New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 30 of 30
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default How open are your adventures?

    Hello again.

    So, I'm back in the DM seat and I find that adventures with straightforward scenes tend to run smoother. The players know what to do and excitement is just around the corner. On the other hand, open scenes allow (imho) for a much more immersive gameplay that also challenges the players more.

    open scene example:
    Somebody stole your ring last night. The thief should live in this city. Time to find him... somehow...

    straightforward scene:
    Somebody stole your ring last night, but he left an engraved dagger leading you to a certain blacksmith. The blacksmith asks you for a favour in return...


    I like both, but I roughly apply 70% straightforward scenes and 30% open scenes.

    What's your preference and why?
    What can change the nature of a man?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    The tabletop games I run as a game master tend to be location based, so it depends on size of the location.

    In a campaign, the starting area tends to be something like an island, so the first question the players have to answer is where, exactly, their characters want to go. Very open until something happens to funnel the game into a specific direction.

    For one-shots, the starting area tends to be something like a building. There may be many ways in or out, but the action is still constrained in a small, interconnected space. Leaving that space puts you out of bounds and ends the game.

    Freeform games I've been part of have been more character based, where scene starts and ends with interaction between select characters, often serving some predetermined end. So, ironically, freeform games are often less open than my tabletop games.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Montana

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    It depends on the group. I am finding that most of the people I am currently playing with have only played published modules and adventure paths, meaning that they don't really know what to do with something that is totally open. I may leave things more and more open after they are invested in a certain incident/hook and following events, but they generally need a little more guidance at the very start. But that is what they are used to after all, published adventures are generally extremely "railroady" at the beginning to make sure you get into the rest of the adventure.

    For me, the exception to this would be mysteries. I try to be very thorough in laying out the setting/scene along with possible witnesses, and then I only give them further threads to pull on based on what they investigate or who they talk to from there. I don't give them any direct clues before they start investigating. If they don't start investigating, then that is fine. Not every mystery needs to be solved.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    depends on the game. often I build a scene, get an idea of what is going to happen if the characters do nothing.
    Then watch the characters throw it all out.
    the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    As both players and GM, I prefer the more open scenes.

    “The one and only way for the game to progress is for the one and only PC the GM will listen to to give the one and only answer to the one and only riddle that the one and only holder of the one and only clue.…” yeah, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    if you're not going to provide them with at least one clue leading towards something interesting and fun to do, you probably have bought into the worst possible meaning of the term 'sandbox'.
    What if you’ve left half a dozen clues hidden, but *handed* the party 0? Granted, I prefer to hand them half a dozen potential “hooks”, and have at least half a dozen more hidden, but, in this very specific scenario of a mystery, do you actively dislike if the party’s first action has to be to search for clues? (Or, you know, they could check into the inn first, or whatever else they want to do, I suppose).

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Burbank CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    On the spectrum of closed vs open I lean toward the open but I do tend to leave them some idea of a general direction they could go. Then as the party moves I tend to sprinkle a few more clues but I try real hard to avoid the strict "single path" that is often part of some published adventures and adventure paths.
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the context of the game world.

    "D&D does not have SECRET rules that can only be revealed by meticulous deconstruction of words and grammar. There is only the unclear rules prose that makes people think there are secret rules to be revealed."

    Consistency between games and tables is but the dream of a madman - Mastikator

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasilidor View Post
    depends on the game. often I build a scene, get an idea of what is going to happen if the characters do nothing.
    Then watch the characters throw it all out.
    That's an interesting approach, I will keep it in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Basically, if you're not going to provide them with at least one clue leading towards something interesting and fun to do, you probably have bought into the worst possible meaning of the term 'sandbox'.
    I've done this before, hoping they would just come up with a neat way to use their new powers. Didn't work out at all, so you are probably right.

