Illegal sentient dungeons!

[Greywander]

Quick pitch: Dungeons with a mind of their own will randomly appear and entice people to their doom with the promise of treasures, including some that can bestow a small measure of divinity. The world is ruled over by an empire that has made it illegal to raid these dungeons, claiming that the dungeons and the treasures within are cursed, but in reality they are hoarding the treasure for themselves.

Previous thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...tient-dungeons

I was thinking about this setting again recently, so I wanted to do some more brainstorming on it.

The Dungeons

In this world, dungeons aren't built by human hands. Rather, dungeons are structures that will randomly appear, and then, after a time, just as randomly disappear. I'm thinking that the dungeons are an extradimensional space, possibly part of a Plane of Dungeons, and the dungeon entrance is just a portal leading to this alternate dimension. This allows us to justify some of the typical dungeon tropes, such as a random, maze-like layout with rooms that seem to serve no purpose, and, of course, loads and loads of lethal traps. The monsters within are not sentient or truly alive; rather, they are manifestations of the dungeon's will. This helps to justify random encounters and wandering monsters. Monsters can even appear in a room you've already cleared out.

Dungeons contain all sorts of magic items, but the two main treasures found within are gold (specifically, any type of coinage/currency, including gems), and Tokens of Divinity. In this setting, you can spend gold for XP as an in-universe thing, allowing you to attain superhuman ability. I'm not sure how I'd implement this in a system, or even which system would be best for this concept, but I think ideally you would have a "natural level", which is your measure of training and experience, and then you'd have a "gold level", which is determined solely by how much XP you've gained from gold. Both would contribute to your overall power level, but there would be limits to how strong you could get naturally. I'm also not sure what the mechanism for converting gold into XP would be; at the moment I'm considering a ritual wherein the gold is placed in a bowl or other container and set on fire, with the specific intent to offer it up as a sacrifice in exchange for power, and that this ritual would take at least a few minutes, perhaps as long as an hour (maybe it would scale according to how much gold is being offered).

Tokens of Divinity are coin-like objects made of stone, and quite a bit larger than typical coins (perhaps 2 to 3 inches in diameter). Each one contains a supernatural power, perhaps a piece of the domain of a former god. To use them, you offer them up the same way that you do gold. Once used, the effect is permanent and cannot be reversed. Each token is unique, and a given token will reappear in a random dungeon once the previous wielder dies. There's a limit to how many tokens a person can use at the same time; frail mortal bodies aren't built to accommodate such divine power, and using too many results in death. Most people can use at least one token, unless they are especially weak-willed, and it is rumored that some have used as many as three. I'm thinking that perhaps the New Gods (detailed below in the section on the Empire) have as many as five tokens. This limit is generally inherent to each person, though both natural training and spending gold might increase your limit.

I was considering as a possible lore thing that perhaps the tokens originated in a primordial era where the world was full of small gods (perhaps the ancestors of humans). Each token contains the power of one such god, power that was later amassed and consolidated by the Old Gods, until it was scattered again when they were overthrown by the New Gods. Even if this isn't the actual origin of the tokens, it might be a useful mythological device, where each token is named after one of these supposed small gods, and stories of these gods are more or less speculation on what that token's power is capable of.

There's a lot I haven't figured out yet. Who made the dungeons, and who controls them? Or are they some kind of independent life form just doing their own thing? What is the purpose of the dungeons, and why do they have the tokens of divinity? My main ideas are that (a) the dungeons are vestiges of the Old Gods, seeking suitable candidates to assume their power and overthrow the usurpers (the New Gods), or (b) the dungeons are created and controlled by an enigmatic Dungeon Master who is using adventurers for his own ends. The Dungeon Master might be an evil entity that the Old Gods were holding in check and the New Gods aren't aware of, or it might be an ambivalent or benign entity that is either opposed to the New Gods or has their own agenda that clashes with that of the New Gods.

