PCs and Prophesies

[Silent Wrangler]

Imagine the party wants to know the future. They are visiting a famous oracle, or casting a poweful spell, or are even asking an appropriate dvine being outright.
Of course, unless you're playing freeform with prenegotiated storyline, there is a big chance that either players or dice (or maybe both) aren't gonna agree with predictions you make.
So, how do you prefer dealing with that? Do you declare PCs special in their ability to defy fate? Do you make vague prophesies that can have multiple interpretations? Do you make all predictions faulty by their nature, showing the version of future "before" it's been altered by predictions? Any other methods you like?

[Thrudd]

Imagine the party wants to know the future. They are visiting a famous oracle, or casting a poweful spell, or are even asking an appropriate dvine being outright.
Of course, unless you're playing freeform with prenegotiated storyline, there is a big chance that either players or dice (or maybe both) aren't gonna agree with predictions you make.
So, how do you prefer dealing with that? Do you declare PCs special in their ability to defy fate? Do you make vague prophesies that can have multiple interpretations? Do you make all predictions faulty by their nature, showing the version of future "before" it's been altered by predictions? Any other methods you like?

Don't include prophecies that can't be guaranteed. Which means, of course, don't include future predictions. Spells and gods can show them where they ought to go, what sort of enemies they might face, what items they need, who they need to meet, etc. Nothing can predict what happens when they get there, or even if they will get there.

[Vahnavoi]

My guiding line is to never give predictions of the future that exceed my own ability to predict the future. From a game master's position, that's still quite a bit more than what players are usually capable of, given game master has more and controls information.

In practice, this means things like not giving non-probabilistic predictions of probabilistic game elements. For example, if something depends on a die roll, I won't try to predict which result is rolled, I will just tell the odds of that roll. Prophecies tend to come with boundary conditions that need to be fulfilled in order for them to come to pass. Absolute statements are only made of things which a game master can decide on their own and which the players have no chance of changing.

I'm capable of doing things differently, via utilizing non-linear time and self-fulfilling and self-defeating prophecies. I wrote something about that in a different thread:

Non-linear time is not impossible, but it is a pain in the ass.

The easiest way is to write game events from the end to beginning, so things in the "now" are influenced by things that haven't happened yet. The next step is to apply retroactive past, where things that have already happened can change based on what players are doing "now" or will (have to) do in the future.

In practice, this means you'll be working with hard self-fullfilling prophecies. Prophecies don't predict the future, they set the future; knowledge of the future is hence dangerous because it locksteps you into bringing that future about.

Even softer versions of the same will have your players dealing with dilemmas where the only reason something has happened/is happening/will happen is because player themselves predicted it and are acting in accordance with their prediction. A down-to-earth example of this happening would be "my prediction of being able to complete this painting in two weeks is the sole reason why I'm going to complete this painting in two weeks", a slightly more exotic one would be "my prediction that this society will crash due to rebellion, will only come true because I am choosing to rebel because of my prediction that this society will crash due to rebellion."

[Batcathat]

I prefer to either have prophecies with a chance of failure or just not have them at all. Of course, that has a lot to do with how much I dislike them as plot devices (not to mention Chosen Ones. God, how I loathe friggin' Chosen Ones ).

[ngilop]

The trick to telling players a prophecy is to make sure it has MULTIPLE interpretations.

SEE: Bulletproof Monk for examples.

[Telok]

When the Argle is at Bargle and Cargle is Dargle, then the time of Eargle is upon us. Then may Fargle the Gargle and the future of all is DOOM!

Nice, vague, points them plot pieces. Adjust to suit.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Free will is a central part of my setting. Thus, there are only two types of prophecies for anyone.

1. Vague glimpses of possible futures. The oracles dedicated to the Archon of Time usually have a better chance of teasing out the probable from the improbable and interpreting the hints, but even then...

2. What some powerful individual (god, ascendant, devil, spirit) predicts will happen. Or is saying that they're predicting. Usually with heavy doses of bias and wishful thinking. No one knows the true future, because the future isn't written yet. And everyone's got their own biases. Yes, that means that asking the gods for a prophecy means you're being manipulated according to their agendas. Deal with it.

[False God]

Vague prophecies and the multiverse tend to be my excu...I mean choice.

[Pex]

Don't have the Prophecy be about the PCs. The Prophecy is about an event to happen later in the campaign or an NPC the party may or may not have met yet. Of course make sure the campaign remains about the PCs. They play an important role in trying to get the Prophecy fulfilled or stop it from happening.