    Quote Originally Posted by dafrca View Post
    On the spectrum of closed vs open I lean toward the open but I do tend to leave them some idea of a general direction they could go. Then as the party moves I tend to sprinkle a few more clues but I try real hard to avoid the strict "single path" that is often part of some published adventures and adventure paths.
    When you say "single path", do you mean that there is only one hook or that there is only one solution? ( I prefer the first one)
    What can change the nature of a man?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Let me share some visualization tricks for understanding game paths:

    Identify an initial binary question at the beginning of the game situation. Place it as a node on paper. Examples: "Do you turn left or right at the crossroads?" , "Do you fight or flee the orc?" etc. Then, you look at how the answers influence the situation and what new questions they lead to. Place each new question on paper as their own node and draw lines to them from the first node. Rinse and repeat.

    This will describe the game tree for your game. Answers that lead to different questions create divergent branches, answers that lead to the same question are convergent branches. If you allow the branches to loop, your game tree will become a flow chart, describing the process of your game.

    For simple location-based games, your flowchart will resemble the real shape of that location. For complex location-based games with lots of interactive objects, listing every possible node quickly becomes impossible. You'll have to abstract and represent important sub-locations with lots of possible actions with bigger nodes etc..

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    How does it count if you don't even plan the whole adventure up front and mostly make it up as you go based on what they do?

    I generally have a rough idea of where things could lead, as well as people and maps for the locations I'm pretty sure they'll go (but the maps are not fully populated; that's decided mostly on the fly).

    Generally, I know fairly well the outline of the next session. Two if they've committed to a fairly linear bit. Beyond that? Who knows?

    I certainly pretend that I have it all plotted out and have deep plans and schemes. I don't. Not at all. Because every time I've tried to plot things out in any detail beyond "the session in progress right now", they've decided to take a hard left at Albuquerque instead.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Some of what the NPCs will do will based on their perception of the PCs. So it may very well that what may happen is the PCs die if they do nothing if they are facing hungry or evil monsters. Sometimes what will happen if the players do nothing is they will be very bored as what I am doing is a noncombative social session. That said even noncombative social sessions can be dangerous when it involves gambling with fae and demi-gods.
    the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    How does it count if you don't even plan the whole adventure up front and mostly make it up as you go based on what they do?
    As far as answering how open your games are? It counts as "unknown because I never measured it". Not planning ahead doesn't really help escape causality of your game rules or yourself. This said, it often isn't necessary to measure this more than few game turns into the future, which you can do to sufficient degree when running a game.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Burbank CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn4 View Post
    When you say "single path", do you mean that there is only one hook or that there is only one solution? ( I prefer the first one)
    Sorry, to clarify, I mean the what I think you are calling "single solution". The party must go to this specific room or they will fail. The party must talk to one specific NPC or will fail, etcetera. If something is critical to an adventure I will make sure the party has more than one way to learn the information or find the widget. I do not mind the use of a special widget, I just do not want to lock it behind the single path. Hope that makes more sense. And yes, I know this is just my way and opinion. Others may feel different.
    Last edited by dafrca; 2022-01-01 at 06:54 PM.
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the context of the game world.

    "D&D does not have SECRET rules that can only be revealed by meticulous deconstruction of words and grammar. There is only the unclear rules prose that makes people think there are secret rules to be revealed."

    Consistency between games and tables is but the dream of a madman - Mastikator

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Since something needs to happen in the game, there's always a point where the DM decides what happens, what is found, what NPCs are around and what they say, etc. The only question is how and when you make those decisions. So this "open" or "closed" question is really about how much is planned before the session starts and how insistent you are on following the plan you laid out.

    Neither one really makes a more "immersive" experience for the players, necessarily, since they aren't going to know what you planned ahead of time and what you decided on the spot. The only difference I can see between what is being called "straighforward scenes" and "open scenes" would be whether or not you ask for a roll of some kind before you reveal that they found a clue or figure out who they need to talk to. If you say "Your ring is missing, what do you do?", they will probably say "I look around the room for any evidence left behind by the thief". You have them make a roll, and then tell them that they found a dagger under the bed with an engraving on it. Did you plan for there to be a dagger with a clue, or did you come up with that idea right then? Have you decided beforehand that the dagger leads to a particular blacksmith, or just came up with that idea when the players go out and ask around town if anyone knows what blacksmith made the dagger? To the players, it seems like the same thing- they ask questions, make some rolls, get some answers.
    The only way a "straightforward" or "closed" style is any different from the player POV is if you just narrate what happens and what their characters do without allowing them to come up with the ideas themselves or asking them to make ability/skill rolls. You shouldn't make them roll for everything, this is true. If you decide that the only clue to their crime will be the dagger (in the moment, an hour before, or two weeks before) then I agree you should just tell them they find the dagger without gating it behind a roll.
    If you're putting the clues behind ability/skill checks, even if you have multiple chances for them to find clues, that means you are accepting the chance that they might never solve the crime and will just need to write off the stolen ring plot - at least as a means to lead them to the next part of the adventure.