There's also the matter of the dungeon curse. Anyone who enters a dungeon, or touches treasure that came out of a dungeon, becomes tainted, though they may be able to shake off that taint after a time (e.g. a daily or weekly saving throw type of thing). Those who spend gold to level up or use a divine token become permanently tainted. The Empire has inquisitors that can detect the presence of the taint, so long as they themselves aren't tainted, and thus these inquisitors cannot enter dungeons or touch any treasure that came out of a dungeon, and certainly can't spend gold for XP or use tokens. I'm not yet sure what the nature of this taint should be, and it might be fairly benign. But one idea was that it was a sort of charm effect placed on people by the Dungeon Master, allowing him to manipulate those people into doing his bidding.

Furthermore, I'm also considering a "downside" to using tokens of divinity, and possibly for spending gold for XP as well. Basically, conditions under which you would be unable to use your power, and might be weakened overall. A sort of kryptonite effect. I'm not sure what these conditions should be, though, and I think it will greatly depend on what the true nature of the dungeons are. If the dungeons are vestiges of the Old Gods, then this kryptonite factor is likely related to some weakness of the Old Gods, e.g. some kind of "holy repellent". If the dungeons are creations of an evil Dungeon Master, then this kryptonite factor is likely related to some weakness of that Dungeon Master, and might also work to suppress the curse that allows the Dungeon Master to influence people.

I'm also considering each individual token coming with its own downside. As a coin has two faces, one face of the token depicts the power you will receive, while the other face depicts the drawback. Ideally, each drawback would relate to the power received in a logical way, such as a token giving you fire powers making water burn you like acid (though maybe that's too severe). I'm debating if it should be possible to lessen or even fully remove this drawback, perhaps if you somehow "awaken" the power within the token, achieving a higher level of that power.

The Empire

In this land there are kingdoms that trade or go to war with one another as normal. However, most of the land has also fallen under the authority of the Empire, which mostly allows these kingdoms to handle their own affairs, but has made it illegal to raid dungeons. The Empire typically doesn't involve itself in the dealings between nations unless it's own power is threatened (e.g. an anti-Empire faction is seizing control of a kingdom), though they do also render aid during disasters. Mostly what the Empire does is "cleanse" dungeons that appear (taking the treasures for themselves), protect kingdoms from "outlaws" who have raided dungeons, and pursue those same outlaws in order to "bring them to justice" (read: stop them from stealing all the dungeon treasure).

At the head of the Empire is the pantheon of New Gods, who are probably normal humans that have attained max level and used more tokens of divinity than anyone else. However, I'm still open to other possibilities. I also haven't quite nailed down what their agenda is, beyond amassing power by hoarding gold and tokens. Below them is the Emperor, who handles most of the administration of the Empire. The Emperor probably has his own officers and commanders, though I haven't fully fleshed this out yet. The main military force of the Empire is the Imperial Guard. The Guard has garrisons in most major cities around the world, and helps to protect the surrounding area from outlaws as well as clearing dungeons that appear.

The Imperial Guard is generally viewed as a force of justice in the world, fighting criminals and protecting the innocent. As such, many who join the Guard still hold these views, and genuinely want to protect people and do good. Of course, the reality is that there are many in the Guard who are corrupt, and the Empire has its own agenda that it is pursuing. The Empire isn't necessarily evil, in fact, many in the Guard are good people, but the Empire does keep a lot of dark secrets. Those who achieve higher ranks in the Guard are given gold (and rarely, tokens) to offer up to the Emperor and the New Gods, who in turn bless them with power, but really this is just the same ritual to spend gold for XP dressed up to look favorable. Most Guardsmen believe the Empire's propaganda about dungeons being cursed and that outlaws have more or less traded their souls for power. Those who are more savvy recognize that the Guardsmen are the same as the outlaws, and that the Empire is simply hoarding treasure from the dungeons.

As previously mentioned, the Empire also has inquisitors, which may be part of the Imperial Guard, or, more likely, they are a separate branch. Their role is to hunt down those who have been tainted by the dungeon curse, which is particularly difficult when you consider that a lot of the gold in circulation came out of a dungeon at some point. Most people will carry a minor form of the curse, so the inquisitor has to hone their senses to be able to differentiate between different levels of the curse. Of course, they're aware that the Guard also carries the curse, in part because they have to enter dungeons to clear them, and in part because higher ranking Guardsmen spend gold for XP to become stronger. Because of this, they don't get along very well with the Guard. An inquisitor who becomes tainted by the dungeon curse loses the ability to detect the curse, so they're very careful not to enter a dungeon or touch any gold or any item that came from a dungeon. Each inquisitor typically has one or more servants with them who can handle such items in their stead. Particularly powerful inquisitors can even tell how many tokens a person has used, or give a rough estimate of how much gold a person has spent for XP.

