New player who keeps on poking holes into my world economy

[paladinofshojo]

Okay so I have gotten a new player who is slowly turning into “that guy”. He isn’t much of a problem in game as he mechanically knows his role as a bard and is able to synergize well with the rest of the party.

The main problem is is that he had put a lot of points into knowledge (history and local to be exact). Now this wouldn’t be a problem seeing as I assumed he put them in to get a bonus in bardic knowledge checks…. However, this guy is apparently working on a Masters in Macroeconomics IRL so here’s what usually happens.

*Party went through a stereotypical dungeon filled with goblins and hobgoblins*

Me: After slaying the hobgoblin chieftain and his elite guards, you all search the room in the deepest part of the lair, you find a massive chest.

*Rogue searches for traps, it’s clean and they open it, party finds a small purse of 50 gold coins*

Bard: Cool, who minted these?

Me: Excuse me?

Bard: Who minted the coins? What is the name and face on them?

Me: Err, King Carolus Rex III…

Bard: Cool, so is he the reigning king or did he reign in the bygone past?

Me: He is the current King’s grandfather, so he reign ended over 80 years ago.

Bard: Cool, these should be worth more than double the current coins in circulation at least, correct?

Me: Excuse me? How?! Inflation doesn’t work like that…

Bard: You told us at the beginning of the campaign that the kingdom is going through a massive famine and is recovering from a bloody war that lasted for 13 years correct? And that even at the end of the war, the King was still paying foreign magical mercenaries right?

Me: Yes?

Bard: Well, no state can afford such a prolonged war and maintain its own economy at the same time due to sheer cost and logistics. You claimed that food prices had remained fixed by city rationing ensured that there would be no food riots during the war, correct?

Me: Yes?

Bard: All of this while using gold coins… correct?

Me: Yes?

Bard: Therefore the Kingdom must have lowered the amount of gold in mint, which allowed them to pay off their foreign mercenaries and at the same time keep their own economy intact. Unless of course, there is some other factor I am missing…

Me: *grinding my teeth annoyed*


*Party enters a new city*

Bard: I roll a knowledge check

Me: this port city is run by several merchant guilds under the stewardship of a long line of hereditary Princes hailing from a noble lineage of the city’s original founder. It is an independent city-state unaffiliated with the Empire to the North or the Caliphate to the East, as such it is a hub of trade and commerce, garrisoned by a city guard as well as an order of battlemages .

Bard: Cool, what’s the exchange rate?

Me: Excuse me?

Bard: Well this is an independent city-state right? So they should be minting their own money, which means there should be an exchange rate. Since this city has strong trade ties with the Empire AND is dependent on the Empire’s navy to patrol the seas for piracy, I am assuming that Imperial Crowns have a favorable conversion rate?

Me:…. Sure


I mean, I try to make my world as immersive as possible but this guy is taking the fun out of it…

I also don’t want to confront him about it since he genuinely is interested in the minutia of the economics, no matter how boring and dull it is for me, the guy who is basically god of the world he is asking about.

[The Glyphstone]

Instead of fighting him, can you recruit him? Give him some basic parameters and let him go nuts on the economic worldbuilding to help you.

[Lord Raziere]

Politely tell him that you are not as interested or good at he is at his own subject matter, that you probably never will be, and that you wordbuild details that you consider relevant primarily and any details he is curious about is secondary and probably made up on the spot and that you cannot keep up with everything he wants. you have limits, and you have to tell him that. either that honestly answer that you don't know and have to think about it when he asks you a question you don't have an answer to then move on and enough times hopefully he'll get the message that if he asks too much he'll just break the illusion for himself.

[Kraynic]

Okay so I have gotten a new player who is slowly turning into “that guy”. He isn’t much of a problem in game as he mechanically knows his role as a bard and is able to synergize well with the rest of the party.

So he is new. Cool! To me, this seems like a good time to have a chat with the group as a whole (so you aren't just singling out this poor newbie) about how in depth you are willing to take economics. It might be worth adding to your "session zero" topics of discussion in the future, so that everyone knows where you stand on this.