    If you want a single adventure hook, the best way to go is the flowchart/node-based adventure design. Success and failure at each point affects what happens in the next scene. Preferably, subsequent combat encounters are easier in some way if non-combat skill rolls and socializing are successful at getting information - possibly some combat encounters are bypassed altogether. Regardless, from the player's POV, they are deciding how and when to use their skills and coming up with ideas, and their rolls and abilities they chose to invest in do actually make a difference in how the adventure plays out (even though they won't always know exactly how things might have gone differently).

    You can literally have the flowchart and hooks/scenes planned out, or you can decide in the moment what the consequences of failure and success at each point should be and what happens next. It doesn't matter, so long as there are consequences to their choices of action, rolls, and character build.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Often I find that I know what the players need or want to do, but I'm not certain how they're going to do it. Therein lies the adventure. But even then sometimes I'm just totally caught off guard by the direction of my adventures.
    What I'm Playing: D&D 5e
    What I've Played: D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, D&D 5e, B/X D&D, CoC, Delta Green

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Modern in sense of design focus. I consider any system that puts more weight in the buttons that players mash over the rest of the system as modern.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Jan 2021

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Too open. I try to make games where there are things going on, and several ways to find out what any key players are doing, and what the overarching issues in the world are. The problem lies in making this too broad, as a few times people have told me they don't really know what is important.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Burbank CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by LecternOfJasper View Post
    The problem lies in making this too broad, as a few times people have told me they don't really know what is important.
    Too Broad and Too Narrow both carry harsh impacts to the game. I think it is always a hard line to walk for a GM who elects to try to do so. It can be done but it is a skill and takes time and practice and patience to get good at it IMO.
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the context of the game world.

    "D&D does not have SECRET rules that can only be revealed by meticulous deconstruction of words and grammar. There is only the unclear rules prose that makes people think there are secret rules to be revealed."

    Consistency between games and tables is but the dream of a madman - Mastikator

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I certainly pretend that I have it all plotted out and have deep plans and schemes. I don't. Not at all. Because every time I've tried to plot things out in any detail beyond "the session in progress right now", they've decided to take a hard left at Albuquerque instead.
    This is precisely my experience. I've taken to planning out what the NPCs are planning to do in the absence of PC interference. If thugs kidnap the sheriff's kid, why? They didn't do it just so some PCs can mount a rescue mission. They have some intention behind their actions that don't account for a bunch of adventurer heroes coming along and messing things up. Maybe they plan to use the kid as a ritual sacrifice to some dark force. Ok... why? What do they hope to get from that? What's their ultimate plan? What does the "dark force" get out of it?

    I find that building things out like this, assuming the PCs don't even exist, satisfies my storytelling urges without getting all railroady with the players. I can build out complex histories and timelines stretching into the past. The thug gang has past history with the sheriff, perhaps. The sheriff's uncle was once a member of the gang. It can get pretty intricate, but since most of it happened in the past and is just informing the current arrangement, the players can't undo that work.

    And speaking of the players, they can come in and wreck things all they want. When they disrupt the NPCs' plans, the NPCs just want to get back on track. Since they have goals that are independent of the PCs, they just do what they need to get back to those goals. It makes anything short of "we pack up and leave town" easy to respond to as a DM. And even that -- I can transplant plot ideas if I have to.