The Outlaws

Since most in the Guard, particularly at the lower ranks, view themselves primarily as protectors of the people against the scary dungeons and their curses, they tend to be fairly lenient with those caught entering a dungeon. After all, there are a lot of people for whom even a small amount of gold could be life-changing, so it's understandable that they would succumb to the allure. In fact, many a dungeon excursion is also a rescue mission to recover the people who went into the dungeon (or their bodies). Their primary goal is to protect people, not to punish them, so while some minor punishments might be dealt to those who have broken the law, those who have merely entered a dungeon typically don't get the outlaw treatment. That said, there are always those in the Guard who are less forgiving, particularly those who are corrupt or on a power trip.

An outlaw is typically someone who repeatedly enters dungeons and removes treasure, evades the Guard, and resists an arrest. Attacking Guardsmen is a good way to become an outlaw. Also, anyone who has spent gold for XP or used a token is usually branded as an outlaw, though it can be difficult for the Guard to know this unless they catch you in the act or you admit to it. Using a token power can also be used as evidence against you. There's also the garden variety bandits and brigands, but since they're outlaws anyway there isn't much incentive for them not to try to plunder dungeons or spend gold for XP. There's also a thriving black market dealing in magic items and tokens of divinity.

Outlaws come in all sorts. Some are vicious brigands who plunder and pillage (so basically a standard murderhobo party), while some are heroic vigilantes working outside the law. While outlaws have to avoid the Guard, the governments of individual kingdoms or cities may or may not mind their presence, so long as they behave. As an outlaw gains notoriety, the Empire may place a bounty on them, and the higher the bounty, the more known that outlaw becomes. Committing heinous deeds, acting against the Empire, or just being really strong are all things that can contribute to a higher bounty. Most outlaws take pride in how high their bounty is, treating it like some kind of rank or score, but this naturally comes with the threat of bounty hunters. The more known an outlaw is, the harder it becomes for them to move around without being recognized, and a kingdom that is publicly friendly with outlaws may get in trouble with the Empire.

Final Thoughts

Obviously, this setting is set up for the players to be outlaws, though it should also work for players to be guardsmen, or bounty hunters. You would have to pretty much commit to the entire table being one thing, though. A mix of outlaws, guardsmen, and bounty hunters wouldn't really work.

There's still some things I haven't nailed down yet. The big one is the nature of dungeons, and figuring this out will likely cause a lot of other things to fall into place as well. I'm also uncertain on what the Empire's true objective is. There are also other questions about the world unrelated to either, such as if non-human races will exist, or what other types of fantastical elements will be included in the setting. I was also thinking about how magic items fit into this setting, as I could easily see them occupying the same space as the tokens of divinity (i.e. I could axe the tokens altogether and replace them conceptually with magic items that you permanently attune to). I'd love to hear any feedback or ideas you guys might have, both on these specific questions and on the setting as a whole.

For those wondering, yes, this was largely inspired by the world of One Piece, just adapted to a D&D-esque setting, with a bit of 40k slipped in.

[InvisibleBison]

If the dungeons are living beings, perhaps they appear in the mortal world as part of their reproductive cycle. The "gold" that they contain is actually a sort of seed, and when sacrificed for power they latch onto the soul of the person who sacrificed them and start growing within it. More powerful people's souls are a more hospitable environment for larval dungeons, so the dungeons contain dangerous monsters and traps in order to make sure that their seeds won't end up attaching to weak souls.

You could also relate this to why the Empire is opposed to dungeons. Give the New Gods have uses of their own for the souls of their worshipers (perhaps they are ascended mortals, and need to harvest souls to maintain their divinity), and make having a dungeon growing in your soul interferes with that.


Another thought I've had, unrelated to the above: Why do you describe the Empire as an empire? To me, it sounds a lot more like a religious organization than any sort of government.