For example, in my games (fantasy but not D&D), coins from different nations may be shaped differently or may be embossed differently, but they all weigh the same for various values. The only time the exact origin would be an issue would be when there is a war on, and then the merchants of the 2 different sides are likely to either not take the opposing side's coin, or will charge more to accept that other coin. Where ever the group has been adventuring will generally determine who's coinage they have. There is a market for antique coins, but that sort of thing is usually handled through brokers, and takes time to find buyers giving a higher income for the weight if the group is willing to wait for the money to trickle in. If the group wants to make money off the economy, then they need to do it the traditional way. If there is a famine, go somewhere food is plentiful and cheap, buy and transport that to where there is a famine, and sell for a much higher price. Buy things that are cheap there (because people are selling/trading things to get food) and take those somewhere that people have money that isn't tied up in a famine. These places will likely not be real close together, making plenty of opportunity for adventure in simply protecting your investment during transport.

Of course, that last might not be acceptable to you. I don't run modules, and wouldn't mind running a trading caravan game. The point is to figure out how in depth you are willing to go and making sure your players know. And to do that without running off what is hopefully just an enthusiastic newbie instead of "that guy".

[Grod_The_Giant]

Politely tell him that you are not as interested or good at he is at his own subject matter, that you probably never will be, and that you wordbuild details that you consider relevant primarily and any details he is curious about is secondary and probably made up on the spot and that you cannot keep up with everything he wants. you have limits, and you have to tell him that.

This, very much this, but...

Judging by the kind of interactions the OP posted, I get the impression that the player is looking more for exploits than engaging with the setting. That's worth bearing in mind when you have your polite conversation.

[Martin Greywolf]

I also don’t want to confront him about it since he genuinely is interested in the minutia of the economics, no matter how boring and dull it is for me, the guy who is basically god of the world he is asking about.

Okay, so the guy has a basic understanding of economics, the questio is, is he using it out of personal interest, or is he using it to sneak things past you? Let's see.

Bard: You told us at the beginning of the campaign that the kingdom is going through a massive famine and is recovering from a bloody war that lasted for 13 years correct? And that even at the end of the war, the King was still paying foreign magical mercenaries right?

[...]

Bard: Therefore the Kingdom must have lowered the amount of gold in mint, which allowed them to pay off their foreign mercenaries and at the same time keep their own economy intact. Unless of course, there is some other factor I am missing…

This line fo reasoning is pretty much 100% dead wrong, to a point where I'd expect anyone with education in basic money system philosophies to catch it. Gold is not a fiat currency, and while you can cause an infaltion of a specific kind of coin, this happens because it either has less gold in it or people believe so on account of rampant counterfeiting.

Problem is, this makes a lot of assumptions out of hand, without consulting you - there are enough kingdoms around that didn't see massive devaluation of currency in times of war simply on account of having a convenient gold and/or silver mines. Mercenaries not checking how much are they really paid also tends to not happen, at least not over the long term, and so on.

This is pretty clearly an example of using your knowledge to coerce a favorable outcome out of someone who isn't as much an expert as you happen to be by quietly making extremely favorbale assumptions you tell no one about.

Bard: Well this is an independent city-state right? So they should be minting their own money, which means there should be an exchange rate. Since this city has strong trade ties with the Empire AND is dependent on the Empire’s navy to patrol the seas for piracy, I am assuming that Imperial Crowns have a favorable conversion rate?

Again, 100% dead wrong. Independent city states did not always use their own currencies, and what exchange rates were depended only and solely on amount of precious metal in coins, to a point where a lot of medieval accounting uses what is essentially a weight unit for silver rather than any amount of coins.

Also, merchants are perfectly happy to scalp the officiers of friendly navies.

This is a bit less egregious of an error, I'd expect anyone stuying middle ages to catch it, but not necessarily someone who is just a student of finance.

I mean, I try to make my world as immersive as possible but this guy is taking the fun out of it…

From what I've seen, this guy is most likely trying to sneak things past you, whether deliberately or unconsciously. Unless you manage to recruit him to create your economics for you, you need to straight up tell him to stop doing that stuff, and that all monetary prices you tell them are meant to be understood as "amount of precious metal" rather than actual coins used.