    To answer the original question, I think this results in a hybrid open/straightforward approach. I will build hooks based on what the NPCs are trying to do. If the players aren't hooked, I just move the NPCs forward along with their plans and build a new hook based on that. It doesn't take long for the players to get involved, and then it's just a game of the NPCs trying to do what they set out to do and adjusting to the monkey wrenches the PCs keep throwing them.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Open play requires the players to have more information.
    A closed scene can be run with basic rule knowledge and character sheets. GM draws a scene, I look at my character sheet and respond. Rinse and repeat
    An open scene means I need to know my character's motives in more detail and I need to know more about the setting. To give an example of a simple open scene;
    "While you're in Capital City, is there anything you want to do?"
    I know enough about fantasy city tropes to have some good guesses. Shopping. Libraries/collages/professional associations to find stuff out. Bars/operahouses/art galleries. d3 thieves guilds.
    If I know my class, I know what to shop for.
    A bit of personality and I know where to go for recreation.
    If I know my character's history and I know this city, then I'm going to visit my old friend and mentor. Or I'm going to see if The Rich Merchant has another job for me. And I'm greeting the innkeeper of my favorite tavern by name.
    In contrast, if it's a weird city and the tropes don't apply and I don't know my character or the city very well, I'm going to sit there like a lump until the GM tells me where the plot is. (Or, I'm probably going to spend the next 4 hours asking about the city until I find something I want to do)
    Because open play needs knowledge to work well, it takes time. One way to make that process of gaining knowledge interesting is to start with something more closed
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    When the players and GM know what the characters want, it makes everything work much more smoothly, whether open or pre-planned. When the GM asks "what do you do", the players will always have an answer that moves the game forward if their characters' motivations are properly defined at the beginning. If they are mercs looking for work, they'll inquire about finding clients. If they are hunters of ancient relics, they'll look for research and lore. If they're monster hunters, they'll ask locals and authorities about monsters in the area. You'll know what sort of adventures to create, and you won't need to use any contrivances or railroading to get them to want to engage.

    The only contrived bit will be if the players want to play through a "prologue" scenario where their characters meet and decide to team up for the first time, and first decide they want to live the life of an adventurer or hunter or whatever- it has been predetermined that they all must agree to team up and become adventurers, or else the game can't happen.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    I prefer open, on both sides of the table.

    The trick is to give enough information that players can make a move, without information that constrains moves, and then be willing to accept most player plans as at least semi-reasonable.

    Doing this works a lot better if you think of your adventure as a set of NPCs with agendas trying to accomplish them, rather than a series of scenes.

    Then, a given scene should include an inciting event and a story question. A story question basically is something we want to find out, and theoretically can. Larger story questions can take a while to resolve, while shorter ones should be scoped to the scene. Story questions generally follow the format of "will the heroes <accomplish task> or will <disaster result>?" This creates urgency and momentum. "Who killed Bob" isn't a story question - "Will the heroes find out who killed Bob and stop him before he strikes again?" is

    So the issue with the ring is that there's no urgency, and no information. A ring was stolen.... okay. Is it particularly valuable? What will happen if it's not recovered? If you add some of these details in there, there's more of an urgency to figuring it out, and more information that can be dropped. Like, maybe it's a magic ring that had a particular symbol on it. Maybe the character gets a headache when they're away from it. That gives us a few possibilities to go on, specifically figuring out what the symbol is, seeing if any thieves had been contracted to steal it, etc.

    I like to think of "plot grenades". These are things that demand a response, but not a specific response. If someone lobs a grenade at you, you can run in any direction. You can get behind cover. You can throw it back. The one thing you can't do is just stand there.

    So for an open scene, sure, leave the knife. But also have the symbol on the ring known by the previous bearer of it. Have some way of pointing out the bad consequences to the players. And if they choose another route besides "talk to the blacksmith" be ready to roll with it.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    How does it count if you don't even plan the whole adventure up front and mostly make it up as you go based on what they do?

    I generally have a rough idea of where things could lead, as well as people and maps for the locations I'm pretty sure they'll go (but the maps are not fully populated; that's decided mostly on the fly).

    Generally, I know fairly well the outline of the next session. Two if they've committed to a fairly linear bit. Beyond that? Who knows?

