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Thread: Why 3.5?

  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    …which mainly results from initiators being, in fact, gishes that we don't call gishes because they use a different subsystem of magic.
    uh... not really? Manuevers and stances are comparable to martial class abilities and abilities gained by feats. Just because they are codified in a system does not make them spells.

    Is Power Attack a spell? Robilars Gambit? Smite Evil? Manyshot? Nope, they are not. To me there is no meaningful difference in effect and feel to those on the one hand and Punishing Stance, Wolf Fang Strike or Revitalizing Strike on the other hand.

    Sure, some maneuvers have effects that are usually found in spells and magic items - mainly teleportation and elemental damage. And as far as I remember those maneuver actually count as magical (not as spells, mind you).

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Battlemaster actually is Core I believe.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    uh... not really? Manuevers and stances are comparable to martial class abilities and abilities gained by feats. Just because they are codified in a system does not make them spells.

    Is Power Attack a spell? Robilars Gambit? Smite Evil? Manyshot? Nope, they are not. To me there is no meaningful difference in effect and feel to those on the one hand and Punishing Stance, Wolf Fang Strike or Revitalizing Strike on the other hand.

    Sure, some maneuvers have effects that are usually found in spells and magic items - mainly teleportation and elemental damage. And as far as I remember those maneuver actually count as magical (not as spells, mind you).
    Comparing maneuvers to Power Attack is disingenuous at best because those are, as you say, feats. The fact that they follow many of the formats of spellcasting(preparation, levels 1 to 9, etc.) and also function in a similar way is why people compare them to magic. They don't feel as much as "magic" as other subsystems but the semblance exists.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2022-01-13 at 12:09 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    uh... not really? Manuevers and stances are comparable to martial class abilities and abilities gained by feats. Just because they are codified in a system does not make them spells.
    Yes, they are not called spells. They are called maneuvers and stances (like I said, different magic subsystem). So what? Nor are invocations, powers or mysteries.

    Is Power Attack a spell? Robilars Gambit? Smite Evil? Manyshot? Nope, they are not. To me there is no meaningful difference in effect and feel to those on the one hand and Punishing Stance, Wolf Fang Strike or Revitalizing Strike on the other hand.

    Sure, some maneuvers have effects that are usually found in spells and magic items - mainly teleportation and elemental damage. And as far as I remember those maneuver actually count as magical (not as spells, mind you).
    Like I said above, there are three disciplines that mostly or almost exclusively consist of stuff like AoE fire effects, teleportation, air walking, channeling positive energy, conferring negative levels and ability damage, alignment-dependant magical effects etc. And then, there's that stuff which gives temporary scent or blindsense, temporary DR/adamantine, the temporary ability to negate magical defenses and so on and so forth.
    Whether these effects are called spells or not is perfectly irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, a class that uses martial expertise and magic in tandem is a gish, regardless of the terminology used.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Battlemaster actually is Core I believe.
    Huh. That sounds nice, actually!
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2022-01-13 at 12:22 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Yes, they are not called spells. They are called maneuvers and stances (like I said, different magic subsystem). So what? Nor are invocations, powers or mysteries.

    Like I said above, there are three disciplines that mostly or almost exclusively consist of stuff like AoE fire effects, teleportation, air walking, channeling positive energy, conferring negative levels and ability damage, alignment-dependant magical effects etc. And then, there's that stuff which gives temporary scent or blindsense, temporary DR/adamantine, the temporary ability to negate magical defenses and so on and so forth.
    Whether these effects are called spells or not is perfectly irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, a class that uses martial expertise and magic in tandem is a gish, regardless of the terminology used.

    Huh. That sounds nice, actually!
    So, what would you call a Warblade who focuses on the Extraordinary stances and maneuvers?
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  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So, what would you call a Warblade who focuses on the Extraordinary stances and maneuvers?
    A gish that doesn't know what's good for them!