[Lord Raziere]

This, very much this, but...

Judging by the kind of interactions the OP posted, I get the impression that the player is looking more for exploits than engaging with the setting. That's worth bearing in mind when you have your polite conversation.

I mean if we're looking at it with that in mind, probably start saying he needs to keep rolling checks for more information. emphasize what his character knows, not what he knows.

[King of Nowhere]

Instead of fighting him, can you recruit him? Give him some basic parameters and let him go nuts on the economic worldbuilding to help you.

Politely tell him that you are not as interested or good at he is at his own subject matter, that you probably never will be, and that you wordbuild details that you consider relevant primarily and any details he is curious about is secondary and probably made up on the spot and that you cannot keep up with everything he wants. you have limits, and you have to tell him that.

you need to straight up tell him to stop doing that stuff, and that all monetary prices you tell them are meant to be understood as "amount of precious metal" rather than actual coins used.

Do all those three

And don't necessarily think of this guy as disruptive. he could be a great asset, if he's willing to play this immersive in the world.
Unless he's only trying to take advantage of his superior knowledge. in which case yes, he's disruptive.

[False God]

So, long story short, you were unprepared for someone who was really interested in the "money" angle of a game.

Been there.

Advice follows: Just say no. When someone starts asking about inflation just say "No, the kingdom has been really lucky to not have to deal with that." As mentioned above, real-material-currency systems don't really experience inflation as we do with fiat currency. Further, provided the kingdom uses the same weighting system, ie: 1 gold piece now is the same weight as 1 gold piece 80 years ago, the older piece would still be worth the same as the newer piece. It's arguably not even old enough to be a collectors item.

When they ask about "exchange rates" between countries, just tell them "No, the kingdoms worked that out, their gold is all close enough to the same weights to be valued at the same amount." Exchange rates are, by-and-large, an invention of modern banking in order to allow the bank to make money off being in the middle of large transfers of money. Your player is likely attempting to game the system and making money on margin by currency trading. That's a fairly new trick that just wouldn't work in a more traditional D&D setting.

If they object that "these things would exist!" tell that no, they don't and remind them that you determine how the setting works, and that you're not terribly interested in running a complex international market-system, because ya know, it's a lot of work for very little benefit to the game.

If he continues to object your "No" moves from "No, I'm not including this in the game." to "No, you're not included in the game, please leave."

Keep in mind while doing this: None of this is an argument. It's not a debate. You're not trying to convince him you're correct. You're in charge, end of story.

ALSO: upon re-reading, I note you never asked him why he wants to know these things. It's possible there may be some misunderstanding, but a simple "Why do you want to know?" could clear things up in either direction.

[JNAProductions]

I'll echo the following sentiments:

1) Talk to the player. This should honestly be the first step for almost any conflict or problem at the table.
2a) If they're legitimately interested in this kind of stuff, get them to help out!
2b) If they're just trying to finagle some kind of advantage, ask them politely to stop. You give the rewards you give, and it takes more than some fast talking at the time of pickup to make it worth more.*
3) If all else fails, just let them know that you're not an economist, or hell, even if you are, you don't want to think that deeply in your magical elf game. It ain't gonna be perfect, and they'll need to accept that.

Spoiler: *

Show

If the PCs do some kind of long-con to make their loot seem far more impressive than it really is, and therefore get 1,000 GP from 50 GP worth of rewards, that's fine. But it should require a lot more than just finding 50 GP, saying it's worth more than 50 GP, and suddenly getting 100 GP out of it.

This is all my opinion, by the way, not some kind of pure truth of D&D. But I hope it helps!

[paladinofshojo]

This line fo reasoning is pretty much 100% dead wrong, to a point where I'd expect anyone with education in basic money system philosophies to catch it. Gold is not a fiat currency, and while you can cause an infaltion of a specific kind of coin, this happens because it either has less gold in it or people believe so on account of rampant counterfeiting.

So you’re saying is that those “valuable historic” coins that the bard is carrying may just happen to be counterfeit…tell me, what is the usual penalty for counterfeiting in the Middle Ages? Decapitation? The stocks? Losing a hand?