    I certainly pretend that I have it all plotted out and have deep plans and schemes. I don't. Not at all. Because every time I've tried to plot things out in any detail beyond "the session in progress right now", they've decided to take a hard left at Albuquerque instead.
    In my experience almost all DM work in this way. Because parties are too unpredictable. In the example a dagger got stolen. Maybe the owner has no interest in retrieving it and will just buy a new one.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    In my experience almost all DM work in this way. Because parties are too unpredictable. In the example a dagger got stolen. Maybe the owner has no interest in retrieving it and will just buy a new one.
    The key there is stakes. "Your dagger is stolen" is boring - there's no real reason to care except for "maybe this is a quest hook" which is a terrible reason.

    "Your dagger was stolen and you know the magic is the key to an occult ritual which can <do bad thing>" is better. You've created clear stakes and a story question, and hopefully one which you know hits something the players care about. Note that I don't recommend using this as a railroading technique, just one to make sure that the players are actually engaged with things, if that makes sense.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wyoming

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    I have been working hard on pushing my GM techniques in the last few years. For a long time, I was a big fan of the following format:

    1. Create an adventure hook
    2. Create 2-6 encounters that can chain together in a node format as needed
    3. Big Finale

    It did not matter how encounters 2-6 played out and they always led to the Big Finale, with a planned BBEG and resolution.

    I then switched to this:

    1. Create an adventure hook
    2. ???? Let the players action lead to the center
    3. Big Finale

    I typically had a villain, villainous motivation, and a potential end figured out. Everything inbetween was improvised but connected via GM Fiat/storytelling.

    I am now using this:

    1. Adventure Hook
    2. ????
    3. ????

    This involves only setting an initial hook, but then letting PC fiat drive the narrative and descriptions forward rather than me. I do this by asking open ended questions and responding with Improv techniques such as:

    Open Ended Question Examples:
    + What happened?
    + How do you know about this?
    + How did this make your character feel?

    Improv Techniques:
    +Yes, and.... I agree with what the player narrative was and want to add/modify it a bit.
    +Yes, but.... I agree with what the player narrative was but am going to place some limits
    +No, but.... I disagree with parts of the player narrative, but am going to reset the narrative that went a bit too far.
    +Tell me more..... I want the player to add more Narrative than what they provided.

    This takes a lot of the load off the GM and creates a very collaborative experience. No one at the table really knows where the story is going to go.... and that is okay.
    *This Space Available*

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    NW PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    I have been working hard on pushing my GM techniques in the last few years. For a long time, I was a big fan of the following format:

    1. Create an adventure hook
    2. Create 2-6 encounters that can chain together in a node format as needed
    3. Big Finale

    It did not matter how encounters 2-6 played out and they always led to the Big Finale, with a planned BBEG and resolution.

    I then switched to this:

    1. Create an adventure hook
    2. ???? Let the players action lead to the center
    3. Big Finale

    I typically had a villain, villainous motivation, and a potential end figured out. Everything inbetween was improvised but connected via GM Fiat/storytelling.

    I am now using this:

    1. Adventure Hook
    2. ????
    3. ????

    This involves only setting an initial hook, but then letting PC fiat drive the narrative and descriptions forward rather than me. I do this by asking open ended questions and responding with Improv techniques such as:

    Open Ended Question Examples:
    + What happened?
    + How do you know about this?
    + How did this make your character feel?

    Improv Techniques:
    +Yes, and.... I agree with what the player narrative was and want to add/modify it a bit.
    +Yes, but.... I agree with what the player narrative was but am going to place some limits
    +No, but.... I disagree with parts of the player narrative, but am going to reset the narrative that went a bit too far.
    +Tell me more..... I want the player to add more Narrative than what they provided.

    This takes a lot of the load off the GM and creates a very collaborative experience. No one at the table really knows where the story is going to go.... and that is okay.
    This is similar to my technique (I've been gamemastering for 40 years). when I run a "sandbox" campaign, I put out encounters, and then in my notes, I will write in 3 or 4 "plot hooks" very loosely defined and let the players' speculation on these clues drive the adventure forward. This requires a bit of improv and some knowledge of the setting being used, but it can produce a very interesting adventure where even YOU have no idea how it will end. Some of the best sessions we ever had were the result of PC speculation combined with a bit of improv.

