufficiently big children - much easier for reptiles than mammals.

This isn't true.
Reptiles is strongly limited by eggs. Maximum egg size is about ostrich's egg. More and it can't breath.

[hamishspence]

Key things to keep in mind are
*oxygen levels
*size of animals on the trophic pyramid
*ability to have sufficiently big children - much easier for reptiles than mammals.

Oxygen levels weren't vastly higher than our own during the gigantism period, and may have been lower:

Oxygen concentration varied throughout the Mesozoic (not surprising, it was a really long time), but may have actually been significantly below current levels during much of the Triassic and Jurassic, while being somewhat higher during the Cretaceous. The period of time in Earth's history with notably high oxygen levels was the Carboniferous, famous for massive arthropods.

[Squire Doodad]

Oxygen levels weren't vastly higher than our own during the gigantism period, and may have been lower:

Yes, I'm saying that is something to take into account, whether they're higher or lower.
It is possible that [Sauropod of choice] could physically not get bigger because of oxygen levels, but in a different time period could.

[Khedrac]

Reptiles is strongly limited by eggs. Maximum egg size is about ostrich's egg. More and it can't breath.

Reptile eggs are not usally hard shelled - I think the normal description is "leathery".
That said, dinosaurs (particularly later dinosaurs) are not really reptiles, in may ways they are closer to birds, so that does not mean that they did not have hard-shelled eggs.

So one quick Google search later it seems that most dinosaurs did have hard-shelled eggs, but they evolved it seperately for each dinosaur tree! From this I don't think that we can safely assume that the oxygen permeability of the eggshell matches that of bird eggs, of which the largest known is not the ostrich, but the extinct elephant bird of Madagascar which was 7 times the volume of an ostrich egg. So, could oygen have penetracted larger dinosaur eggs? Ask a specialist.

[hamishspence]

So one quick Google search later it seems that most dinosaurs did have hard-shelled eggs, but they evolved it seperately for each dinosaur tree! From this I don't think that we can safely assume that the oxygen permeability of the eggshell matches that of bird eggs, of which the largest known is not the ostrich, but the extinct elephant bird of Madagascar which was 7 times the volume of an ostrich egg. So, could oygen have penetracted larger dinosaur eggs? Ask a specialist.

Typically, it's claimed that thanks to porosity limits, the elephant bird's egg is almost as big as a hard-shelled egg can be.

https://epod.usra.edu/blog/2019/03/h...n-eggs-be.html

[GloatingSwine]

I don't trust Dolphins. They are too friendly. They are up to something, I swear I heard o...*aaaugh*.

Never trust a species that grins all the time, it is up to something*.

* If you don't know what dolphins get up to when you're not watching and you want to have any illusions left about them as a species, don't go looking, they're as bad as humans.

Reptiles is strongly limited by eggs. Maximum egg size is about ostrich's egg. More and it can't breath.

Not all reptiles are oviparous, about 15-20% are viviparous, and a very small number are both. Sometimes even at the same time. (three toed skinks can lay eggs and give live birth within the same clutch)

[hamishspence]

Not all reptiles are oviparous, about 15-20% are viviparous, and a very small number are both. Sometimes even at the same time. (three toed skinks can lay eggs and give live birth within the same clutch)

Yup. While I don't know if any dinosaur species have been confirmed as live-bearers, I think Ichthyosaurs (in a different prehistoric reptile family) definitely have.