I want it to be “authentic” after all?

Problem is, this makes a lot of assumptions out of hand, without consulting you - there are enough kingdoms around that didn't see massive devaluation of currency in times of war simply on account of having a convenient gold and/or silver mines. Mercenaries not checking how much are they really paid also tends to not happen, at least not over the long term, and so on.

Yeah, the problem is that I didn’t think that through… I didn’t exactly flesh out the economics nor thought much of these factors.


When he joined up he had a neat folder and notepad where he asked about “which kingdoms would my character know about?” As well as asking “what are the economies of such and such locations” I just assumed he wanted to be prepared for roleplaying because his character is the disinherited son of a wealthy merchant.

So I just gave him generic answers to go off of “port town”, “agrarian”, this town makes good wine, etc.

He then kept on asking about taxation… which I was like… “ughh yes… the serfs pays a quarter of their crop to their lords… and in the cities, the freedmen and commoners have to pay around 5-10% of their yearly income to their local government… which in turn pays taxes to the king/emperor?”

Completely making it up as we went along.

This is pretty clearly an example of using your knowledge to coerce a favorable outcome out of someone who isn't as much an expert as you happen to be by quietly making extremely favorbale assumptions you tell no one about.

Isn’t that what all finance is?

Again, 100% dead wrong. Independent city states did not always use their own currencies, and what exchange rates were depended only and solely on amount of precious metal in coins, to a point where a lot of medieval accounting uses what is essentially a weight unit for silver rather than any amount of coins.

Also, merchants are perfectly happy to scalp the officiers of friendly navies.

This is a bit less egregious of an error, I'd expect anyone stuying middle ages to catch it, but not necessarily someone who is just a student of finance.

That would have been nice to have known that earlier… I will take that in consideration moving forward.

[Martin Greywolf]

So you’re saying is that those “valuable historic” coins that the bard is carrying may just happen to be counterfeit…tell me, what is the usual penalty for counterfeiting in the Middle Ages? Decapitation? The stocks? Losing a hand?

I want it to be “authentic” after all?

Uh, horrifically tortured, for you nad relatives to the third degree, loss of titles and land for relatives to seventh degree, about on par with attempted assassination of a king. There were several incidents that were more or less full scale civil wars, massive armies armed with cannon and all, that started over people minting when they didn't have a right to. The nobles of the time were well aware that leaving this unchecked will destroy trust in their coinage, and them as rulers by extension.

Yeah, the problem is that I didn’t think that through… I didn’t exactly flesh out the economics nor thought much of these factors.

[...]

He then kept on asking about taxation… which I was like… “ughh yes… the serfs pays a quarter of their crop to their lords… and in the cities, the freedmen and commoners have to pay around 5-10% of their yearly income to their local government… which in turn pays taxes to the king/emperor?”

Completely making it up as we went along.

The problem is that economics is a very complicated subject, and medieval economics even more so, since we lack a lot of the base data. I've tried, for the past 10 years, to figure out "okay, how did life work in high medieval period in Hungary specifically", and I still have huge gaps in knowledge. I could tell you several's book worth of tales in taxation (there were several taxes, special taxes, royal taxes, noble taxes, business taxes, ...), medieval checks (you have those starting at about 1200 and they used more often than hard currency in city-to-city trade) and so on, but these are all mind-numbingly boring and extremely specific to time and place. Figuring out how these are interconnected is... probably impossible. There's a reason why you can't get a straight answer to "how much did a sword cost in medieval times, in dollars?" - I did a few calculations on that particular question, basing the price off of gold, beer, bread and land, and the costs varied by orders of magnitude.

Trying to get more stuff every time is just not a great move to pull as a player, because even attmepting it demands the amount of knowledge roughly equivalent to a Bachelor's degree at least.

And finally, an awful lot of games that track wealth, like DnD, assume there is a certain amount of inherent value to their gold pieces. A DnD gold piece is as much a function of game balance as it is of verisimilitude - screw around with it too much and you can see things fall apart. That's why I suggested the "gp is meant as a measure of precious metal" angle, it effectively shuts down edbates, and is fairly close to how business was (often) done in middle ages. Even if it does make me want to pull my hair out when sale prices of four different horses in the same year are listed in weight in silver, silver coins, foreign silver coins and gold coins, and I just want to know which horse was more expensive.