Depending on the Prophecy McGuffin you can have it be a self-fulfilling one. Don't have a definitive interpretation in mind. If the players are confused by it when first learning of it that's ok and the point. Let them figure it out as the game progresses. Whatever interpretation they eventually decide upon, what geniuses they are that's what the Prophecy foretold.

[Composer99]

The two ways I would couch divination magic, oracular revelation, etc. with respect to the future are:
(1) Avoid referring to certainty, preferring probabilities or likelihoods. ("Great reward may come to those who brave the perils of the Isle of Dread.")
(2) Sometimes, certainty is okay as long as it's couched in contingent language. In effect, this "more certain" future is a status quo that the PCs, being PCs, have a chance to upend. ("Lest they be stopped, in three days' time the Cult of Doom will conjure the Demon of Doom from the Pits of Doom, bringing its Doom to the world.")

Always in motion is the future, and all that.

[Mutazoia]

Prophesies should be vaguely worded so that they can either be applied to multiple situations or completely ignored as the case may be.

However, if you must pen a definite prophecy, you should keep a few things in mind:


The PCs are NEVER the subject of the prophecy. They can be the tools by which it comes to pass (or is prevented) but never the focus. This frees you from the fallout that may happen if the players decide to ignore that particular plot hook.

Trying to prevent a prophecy almost always makes it happen, in the worst way possible. Just take a look at Bavmorda from Willow.

Trying to force a prophecy to come true will almost always result in it coming to pass in the worst way possible. Just take a look at Macbeth.

Prophesies should contain mostly physical markers that the DM can drop in at any time. "When the two moons conjoin and the sea turns the color of blood." A dual lunar eclipse may give off a red light that makes the sea look like it has turned the color of blood. This can happen any time the DM wishes to invoke that particular prophecy.

This brings us to the next bit. Make your prophecies in multiple parts. If part A happens, part B may or may not happen depending on the player's actions. Or an alternate part B may be waiting in the wings. These compartmentalized prophecies are best delivered by strange hermits that appear mysteriously, deliver the next portion of the prophecy, and then vanish just as mysteriously, or by the medium of dreams, or perhaps the occasional visit of a celestial agent (perhaps the old hermit is a celestial in disguise). Either way, you get to tailor the next bit of your prophecy according to the actions of your players.

[Lacco]

There are several *ahem* tricks how to make it work with prophecy in RPG. There are two important variables to be considered: player trust and appropriate game type. The first one is necessary: players need to work together with you otherwise they will crash and burn any type of prophecy regardless of your attempts (or the forceful nature of prophecy-based gameplay will crash & burn the game itself). The other one has been mentioned: it's harder to do prophecy in full sandbox game. In a way, prophecy limits the sandbox in certain way, which can be a good way - a guiding light - but the players have to want to use the light.

The "multiple possible interpretation" option has been mentioned.

The other options that I have successfully used are:
- OOC prophecy - basically, you agree (OOC) with the player on the prophecy and codify it; you can also attach some metagame currency to this (e.g. consider it a sidequest and give XP when they hit milestones and further the prophecy; provide reroll bennies). Best used with "yes, but..." method. Example: the barbarian's player goes to a witch to see his future. OOC we discuss and he says he wants something epic, but he wants to defy fate. I propose "You will die protecting those who do not even know your name, yet you will promise to fight for them." Interestingly, in one point of this game he decided to give a rousing speech to a city guard that begun "You may not even know my name, but I will fight for you!"... boom. Destinyyyyyyy. Ohhhh, his face when he realized this...

- unfolding prophecies - you give the start of the prophecy (basically: what you are sure to happen - e.g. party meeting the BBEG, seeing the dark tower, etc.); this one works best with visions of future or prophetic dream; and you continue to add "flashbacks" (or flash-forwards) based on the context and decisions. Example: at certain point they met the BBEG, a powerfullegendary prophet (actually, not the actual prophet but someone using his name). Since then, several party members had this dream where they walk down a long corridor, lit only by their torches. They see a rat, it looks at them and scurries away. There are strange symbols, ancient ones, etched into the walls, but they walk on. They enter a room... end dream. Later, they have the same one. Same rat. Same symbols. The room contains six graves. And a figure. They wake up. Same dream, the figure is clad in white, an albino elf, turns around... dream ends. Basically: you add more information.