[Greywander]

If the dungeons are living beings, perhaps they appear in the mortal world as part of their reproductive cycle. The "gold" that they contain is actually a sort of seed, and when sacrificed for power they latch onto the soul of the person who sacrificed them and start growing within it. More powerful people's souls are a more hospitable environment for larval dungeons, so the dungeons contain dangerous monsters and traps in order to make sure that their seeds won't end up attaching to weak souls.

An interesting idea, if anti-climactic. Part of me wants to have the nature of the dungeons tie in to some greater mystery, a sort of epic plot twist that changes everything and makes you rethink everything you thought you knew. Then again, not everything has to be an epic multi-layered plot twist. On the other hand, "dungeons are people" could make for a plot twist, and might give me some material for further secrets and mysteries, likely to do with who particular dungeons are/used to be. Also this reminds me the thread I made on dungeons as playable characters. Perhaps players could actually create their own dungeons inside themselves, conjuring up a portal leading to the dungeon's interior. Heck, maybe this is exactly how dungeons randomly appear in places. Alternatively, maybe the random dungeon appearances are what happens when a dungeon-person dies; a portal appears nearby leading to their dungeon, and they could be revived if someone knew how, but instead people usually end up simply robbing that dungeon of everything it has, causing the dungeon-person to die for real.

There's a lot of potential here, I think this could be a really interesting part of a setting, I'm just not sure if it makes sense in this specific context. I'll give it some thought, though, and see how I feel about it. If anyone else has ideas on how to handle the nature of the dungeons, I'd love to hear them.

You could also relate this to why the Empire is opposed to dungeons. Give the New Gods have uses of their own for the souls of their worshipers (perhaps they are ascended mortals, and need to harvest souls to maintain their divinity), and make having a dungeon growing in your soul interferes with that.

Perhaps the New Gods don't want to turn into dungeons, so they use other people as surrogates, allowing them to benefit from the power while someone else becomes a dungeon instead?

There doesn't necessarily need to be a reason for the Empire to be trying to control dungeons, aside from amassing the wealth and power within. The question would then be, why are they amassing wealth and power? Though it would also make sense if their reasons did have something to do with the hidden true nature of the dungeons.

Another thought I've had, unrelated to the above: Why do you describe the Empire as an empire? To me, it sounds a lot more like a religious organization than any sort of government.

That's partly the 40k influence, but then the Empire is a fairly religious organization in 40k anyway. It's also because the One Piece analog is the World Government, which is likewise connected to the Holy Land Mariejois. So a religious connection was always there in the inspirational material. Besides, I think it's kind of fitting to have regular humans who have attained supernatural powers to have the hubris to call themselves gods and attempt to control the world. Such an organization would certainly be political in nature, but would have the trappings of religion. So some kind of Holy Empire makes sense. The emperor is above any mortal king, exerting political control over the entire land, but the gods are above even the emperor. One part propaganda, convincing people that the New Gods are, well, gods, and one part hubris, the New Gods falling for their own lie.

I can see a situation where the emperor holds the real power, actually getting things done and driving his own agenda. Meanwhile, the gods sit in their paradise believing that things are under their control without actually getting involved themselves. Though make no mistake, the New Gods would be more powerful than the emperor, and would kick his butt if they thought he was working against them. Not saying this is how it would be, but it's one possibility. Perhaps the emperor's agenda is to overthrow the New Gods, and as such needs to become more powerful than even they are. In fact, this could even be motivated by the New Gods not pursuing their own agenda aggressively enough. If the New Gods had some kind of goal to which the emperor was privy, and they weren't working toward that goal quickly enough, the emperor might decide he could do a better job.

Lots of potential for plot twists and political intrigue.

[Quizatzhaderac]

One thing that sticks out is that it seems it would be much simpler for the tokens of divinity to grant XP and leave gold entirely out of it.

XP doesn't make sense anyway, so you might as well slap a magical/ semi-divine narrative on it. It also saves from having to fiddle with game mechanics and balance if the players and main humanoid enemies have the a straightforward XP mechanic for their abilities.

Let the guy who learns to cast a fireball by decades of study have the weird mechanics. Or just say it's different and never look too closely.