[icefractal]

He's using knowledge to gain an edge ... but is that even wrong? When people think outside the box and do something like drop a big stalactite on a dragon instead of just fighting it normally, that's lauded and presented as "how you should play the game". Maybe not at every table, but in the D&D zeitgeist overall.

And honestly none of what he's done seems like anything to really worry about ... oh no, the party got 100 gp instead of 50 gp. Really, that doesn't seem like a big difference - if they're poor peasants, either one of those is a life-changing amount, and if they're more typical D&D adventurers then neither is a big deal. Ditto with the exchange rate thing - what's he going to do, get a 10% discount? Not going to change anything unless you have a precision-tuned economy designed to keep PCs just on the edge of poverty, which is sounds like the OP doesn't.

That said, it's fine to just say - "I don't have detailed economic info. This city is a thriving seaport which has been fairly stable for about 50 years, fill in details as appropriate to that."

And I'd second the idea of recruiting him to fill in those details. This should also prevent any exploits that rely on a really implausible economic setup, because you can ask him: "Why'd you set it up that way?" I'd expect he'll still get some reasonable advantage with cunning moves because ... that's what PCs do!

[NichG]

Definitely play along rather than fight over it.

But don't be afraid to use the chain of logic as an opening to drop hooks that he'll feel compelled to follow up. E.g. 'while that makes sense, when you compare a new coin to an old coin you find that they have the same density. How very strange! It makes you wonder what secret the royals had in other to make to keep the coins flowing...'

Then you can throw in deals with devils, hidden treasures, sale of national historical artifacts, etc, and rather than just turning 50gp into 100gp now he has a mystery to pursue.

If you really do need to shut down something (like an infinite loop), time, contacts, and market caps are your fallbacks. Yes he can sell goods for more than he paid, but this particular city has 95% of it's trade in those goods locked in to existing supply agreements, and the remaining 5% consists of a few hundred or a few thousand gold per year worth of profit margin available. But go here sparingly and if you must, don't be afraid to have the conversation start from the ends and ask him to fill in the middle, e.g. 'you will at most be able to generate 200gp or 10% on your investments into goods whichever is lower per new town you visit by trading goods or doing currency arbitrage, so if you want to work it out, you can tell me what that implies about those town economies'

[snowblizz]

There is one important thing to remember. All modern economics builds on the actors being rational maximisers of utility. It does not cope with magic.

Magical wizards stole some of the gold out of the old coins when you come to weigh them. The moneychanger has a magical scale that screws the customer over. And when you complain well naturally he paid off the authorities. just Wizard Did It. His textbooks does not provide answers to wizards.

Isn’t that what all finance is?

Who told you that?!? You were not supposed to know this. Keep moving, nothing to see here. Please wait while the IMF sends someone out to sort you out.

[Jedaii]

Okay so I have gotten a new player who is slowly turning into “that guy”. He isn’t much of a problem in game as he mechanically knows his role as a bard and is able to synergize well with the rest of the party.

The main problem is is that he had put a lot of points into knowledge (history and local to be exact). Now this wouldn’t be a problem seeing as I assumed he put them in to get a bonus in bardic knowledge checks…. However, this guy is apparently working on a Masters in Macroeconomics IRL so here’s what usually happens.

*Party went through a stereotypical dungeon filled with goblins and hobgoblins*

Me: After slaying the hobgoblin chieftain and his elite guards, you all search the room in the deepest part of the lair, you find a massive chest.

*Rogue searches for traps, it’s clean and they open it, party finds a small purse of 50 gold coins*

Bard: Cool, who minted these?

Me: Excuse me?

Bard: Who minted the coins? What is the name and face on them?

Me: Err, King Carolus Rex III…

Bard: Cool, so is he the reigning king or did he reign in the bygone past?

Me: He is the current King’s grandfather, so he reign ended over 80 years ago.

Bard: Cool, these should be worth more than double the current coins in circulation at least, correct?