- impersonal prophecy - you show them the world. You show them what they will encounter or should encounter. You do not take them into account. "You stand on a mountain and see thousands of campfires below. You see someone say 'They are here. We are late.' The image shifts and you see a ship, in a storm, its mast breaking under the strain. And suddenly, you are elsewhere - a forest. It is on fire. You see people run for their lives, away from the destruction. You know this place! It's the elven forest of Elforest!"

- fleeting recollections - a variation on the unfolding prophecy - they remember fragments of the prophecy, but not the whole thing. You add parts to it as they progress. Example: a female PC meets an NPC... "You remember this man - you kissed him... or will you kiss him?". She then meets another PC. An archer. "You look at the man you kissed and remember that he dies, skewered with arrows with pheasant feathers". The archers has... guess what? Arrows with pheasant feathers. The first guy is, of course, a traitor, and will try to kill her. And the archer needs to save her... or... ; this one works exceptionally well when you absolutely have no idea what the hell the players are going to do.

- visions of the past? visions of future? you can not tell. Basically: give them a mixture of past events that will allow them to get some context and backstory and visions of future, that will give them clear way to solve some issue. You can also give them hints how to bypass some puzzles/solve an issue this way. "I see in your future a door... no, there are two. One of them you avoid. The other one you enter. The one that is guarded by the horse." ...some time later, in a dungeon far away, two door - one trapped, the other safe... with a bust of a horse above it.

Again, very much depends on WHO they ask and what form does the prophecy take. In my favourite RPG, there is an actual skill (either Astrology or Omen Reading) that allows the PCs to activate prophecies, but the game supports this mechanically.

So, if they go to a local witch, she will provide a very narrow prophecy, very personal. "Do not trust the white goat." All right, they meet this old, graying guy with goatee... and he will be the traitor.

But if they go to the most powerful oracle and ask "How do I die...?" then this should be discussed with them OOC.

[kieza]

Probabilistic prophecies are probably the way to go. Prophets don't see a guaranteed future; they see a future that can come to pass but might not.

For bonus points, you can have different kinds of prophecy with different advantages and disadvantages:

Oracular prophecy, in which the prophet gets involuntary flashes of high-probablility, high-impact events like volcanoes and floods, out to a long time horizon, with no control over what they see.

Prescience, in which the prescient knows exactly what will happen absent their intervention, but can't see far into the future or outside the immediate area, and they have to actually take action to see alternatives.

Soothsaying, in which a soothsayer can browse all possible futures, seeing everything that might ever come to pass, but has to spend time doing so and can't possibly examine every timeline in detail.

Conditional foreknowledge, allowing someone to know the odds of a specific event happening, even to the degree of "odds of X, if I do Y," but without understanding the chain of events that enables it to occur.

Etc.

My homebrew setting has a religious order of statisticians who collect prophecies and prophets of all kinds, playing them off of each other and using statistical analysis to extract additional meaning not present in the raw prophecy. Fun little world building that my players will run into eventually.

[The Glyphstone]

The only time I've used a prophecy in my game was as the central plot hook of the campaign premise, and it was still open ended to some degree. An ancient forgotten evil god was going to awaken, the party was destined to be the ones who confronted it. How prepared they were or what they did in the meantime was up to them, the prophecy only said it would happen and not who would win. So its not really a representative sample because player buy-in meant they weren't going to buck the entire plot out of spite.

[KorvinStarmast]

The trick to telling players a prophecy is to make sure it has MULTIPLE interpretations.

Yes.

2. What some powerful individual (god, ascendant, devil, spirit) predicts will happen. Or is saying that they're predicting. Usually with heavy doses of bias and wishful thinking. No one knows the true future, because the future isn't written yet. And everyone's got their own biases. Yes, that means that asking the gods for a prophecy means you're being manipulated according to their agendas. Deal with it.

Wait, is there an Oracle on Soefra?

Don't have the Prophecy be about the PCs.

Bingo.

However, if you must pen a definite prophecy, you should keep a few things in mind:

The PCs are NEVER the subject of the prophecy. They can be the tools by which it comes to pass (or is prevented) but never the focus. This frees you from the fallout that may happen if the players decide to ignore that particular plot hook.

Trying to prevent a prophecy almost always makes it happen, in the worst way possible. Just take a look at Bavmorda from Willow.