That's partly the 40k influence, but then the Empire is a fairly religious organization in 40k anyway. It's also because the One Piece analog is the World Government, which is likewise connected to the Holy Land Mariejois.

The empire if Warhammer is also an actual empire (albeit in the process of fragmentation). Maybe a made of term? Interdicticans. The imperative (of novos deos). The proscription (of aberration). Inquisition and Enaction.

[Greywander]

One thing that sticks out is that it seems it would be much simpler for the tokens of divinity to grant XP and leave gold entirely out of it.

I've been thinking about this again lately, and I'm now leaning toward ditching the tokens of divinity and instead just using magic items in their place. By attuning to a magic item, you take the item's magic into yourself. Depending on the specific power granted by the item, you may not need the item at all after that, but some items also serve as conduits for the power they grant, allowing you to use that power through the item a bit easier than you could use it on your own. Once attuned, an item becomes bound to your soul, allowing you to dismiss it to a pocket dimension or resummon it to yourself, so it's not really possible to lose the item.

I do want to leave the gold for XP in, how exactly it gets tracked is something I can deal with later. If nothing else, it can just straight up add to a shared pool, with the only distinction that you would need to keep track of how much of your XP came from gold. Or perhaps not even that...

The empire if Warhammer is also an actual empire (albeit in the process of fragmentation). Maybe a made of term? Interdicticans. The imperative (of novos deos). The proscription (of aberration). Inquisition and Enaction.

These are some good suggestions. I'll give this some thought. You're right that it wouldn't really be a true empire, maybe more of a union of states. Hmm, honestly, maybe a comparison to a certain religious organization that exerted a lot of political power in medieval Europe while itself being a relatively minor state might be more apt. The thing is, I don't think of this as purely religious, as this "empire" would definitely be fielding armies, typically for clearing dungeons and to hunt for outlaws.

---

I've also been thinking about the nature of dungeons a bit more. I've been considering the idea of dungeon treasures acting as a "seed" to grow another dungeon inside a person, and I think I like the idea. The dungeon curse puts people under a charm effect from the Dungeon Master, allowing him to subtly influence people. The DM uses this power to keep people unaware of the dungeon growing inside them. Eventually, the DM will influence a person to wander off somewhere to die, and thereby turning into the entrance to their dungeon. That's how dungeons pop up in random places. The DM also influences people to not notice the person is gone, or to come up with a justification for why that person disappeared (remember, most people have a soft curse as a result of handling gold). The DM then siphons energy off of the dungeon, which is measured in the amount of gold in the dungeon (which corresponds to how much gold that person spent for XP). If someone wanders into the dungeon and dies, their life energy (including any gold they spent for XP) gets added to the dungeon, increasing the amount of gold available. Maybe a dungeon can come back to life if it gets enough gold.

I haven't figured out why the DM is siphoning energy. Perhaps he's locked in a dungeon of his own, which is an actual prison, and needs the energy to escape. But that's a bit too straightforward. I also haven't figured out how someone would be able to resist turning into a dungeon, as there's clearly some people who have been around for a long time and haven't turned into dungeons. Likewise, I haven't figured out what would cause a person to turn into a dungeon, unless the DM just picks a person and makes them a dungeon. I'm also not sure yet if the DM is a villain or perhaps a more neutral party (it might be difficult to portray them as benevolent, given that they're turning people into dungeons to siphon their energy). I do like the idea that if a person becomes aware of the dungeon inside them, then they can transform at will into an entrance to their own dungeon, allowing their friends (or enemies) inside. However, that obviously would work better for something like a webcomic or TV show, rather than a tabletop game, as the players would only be unaware of it the first time they play, and only then if they didn't read all the rules.

[oogaboogagoblin]

the dungeons are sentient beings who want people to explore in them? thats a very cool concept, but why? if they are sentient i would give a reason for them to want that, it could be as basic as the taint steals the adventurers life force and feeds it to the dungeon or it could be as weird as gold is like dungeon pollen and adventurers are the pollinators, but there should be A reason, otherwise they dont feel sentient. also what could be cool is if the dungeons could directly interact with the players (change their own shape, talk, maybe even shapeshift into humanoids like dragons)