    Pro Tip: DON'T throw away any PCs that you generate for the game. You never know when you might need a "Detailed NPC" for an encounter. ALL of my NPCs were PCs that I generated but never used myself as a player.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lacco's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Slovakia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    For the semi-sandboxes that I usually end up GMing, I usually use the following approach: "here's a set of adventuring hooks... and this big one, hanging from a crane, 80ft above you, and there are random hooks strewn around the whole place". One adventure hook is usually the one the players ignore, so almost everything is an adventure hook in itself (I view this similarly to the OOTS comic: everything an adventurer does is an adventure). The difference is the scope, timing and risks the hooks contain.

    So there will be few big things, a lot of medium sized hooks and almost anything you interact with and hooks you becomes a hook in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    The key there is stakes. "Your dagger is stolen" is boring - there's no real reason to care except for "maybe this is a quest hook" which is a terrible reason.

    "Your dagger was stolen and you know the magic is the key to an occult ritual which can <do bad thing>" is better. You've created clear stakes and a story question, and hopefully one which you know hits something the players care about. Note that I don't recommend using this as a railroading technique, just one to make sure that the players are actually engaged with things, if that makes sense.
    "The tavernkeep tells you there is a witch living in house next door. And he's afraid of going out, so there's no fresh food.
    The shady guy in the corner will sell you a 100% Original Treasure MapTM. He openly states he did not sell this one to anyone else.
    Outside you hear a drummer - the newest city decree has been posted - there is a bounty on the head of local smuggler gang.
    The guy crying at the table in front of the fireplace is one of the local blacksmiths - formerly the best one - he's been having strange nightmares that disallow him from getting enough sleep to work, every piece of metal he buys breaks or gets rusty extremely fast, and he's running out of money.
    Oh, and someone stole your dagger."

    If they don't try to find the dagger - and usually, adventurers in my games have those personalized - it will most probably be used in a killing by the head of the smuggler gang. Who will try to blackmail them into "persuading" the authorities to let go of this stupid bounty idea.

    If they work to find it, they may prevent it being found. And being thrown into a middle of an overbearing authoritarian city councilman and unscrupulous smugglers.

    EDIT:
    Oops, did not address the OP.

    So: it depends on the group and their preference. Mine is almost 100% open: I want you to interact with the environment, not follow a story I have laid. Still, there are always some assumptions that I make (e.g. you open door with your hand) and if we're live gaming, I'll be speeding up the play - especially near the end - because our time is limited.

    If we're talking exploration and travel, there may be even more straightforward scenes (I've tried a travel adventure without skipping and we almost lost our minds...). So there it will be like 60 open:40 straightforward.

    Again, very much depends on the group. If I find they engage actively and interact with open situations, I'll let them and give them every chance. If not, I'll just sigh mentally and start driving.
    Last edited by Lacco; 2022-01-10 at 04:19 AM.
    Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
    Formerly GMing: Riddle of Steel: Soldiers of Fortune

    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    "The tavernkeep tells you there is a witch living in house next door. And he's afraid of going out, so there's no fresh food.
    And? The players likely have rations, magic food available, or can go somewhere else. Why do they care about this tavernkeep?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    The shady guy in the corner will sell you a 100% Original Treasure MapTM. He openly states he did not sell this one to anyone else.
    And? The players probably have several options for treasure hunting, if that's even something they really really need. And the shady provenance makes this a risk of setup at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    Outside you hear a drummer - the newest city decree has been posted - there is a bounty on the head of local smuggler gang.
    And? There's a possible reward, but also a lot of possible enemies to be made. That's real iffy on getting involved in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    The guy crying at the table in front of the fireplace is one of the local blacksmiths - formerly the best one - he's been having strange nightmares that disallow him from getting enough sleep to work, every piece of metal he buys breaks or gets rusty extremely fast, and he's running out of money.
    Oh, and someone stole your dagger."
    And? There's other blacksmiths, in other towns. And the second best blacksmith is probably still pretty good.