Me: Excuse me? How?! Inflation doesn’t work like that…

Bard: You told us at the beginning of the campaign that the kingdom is going through a massive famine and is recovering from a bloody war that lasted for 13 years correct? And that even at the end of the war, the King was still paying foreign magical mercenaries right?

Me: Yes?

Bard: Well, no state can afford such a prolonged war and maintain its own economy at the same time due to sheer cost and logistics. You claimed that food prices had remained fixed by city rationing ensured that there would be no food riots during the war, correct?

Me: Yes?

Bard: All of this while using gold coins… correct?

Me: Yes?

Bard: Therefore the Kingdom must have lowered the amount of gold in mint, which allowed them to pay off their foreign mercenaries and at the same time keep their own economy intact. Unless of course, there is some other factor I am missing…

Me: *grinding my teeth annoyed*


*Party enters a new city*

Bard: I roll a knowledge check

Me: this port city is run by several merchant guilds under the stewardship of a long line of hereditary Princes hailing from a noble lineage of the city’s original founder. It is an independent city-state unaffiliated with the Empire to the North or the Caliphate to the East, as such it is a hub of trade and commerce, garrisoned by a city guard as well as an order of battlemages .

Bard: Cool, what’s the exchange rate?

Me: Excuse me?

Bard: Well this is an independent city-state right? So they should be minting their own money, which means there should be an exchange rate. Since this city has strong trade ties with the Empire AND is dependent on the Empire’s navy to patrol the seas for piracy, I am assuming that Imperial Crowns have a favorable conversion rate?

Me:…. Sure


I mean, I try to make my world as immersive as possible but this guy is taking the fun out of it…

I also don’t want to confront him about it since he genuinely is interested in the minutia of the economics, no matter how boring and dull it is for me, the guy who is basically god of the world he is asking about.

You as D/GM can decide how money works. You're letting a player with a knowledge of Economics dominate your game. Why? YOU, the D/GM decide that. It's YOUR setting. The problem is your lack of control/knowledge of your own setting.Scrubbed

[JNAProductions]

You as D/GM can decide how money works. You're letting a player with a knowledge of Economics dominate your game. Why? YOU, the D/GM decide that. It's YOUR setting. The problem is your lack of control/knowledge of your own setting. {Scrub the quote}

Generally, a DM focuses on the fun bits of the world, for them and for players. The economy, for D&D, is usually NOT that.

Plus, the DM in this case is trying to keep a consistent, sensible, and fun world. They’re not doing anything wrong-from what they’ve said, they could be former with their role, but I’d hardly call “wants to help the players have fun” laughable. It’s what a good DM should do.

[Brother Oni]

Bard: Therefore the Kingdom must have lowered the amount of gold in mint, which allowed them to pay off their foreign mercenaries and at the same time keep their own economy intact. Unless of course, there is some other factor I am missing…

Yes, they did what the Edo era Japanese did; switched to a fiat currency AND debased their coinage from ~80% fine silver to ~20% fine silver, so a silver coin minted as a 1 monme coin was still worth 1 monme internally, but worth 1/4 of its original value to external traders who wanted payments in fine silver silver. They did this to restrict flow of external goods into Japan (I can't get into the reasons why in this forum), but as for a reason why a Kingdom would would to do it here; the mercenaries are now locked in their contracts, being paid in a currency that's worth a quarter of its face value elsewhere in the world.

They can either choose to cut their losses and pay the penalty fee for breaking their contracts, stick it out and leave at the end of of their contracts (with 25% of their original expected pay) or stay with the kingdom, buying only that kingdom's goods and hence re-circulating all that money back into the kingdom's economy.

If your bard gets it into his head to start counterfeiting coins (like melting down the purer coins and debasing them), simply have him caught, tortured and executed with the rest of the party also being strung up as fellow conspirators (as Martyn said, they took counterfeiting VERY seriously as it was a direct attack on the power of the ruling class).