Or the parents of Oedipus

Trying to force a prophecy to come true will almost always result in it coming to pass in the worst way possible. Just take a look at Macbeth.

Good example.

Prophesies should contain mostly physical markers that the DM can drop in at any time. "When the two moons conjoin and the sea turns the color of blood." A dual lunar eclipse may give off a red light that makes the sea look like it has turned the color of blood. This can happen any time the DM wishes to invoke that particular prophecy.

This brings us to the next bit. Make your prophecies in multiple parts. If part A happens, part B may or may not happen depending on the player's actions. Or an alternate part B may be waiting in the wings. These compartmentalized prophecies are best delivered by strange hermits that appear mysteriously, deliver the next portion of the prophecy, and then vanish just as mysteriously, or by the medium of dreams, or perhaps the occasional visit of a celestial agent (perhaps the old hermit is a celestial in disguise). Either way, you get to tailor the next bit of your prophecy according to the actions of your players.

Good suggestion.

Or you can write a 15 volume novel, like Robert Jordan/Sanderson ended up doing. (Not suggesting this as an alternate course of action).

From personal experience: I only tried to do a prophecy deal once as a DM, and I explicitly made it non specific (the breaking of the continent was involved if all of the stars and events aligned...) The players were working on dismantling the elements of the prophecy when the campaign ended due to a move.

[Trafalgar]

Make it vague and open to interpretation. Use Star Wars prophecy of the chosen one as an example.

"The chosen one will bring balance to the force".

Who is the chosen one? Qui Gon and Obi Wan believed it to be Anakin. It seems like it was Rey in the new trilogy. Perhaps the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet and someone yet to be born is the chosen one. Maybe its the kid with the broom in SW:TLJ. Who knows?
What does bring balance to the force mean? How was the force unbalanced? Most people take it as killing Emperor Palpatine. How did that bring balance to the force? Balance would seem to mean the light and dark sides are equal.

[Batcathat]

Who is the chosen one? Qui Gon and Obi Wan believed it to be Anakin. It seems like it was Rey in the new trilogy. Perhaps the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet and someone yet to be born is the chosen one. Maybe its the kid with the broom in SW:TLJ. Who knows?
What does bring balance to the force mean? How was the force unbalanced? Most people take it as killing Emperor Palpatine. How did that bring balance to the force? Balance would seem to mean the light and dark sides are equal.

I like the interpretation that they were right about it being Anakin and he balanced the Force by making it so that there were only two each left of both Jedi and Sith. If they made that canon, that might actually be a prophecy use in fiction I did like.

[icefractal]

For divinations about the future, they're only guaranteed accurate as long as the people who've heard them don't interact with that situation at all. Not that interacting is guaranteed to make the prediction fail, it just makes it uncertain, more-so the more you interact with it.

So if you prophecy that the dragon Irontooth will be slain in Waterdeep in three weeks, and you want that to happen, your best course of action is to stay the hell away from Irontooth, stay the hell away from Waterdeep, don't tell anyone else about it, and try not to even interact too much with anyone who's going to be traveling to Waterdeep.

Trying to prevent it by interacting doesn't guarantee success, of course. You might seek out Irontooth and warn him, but if he doesn't believe you and assumes it's a trick, he may go to Waterdeep anyway and get killed there. But it has at least the possibility to change it.

This is why prophets tend to live way out in the middle of nowhere - it makes avoiding accidental interaction easier. It's also why they tend to be vague and unreliable in how they convey the info - it makes it possible for them to avoid telling people about prophecies which they want to occur (because telling anyone else adds more risk of it failing), without the refusal being information in itself.

In OOC terms, this means I don't need to try to predict the players' actions or their luck, because once the players get involved enough to take actions, the prophecy is no longer guaranteed to happen as descried.

[MoiMagnus]

Imagine the party wants to know the future. They are visiting a famous oracle, or casting a poweful spell, or are even asking an appropriate dvine being outright.
Of course, unless you're playing freeform with prenegotiated storyline, there is a big chance that either players or dice (or maybe both) aren't gonna agree with predictions you make.
So, how do you prefer dealing with that? Do you declare PCs special in their ability to defy fate? Do you make vague prophesies that can have multiple interpretations? Do you make all predictions faulty by their nature, showing the version of future "before" it's been altered by predictions? Any other methods you like?