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    The whole "is Tome of Battle magic" debate comes up constantly, and it's basically pointless because it's only ever a question of semantics. There's no official definition for what makes something "magic" rather than "not magic", and maneuvers have some properties that are like spells (divided into nine levels, divided into schools disciplines, some supernatural effects) and other properties that are not like spells (don't count as spells, explained primarily through physical skill, not limited by daily uses). Which side you fall on depends on what you consider the dividing line for "Gish" to be. My personal take is to go ChadYes.jpg and acknowledge that A) some maneuvers are basically magic but B) that's a good thing, since characters who are called upon to fight lords of hell or ancient dragons should be magical to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Is Power Attack a spell? Robilars Gambit? Smite Evil? Manyshot? Nope, they are not. To me there is no meaningful difference in effect and feel to those on the one hand and Punishing Stance, Wolf Fang Strike or Revitalizing Strike on the other hand.
    I broadly agree, but Smite Evil is definitely a magical effect. It's not a spell, but I would call it on par with things like Eldritch Blast or Wild Shape, which are clearly magical effects.

  7. - Top - End - #397
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think the 5e Battlemaster subclass was inspired by initiators and honestly sounds like the most fun option that doesn't have some flavor of magic.(I've also heard that it was originally base Fighter but it was removed because that would mean Fighter had depth, but that's probably a separate discussion.)
    Battlemaster is definitely cool, but it's very front-loaded. When you first pick the subclass, you get to choose your three(?) favorite maneuvers, but every time from then on you're picking from the same list, so you've already got all the best ones. I wish they'd had some stronger or more interesting, but level-/requirement-gated, maneuvers like with Warlock Invocations. In practice, it's more than fine for most campaigns, though.

    I do appreciate that 5E Fighters aren't locked into fighter bonus feats; being able to pick from the whole 5E list lets them add quite a bit to their repertoire compared to other martials, making up for their strong but bland chassis.
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    Does alignment tell you at a glance whether a creature is a friend or a foe? Because in my experience, the Paladin who treats a ping on detect evil as a green light for stabbing is not looked particularly fondly on by DMs or party members.
    friend or foe isn't a kill switch. if it is to the players they probably want simple fairytale morality to begin with.


    For my heartbreaker, I would nix alignment as its own thing and just use subtypes/descriptors. Outsiders still get their alignment tags, as do characters with "aura of x". Most people have none. Maybe using certain spells gives you a tag for some amount of time, etc.

    For D&D, I think it would be dumb to do away with, because the alignment 2x2 is one of the D&D things that has most penetrated pop culture.

    Some kind of personality shorthand remains useful. For D&D, combined with above, current system seems fine.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    I was talking specifically about non-combat utility. There are a number of maneuvers that edge out what casters can (easily) accomplish in combat at specific levels, or in some cases at all, but my point is more that even if you look at the "fix martials" book it still doesn't do much of anything to address the disparity out of combat.
    WRT has very limited non combat utility.

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    WRT has very limited non combat utility.
    Yeah let me see. It would be useful for someone trying to talk really fast, I guess. (Running an auction? Making a speech?). Doing anything where short-term speed is a factor, really.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    I love a lot of the systems in 3.X, as well as the customizability of characters and monsters. Plus, there's some homebrew on these very forums, and others as well, where playing a monster is its own class with their own strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    This relaxes slightly if the players are cool with 3 überchargers or 7 necromancers in the same party.
    If I'm playing in a campaign, I'm usually, like, 3 of those necromancers since I love the archetype so much.

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: Why 3.5?

    I have moved on, mostly. I started in 2e, skipped 3.0 for completely different systems, made it back to 3.5, eventually moved on to Pathfinder, tried 4e and 5e neither of which caght my attention, made my entirely new homebrew game system, and am currently diving deep into Starfinder. But 3.5 still holds a special place in my heart as it is where I really started homebrewing, it gave both a framework and space to build in. Without it I would never have made my Transformers game, let alone have made something to publish for Starfinder, and be working on more.
    After playing 3.5 my group tried to go back and play 2e, and boy did that not work. But I would still be willing to jump into a 3.5 or PF1 game. Starfinder does what I want now, but only because of what I learned from 3.5.
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