Just because he's working towards a Masters in modern macroeconomics, doesn't mean he has an understanding of medieval economics and the shenanigans that they got up to (I'd be surprised if he was aware of ursury laws, for example), or their fantasy counterparts. Maybe your countries have unusual restrictions on certain business practices as veering too far into the unethical attracts the attention of the devil of money (Mammon in the FR universe)? Having a malign deity actively interfering in the economic process and/or laws to limit that deity's influence would certainly make significant chunks of his knowledge useless.

That said, I second what the others say - try talking to him and getting him to help with your world building. He may just be interested in that side of things and wants to spread his knowledge, rather than trying to pull a fast one. And if he is trying to pull a fast one, then either tell him to stop or he's going to find his character hanging from a noose after being drawn and quartered for counterfeiting or burnt at the stake as a follower of Mammon (although a more poetic death would be something along the lines of how Viserys died in a Game of Thrones, with having molten gold made from his counterfeit coins poured over his head).

[KineticDiplomat]

It might be worth pointing out that the practical economy for the players in D&D is built creating an exponentially more expensive set of capabilities while the players gain exponentially more loot, all with the intent of keeping player power levels on a pre-designed curve.

Any attempt to understand the economy as some organic system involving the exchange of goods and services rather than a power curve is going to rapidly crash and burn in mighty, mighty, flames. So...

Yeah. It's not going to take the Chicago faculty to find some holes in the world. Trying to argue about specie is like trying to argue that HP isn't a realistic representation of being chopped with a hatchet. Sure, yes, self evidently there are gaping holes that have been lit on fire. Also, irrelevant if you want to play D&D as D&D. I

[Milodiah]

Given a high level wizard can open a permanent gate to the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Gold or whatever, you'd best remind him that many basic real world assumptions about economics just...don't work.

And if you try to make it work, like I have in the past, you can only get so far before you realize the scope of the madness you've embarked on. Is it more or less economically viable to mine iron ore, smelt it, refine it, forge it, and temper it, or cast Wall of Iron (which explicitly creates permanent, nonmagical iron), and then either cut it with adamantine saws or cast Fabricate?

[paladinofshojo]

You as D/GM can decide how money works. You're letting a player with a knowledge of Economics dominate your game. Why? YOU, the D/GM decide that. It's YOUR setting. The problem is your lack of control/knowledge of your own setting. {Scrub the quote}

I didn’t become a DM to have to create an economy for one player to exploit though….

Up until now, the “economy” in my world was secondary

[False God]

I didn’t become a DM to have to create an economy for one player to exploit though….

Up until now, the “economy” in my world was secondary

And their point is that shouldn't change.

[dafrca]

This has been a great thread to read. Some wonderful posts.

My opinion is if he is just pulling stuff, shut it down. But if he is really curious and interested, recruit him as has been suggested. It might turn into something real fun for him as well.

Several years ago, I was in a campaign as a player. The GM happen to say after one of the first sessions he wished he had not started it. I asked him why, he said he hated to track time for things like overland travel. To make a long story short, I asked if I could help. I ended up tracking for him two items. The large map and the calendar. He would feed me things he wanted to add such as "Add a few small villages along this road please". When we elected to go from one local to another I was tell the players how long it woudl take from point X to point Y. The in game the GM woudl have things happen and I woudl note them in the calendar and on the map. It was a blast helping and it made me more invested in both the game and the world. The campaign lasted just over 14 months and I still have my excel sheets and noted I took in the same folder as my character.

Did it mean I spent some out of game time with the GM to make sure I had what he wanted, yes. Did he several times say how much he appreciated the help, yes. So I say if he is honestly interested, recruit him.

[Brother Oni]

I didn’t become a DM to have to create an economy for one player to exploit though….

Up until now, the “economy” in my world was secondary

You might want to point him at the anime 'Spice and Wolf' or 'Ascendance of a Bookworm' so that he can get his late medieval/Renaissance macroeconomics fix, if you're not interested in running a medieval trade game and he's unwilling to help provide more verisimilitude on your world's economy.

[erikun]

One method is, now that you are outside the game, come up with some explanation that you can use in future situations with the player (or other players) who start bringing up the same questions. This thread has been good for this. Saying that all coins are pure gold - and so their value won't vary - and that one coin is as good as another coin - if weighing the same - can be handy answers for other coin/money issues in the future. One gold coin being 1/50th pound of pure gold, or whatever, can be a useful explanation for future situations as well.