    None of these scenarios are really compelling hooks, unless the players are "going along to go along", which is fine. They're not bad, they're just very typical of the "my PCs won't bite on the plot hooks" complaints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    If they don't try to find the dagger - and usually, adventurers in my games have those personalized - it will most probably be used in a killing by the head of the smuggler gang. Who will try to blackmail them into "persuading" the authorities to let go of this stupid bounty idea.

    If they work to find it, they may prevent it being found. And being thrown into a middle of an overbearing authoritarian city councilman and unscrupulous smugglers.
    And they know none of this. All they know is the hook.

    Here's a hook - that particular dagger is known as belonging to the PC that owned it. A murder was done with it, and now the authorities are snooping around. And the story question - will the PCs be able to find out who stole the dagger before they strike again, creating enough evidence to lead the police to them?

    For bonus info-revealing, have an acquaintance of them that knows the dagger tell them they saw it being used for something nefarious. Figure out how to make the frame job obvious before it happens. Now the PCs have a reason to get involved.

    A good story question needs at least two things - a task and a disaster. (An antagonist and a complication help, too, but they're not as important). And the disaster needs to be a disaster to the characters, not to someone else.
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2022-01-10 at 11:24 AM.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lacco's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Slovakia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    And? The players likely have rations, magic food available, or can go somewhere else. Why do they care about this tavernkeep?
    Assuming this is D&D? Yes.

    But I don't usually play D&D. Also, they don't have to care about this tavernkeep.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    And? The players probably have several options for treasure hunting, if that's even something they really really need. And the shady provenance makes this a risk of setup at best.
    Correct. They may and most probably will have several other possibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    And? There's a possible reward, but also a lot of possible enemies to be made. That's real iffy on getting involved in.
    Or a job from the smugglers. Don't forget, they can play it the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    And? There's other blacksmiths, in other towns. And the second best blacksmith is probably still pretty good.
    None of these scenarios are really compelling hooks, unless the players are "going along to go along", which is fine. They're not bad, they're just very typical of the "my PCs won't bite on the plot hooks" complaints.[/QUOTE]

    They are not bad, they are just basic. Which is exactly what I'm going for: especially for new players/players I don't know well, or just new characters, in a sandbox.

    These are not "story plot hooks", just adventure hooks.

    Also: what's better than a second best blacksmith? A grade A blacksmith that owes you a favour.

    Lastly, I may have been spoiled by my players, but they tend to form personal hooks - getting friendly with the locals, knowing *some* NPC names...

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    And they know none of this. All they know is the hook.

    Here's a hook - that particular dagger is known as belonging to the PC that owned it. A murder was done with it, and now the authorities are snooping around. And the story question - will the PCs be able to find out who stole the dagger before they strike again, creating enough evidence to lead the police to them?

    For bonus info-revealing, have an acquaintance of them that knows the dagger tell them they saw it being used for something nefarious. Figure out how to make the frame job obvious before it happens. Now the PCs have a reason to get involved.

    A good story question needs at least two things - a task and a disaster. (An antagonist and a complication help, too, but they're not as important). And the disaster needs to be a disaster to the characters, not to someone else.
    I agree, that's a good story plot hook. And I like personal adventure/story hooks just like you: my players are usually thrown into trouble not due to some world-ending catastrophe, but because they swore an oath, decided to take a stand on some very personal topic, or just due to hatred, loyalty or other personal reason. But I don't do them in all games. Because sometimes you just go to a bar and see a guy sitting there, staring into his drink and you go talk to him, just to help out.

    Also, the "dagger stolen" hook won't be a 0 to 100: in my games you wouldn't go from "dagger is stolen" to "and you're now blamed for this dead body...". There would be several clues, several steps.

    Question: why not have the standard villain "Hey. Nice dagger. Is it for sale?" talk? Then a sighting of the dagger on someone else's belt. And THEN the killing, if they decide not to do anything. Personal daggers are a big thing in some games
    Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
    Formerly GMing: Riddle of Steel: Soldiers of Fortune

    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wyoming

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Lately, I have been finding that you start with a "bland" hook, and ask for player narrative to fill in the "juicy bits". If they want to engage in a hook, they can; or they can just tell me what they really want to do in the game too.