There is a question of "how" is the prophecy made and "who" made it:

(1) It is a prediction from a very wise/clever godlike entity => It can fails. Depending on the personality of the entity making the prediction, it will either tries to account for the PC's action, or it describe what would happen if the PC don't intervene. The main difficulty here is that the godlike entity is probably supposed to be much more clever than you are as a mortal, and it's difficult to handle NPCs more intelligent than you are.

(2) It is a divine prophecy => Quite often, prophecies are not just predictions, they're pretty much promises from some god that "don't worry, I'm going to select a chosen one to solve your problems" or "my loyal cultists, here is how to take advantage of this cosmic convergence during a blood moon to conquer the world, don't worry I will help you for the details of the setup". The prophecy is a promise, and the god making it will try its best to make it happen, but can fail especially if their chosen ones rebel or if another god meddle with the prophecy.

(3) It's actually fate => Keep it vague for things that you cannot control as a GM so that you can twist the prophecy to match what happened, and get precise for things you can fully control as a GM. In fact, as a GM, you're pretty much "fate" itself. How strong fate is in the universe (so what kind of prediction are possible) is directly correlated with how much you railroad the campaign.

[Trafalgar]

I like the interpretation that they were right about it being Anakin and he balanced the Force by making it so that there were only two each left of both Jedi and Sith. If that made that canon, that might actually be a prophecy use in fiction I did like.

Are you talking about after Order 66? There were several other force users still running around - Ahsoka, Darth Maul, Kanan, probably others.

There was a chosen one prophecy in an early draft of the Episode 4 script that obviously referred to Luke. In an interview during the release of the prequels, Lucas stated that Anakin was definitely the chosen one. But now with Disney calling the shots and ignoring Lucas, who knows who the Chosen one is?

[Psyren]

I like the interpretation that they were right about it being Anakin and he balanced the Force by making it so that there were only two each left of both Jedi and Sith. If that made that canon, that might actually be a prophecy use in fiction I did like.

*chuckles in Ahsoka/Cal*

(I don't disagree with you that the prophecy meant Anakin boosting the Dark Side's profile, I just find the math itself amusing as they keep tinkering with it via various new-EU materials.)

[Batcathat]

*chuckles in Ahsoka/Cal*

(I don't disagree with you that the prophecy meant Anakin boosting the Dark Side's profile, I just find the math itself amusing as they keep tinkering with it via various new-EU materials.)

I'm sure you're right, I've never been that big of a Star Wars fan (though thanks to the Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett, my interest is probably at an all time high) so I'm not super familiar with the lore. It kind of sounds like how Superman was supposed to be the last Kryptonian... except for his cousin... and his dog... and a bunch of bad guys and so on.

[Psyren]

I'm sure you're right, I've never been that big of a Star Wars fan (though thanks to the Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett, my interest is probably at an all time high) so I'm not super familiar with the lore. It kind of sounds like how Superman was supposed to be the last Kryptonian... except for his cousin... and his dog... and a bunch of bad guys and so on.

I hear you, I'm not either. At least it's easier to keep track of canon now that Disney set most of the old stuff on fire.

Was more a tongue in cheek observation that your example may not have been quite as elegant as you might have believed

[Trafalgar]

I hear you, I'm not either. At least it's easier to keep track of canon now that Disney set most of the old stuff on fire.

Was more a tongue in cheek observation that your example may not have been quite as elegant as you might have believed

To be fair, its actually kind of realistic. Look at any real world prophecy and you will find 100 ways of interpreting it. Some people will think its already happened, some will think its happening next year, and some will think it's happening in the distant future.

So the fact that Obi Wan first thought Anakin was the chosen one but then changed his mind and decided Luke was it but was ultimately proved wrong because it was probably Rey actually works. And is a good example to use when writing the plot for a campaign.

What you don't want to do is use "Kung Fu Panda" as an example where we find out that the Po is the dragon warrior at the beginning of the movie. As a DM, you would be painting yourself into a corner.

[Duff]

GM, knowing there's a high chance the PCs are going to get captured in the next story arc, and that they'll almost certainly want to rescue the leader of the good guys who's being captured in the next country over as we speak;
"The prophet recites the lyrics to the song "Jailbreak" by ACDC. Any time you can neatly link the events around you to a line from the song, the party wins initiative. Any time your success is forcast by the song, you get a +5 to the role."

Choose a song that all your group know at least reasonably, and try and pick one with a few different lines.
The prophecy of the Bohemian Rhapsody can go anywhere of course