Other method is, as other people have mentioned, just recruiting the player. Mention that you aren't focused on the economy as they are, ask what might be changed to make it more interesting. But do point out that you won't be implementing every minor point that can come up. It does need to be a system you can manage, and the simplest system (outside "all gold coins are the same") is just going to be taxing every money exchange - which might not be that fun to play around. You could add a bit of mystery there - perhaps coins from two kingdoms don't mix frequently, so seeing a bunch of the foreign currency would stand out - but that's likely not the economics situation your player is hoping for.

Or maybe it is, and using the coin focus in the current campaign will let it be more relevant than it otherwise would be.

[paladinofshojo]

One method is, now that you are outside the game, come up with some explanation that you can use in future situations with the player (or other players) who start bringing up the same questions. This thread has been good for this. Saying that all coins are pure gold - and so their value won't vary - and that one coin is as good as another coin - if weighing the same - can be handy answers for other coin/money issues in the future. One gold coin being 1/50th pound of pure gold, or whatever, can be a useful explanation for future situations as well.

That’s kinda what I am leaning towards since I am hesitant to “recruit” one of the players in my current game to literally write up the nitty gritty of my economic systems. Not because I am a control freak but more so I feel like that’s giving my player waaaay too much power in my world.

[JNAProductions]

That’s kinda what I am leaning towards since I am hesitant to “recruit” one of the players in my current game to literally write up the nitty gritty of my economic systems. Not because I am a control freak but more so I feel like that’s giving my player waaaay too much power in my world.

IT's still your world. You retain veto power, and can change it as you see fit. But since they are an expert, it can help ground your world a bit.

[SpyOne]

My advice would to be to have a heartfelt talk with this player with the following basic thesis: the economy of the campaign world does not function like historical examples from the real world. If that destroys the immersion for you then I am deeply sorry, but perhaps you can learn to embrace the fantastic nature of even the economy.

My brother had a player who was a physics major, and it wasn't long before the pile of things like "fireball should create a shockwave that would pulverize everything in the dungeon" was becoming unbearable.
My brother said to him, "in this world you don't breathe oxygen, you breathe in air elementals and then suck out their life force because you are stronger than they are. And you drown because water elementals are stronger than you and suck out your life force."
After a shocked moment the guy said "oh, okay" and it was like a switch got flipped. He got 100% that the campaign was set in a world that superficially kinda looked like physics worked there but where, just as an example, falling objects don't accelerate.
It isn't that the rules describe the game world badly, it is that the game world functions differently.

I hope he can learn to embrace a world where someone standardized the size and content of coins centuries ago and somehow nobody has tinkered with that, where nobody charges an exchange rate because everybody's coins are essentially interchangeable, and where an independent city probably doesn't even bother minting coins.

Alternatively:
Adventurers are getting screwed all the time. The price list is ridiculous. Having weird foreign coins is just a blip in how many things they are getting overcharged for.
You never get to interact with the real economy, the one merchants and peasants use.

As I often say, adventurers are all wearing a bright neon sign that says "I'm rich, overcharge me."

[paladinofshojo]

IT's still your world. You retain veto power, and can change it as you see fit. But since they are an expert, it can help ground your world a bit.

The “expert” part is what worries me, what’s stopping them from creating financial backdoors and loopholes to exploit for their own benefit?

[Milodiah]

I mean, unless they're masterful embezzlers on top of being economists, you should be able to pick up on when somethings obviously going in their favor. If you realize that his character suddenly has fifteen thousand more gold than everyone else's and you're not sure how it happened, you'll definitely need to retract the offer. And if the suggestions he makes are consistently ones that you can tell have ulterior motives, you'll have to retract it. But I wouldn't be too afraid of those possibilities to refuse to make the offer.

However, you're the one who's at the table, while we've only got what you've told us to go on. It sounds like you do kinda have the hunch this guy's trying to play you rather than just being enthusiastic about a chance to apply his knowledge to his hobby, so if that's the case it's time for a Talking To. Sometimes you gotta trust your gut.