    ******************************
    Example:

    GM: You wake up in the morning and your dagger is missing. Why would you care?

    Player A: Ummm, I probably don't. I figure I misplaced it last night in my drunkenness.

    GM: Okay, so what are you guys going to do next? Is there anything from your drunken evening we should all know?

    Players: Nah. We go down into the main room to have breakfast.

    GM: Great, you see your dagger sitting on the table where a cloaked figure is sitting. Player A, who is this man, and why do you care about him?

    Player A: No idea who this dude is, and why he is sitting with my dagger. Not interested this morning as my head hurts way too much.

    GM: Do any of the rest of you know him at all?

    Players: Nope. Not us.

    GM: Okay, what are you going to do next?

    Players: Go find the dragon!

    GM: Great, how are you going to do that?
    ************************************************

    You will notice that I start generic, and then potentially up the stakes; but if the players do not want to engage with a hook; then let's just move on to what they DO want to engage with. No big deal as I also invested 0 time in that hook too!
    *This Space Available*

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    These are not "story plot hooks", just adventure hooks.
    I'm not entirely sure what the difference is in this context.

    Really, the point is that what's driving the characters needs to be compelling to them. Otherwise, they won't want to do it. Mysterious map? Good chance that it's fake or the danger is greater than presented. And so on and so forth.

    Reward has to be better than risk. You can do that by bumping up reward or increasing risk (usually the risk of what happens if you don't engage).

    So many "adventure hooks" offer a mildly interesting reward with a lot of unknowns and no consequences to avoiding them. So, yeah, in that case (unless you're engaging in some participationism!) the rational move both as a player and as a character is to not do them. (Assuming, of course, that there is actually a choice and "making smart choices" is part of the game, vs. "finding the best way to get on the tracks", but again we get into participationism).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    Lastly, I may have been spoiled by my players, but they tend to form personal hooks - getting friendly with the locals, knowing *some* NPC names...
    Yeah, 100%. I was totally surprised when some players worked really hard to keep a sheriff out of jail, or to work with a guard that left his post... It's all dependent on what the players/characters find compelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    I agree, that's a good story plot hook. And I like personal adventure/story hooks just like you: my players are usually thrown into trouble not due to some world-ending catastrophe, but because they swore an oath, decided to take a stand on some very personal topic, or just due to hatred, loyalty or other personal reason. But I don't do them in all games. Because sometimes you just go to a bar and see a guy sitting there, staring into his drink and you go talk to him, just to help out.
    Sure, but I think a lot of people are paranoid about the "mysterious stranger". I almost always find it's better to give info than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacco View Post
    Also, the "dagger stolen" hook won't be a 0 to 100: in my games you wouldn't go from "dagger is stolen" to "and you're now blamed for this dead body...". There would be several clues, several steps.
    100%. But even the early steps can have some of "here's the potential risk to you if you don't do this." It doesn't mean that it's necessasrily happening yet, just that it could (and probably will). "Yes, your dagger is stolen. Given the importance of personal daggers and the seal on yours, that would make it pretty easy to forge your identity in a convincing way. Whether you were specifically targeted or not, somebody having that could make lots of trouble".
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: How open are your adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn4 View Post
    What's your preference and why?
    It very much depends on the game, the GM and the group:
    Some GMs are better at making it up on the fly than others. They can do open well. Others struggle more with this
    Some groups don't collectively have the initiative to do an open scenario. This can be any combo of inexperience, lack of focus, characters which don't have a sense of direction or the fact that some characters (and players) are as easy to herd as cats. You need to lay out a chain of treats for them to follow or they won't go in the same direction
    Some games invite character driven action. Eg Ars Magica or fate. Some are better with more structure, eg Cthulu. I consider D&D to be fairly much at the structure end.

    I can quite enjoy pretty much anything on the whole spectrum as long as the rest of it more or less matches.
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •