Hilarious things you've found in RAW?

[Wildstag]

April Fool things

If we're talking April Fool's jokes, then the "Flaws for Commoners" was a great article in Dragon Magazine, and the one Kobold feat that spontaneously turns you into an elf, but you die soon after because you turn into an elf while hanging out with kobolds (who see you as intruder and kill you).

Alternatively, I'd like to thank bundlesandflows for having actually read the Epic Level Handbook and found this guy a couple years ago.

[Jervis]

If we're talking April Fool's jokes, then the "Flaws for Commoners" was a great article in Dragon Magazine, and the one Kobold feat that spontaneously turns you into an elf, but you die soon after because you turn into an elf while hanging out with kobolds (who see you as intruder and kill you).

Alternatively, I'd like to thank bundlesandflows for having actually read the Epic Level Handbook and found this guy a couple years ago.

To be fair Elf has its uses. Assuming Flaws are allowed then Dragonwroght + Elf lets you be a Dragon with the Elf subtype assuming you get revived. I have yet to find a good use for this but i’m sure there’s something

[Bavarian itP]

Due to how spot works, everyone has terrible vision and you can't recognize your own family from down the street.

That would explain how this is "indistinguishable from a normal human at distances greater than 30 feet".

[Jervis]

That would explain how this is "indistinguishable from a normal human at distances greater than 30 feet".

*squints* seems legit, 30 feet is basically a mile right?

[hamishspence]

Or how about some blatant (but never officially corrected) typos - like with the Eye of Gruumsh in Epic Level Handbook:

Spoiler: I wonder if it matter which kind of ore...

Show

My copy of the Epic Handbook doesn't have any typos in the Eye of Gruumsh item description.

[ShurikVch]

My copy of the Epic Handbook doesn't have any typos in the Eye of Gruumsh item description.

No disrespect, but did you checked it with magnifying glass?
The "e" may look kinda like "c" (and, considering we already know the text is about orcs and their deity, it's trivially easy to read "ore" as "orc")

[Wildstag]

To be fair Elf has its uses. Assuming Flaws are allowed then Dragonwroght + Elf lets you be a Dragon with the Elf subtype assuming you get revived. I have yet to find a good use for this but i’m sure there’s something

Ah, but its usefulness comes back around, since it can only be selected by mistake.

[Promethean]

...Kobold feat that spontaneously turns you into an elf...

I'm sorry, What?

[hamishspence]

No disrespect, but did you checked it with magnifying glass?
The "e" may look kinda like "c" (and, considering we already know the text is about orcs and their deity, it's trivially easy to read "ore" as "orc")

Yes, I did, and it's unambiguously spelled correctly. Maybe it was a different print run that had the misspelling?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, I did, and it's unambiguously spelled correctly. Maybe it was a different print run that had the misspelling?

Or maybe it's a bad OCR scan and someone copied/pasted without doing a manual spell-check.

[Jervis]

Ah, but its usefulness comes back around, since it can only be selected by mistake.

You just took a flaw and spent at minimum 1500 GP to come back to life so you can look like an elf, that qualifies as a mistake by any metric

I'm sorry, What?

Elf

Prerequisites: Kobold only, must be selected by mistake

Benefits: You are instantaneously Polymorphed into an Elf and killed by other Kobolds (paraphrasing)

As a Raw note the Polymorph effect is a instantaneous duration, meaning it can’t be dispelled and lasts forever. If you also selected Dragonwroght you’re a elf with the dragon type. Granted you need someone to revive you.

[The Viscount]

That would explain how this is "indistinguishable from a normal human at distances greater than 30 feet".

My favorite for this is the ripper, which says "What first looked like a humanoid figure striding through the nearby alley suddenly appears far too alien to be any human."

[Jervis]

My favorite for this is the ripper, which says "What first looked like a humanoid figure striding through the nearby alley suddenly appears far too alien to be any human."

I’ll actually give that one the benefit of the doubt. In a dark ally that could pass for human at a distance. It’s vaguely humanoid in shape and full black so on a dark night making out more than it’s body shape would be difficult

[Bonzai]

I always found it hilarious that casting a darkness spell in an area with no light actually improves your ability to see, as it creates shadowy illumination.

[Seward]

But commoners don't have any of the Knowledge (X) skills as class skills. So that's a hefty investment with their 2+INT skill points, making it so a commoner who does know how to distinguish a wolf from his sheep is also worse at just about everything else they do.

Generally Profession skills are supposed to fill that gap.

Profession - Farmer will let him know (without rolling even, unless unwise enough to not be able to make a DC0 check) that a domesticated animal is different from a wild animal, including distinguishing a dog from a wolf given an appropriate spot check. It will also let him know who he pays taxes to, or owes other services to, which would include anybody who might ask anything of him (mayor and nobility included) plus anybody local who might buy his excess produce, might sell him something he needs and might give him shelter (eg tavern) if his marketplace to sell excess and buy supplies is far enough away to require an overnight stay. He'll also know all about the local wildlife inclined to eat stuff on his farm (foxes and chickens/eggs, deer and veggie garden, crows and corn etc) although he might not know their proper names, mating habits etc, he will know what he should do to prevent losing his crop and livestock to them, or he'll be a dead farmer next winter from starvation.

A farmer who never has a surplus, can never afford to buy anything, owes no service/taxes to anybody and basically works his plot somehow in isolation. Although that is more like "profession hermit". He'll still know his in-laws and other kin, at minimum.

Profession Peasant has a somewhat different mix of skills, depending on the estate (some peasants or serfs or slaves worked on what would be considered collective farms today, with protection from wildlife provided by others, and would have a narrower skillset, but would tend to be stronger in knowing things like which of his many superiors is likely to offer violence, which care if somebody gets hurt, etc)

Kn Nature gives you a chance to know about all animals, and a chance to know something about how they behave in their natural context. Profession Farmer lets you know how to care for a cow, keep foxes out of your chicken coop and keep ravens from flying off with the eggs and crows from eating your corn before you can harvest. You also know about seasons and local weather, without needing a survival check etc.

As a Raw note the Polymorph effect is a instantaneous duration, meaning it can’t be dispelled and lasts forever. If you also selected Dragonwroght you’re a elf with the dragon type. Granted you need someone to revive you.

Honestly getting baleful polymorph into an Elf would be a great deal for most humanoid races. Near immortality and not too much mental change. (which brings to mind 1st edition longevity potions. Power component was Vampire Ichor, Lich Dust or Elf Blood. Guess who got mugged by wizards wanting to make longevity potions? 3 letter word, begins with "E")

[King of Nowhere]

So "where's my cow" by terry pratchett makes sense

Where's my cow?

Is that my cow?

It goes, "Baa!"

It is a sheep! That's not my cow!

so somebody made a knowledge check to know a cow, and he got a 17. the cow has 4 hit dice, so it's dc 14 to get something, plus 5 for any additional piece of information. So, having gotten only one useful information, the protagonist knows the cow goes MOOOOOO. At some point he sees a bunch of animals he's unable to identify for lack of appropriate knowledge checks, but he still knws that useful bit of information, that the cow goes MOOOOO. so he tries to hear the other animals vocalize, so he can tell they're not cows.


but what i find most funny about raw is that the dmg keeps saying left and right that everything is subject to the dm adjudication and common sense, and that most of that stuff is to be treated as loose guidelines, or as help for the dm who's caught off guard and does not know how to continue. And yet a lot of players insist that those rules be followed to the letter and that's how the game is meant to be played

[Jervis]

Honestly getting baleful polymorph into an Elf would be a great deal for most humanoid races.

Elves are animals confirmed.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Elves are animals confirmed.

Uppity animals with their noses in the air who think they're better than everyone else and who have institutionalized racism to the point of extreme xenophobia, and yet are somehow still "Good." Are we sure Corellon Larethian isn't an aspect of The Burning Hate?

[AvatarVecna]

So "where's my cow" by terry pratchett makes sense

so somebody made a knowledge check to know a cow, and he got a 17. the cow has 4 hit dice, so it's dc 14 to get something, plus 5 for any additional piece of information. So, having gotten only one useful information, the protagonist knows the cow goes MOOOOOO. At some point he sees a bunch of animals he's unable to identify for lack of appropriate knowledge checks, but he still knws that useful bit of information, that the cow goes MOOOOO. so he tries to hear the other animals vocalize, so he can tell they're not cows.


but what i find most funny about raw is that the dmg keeps saying left and right that everything is subject to the dm adjudication and common sense, and that most of that stuff is to be treated as loose guidelines, or as help for the dm who's caught off guard and does not know how to continue. And yet a lot of players insist that those rules be followed to the letter and that's how the game is meant to be played

Nobody is saying "if you don't follow the rules in the books, the game police will come arrest you". The reason RAW takes precedent in theoretical forum discussions is because there's never going to be widespread agreement on what a "reasonable DM" would houserule to be the case. RAW discussions are about determining using reading comprehension what would happen if a DM did not houserule the situation. The issue is that when some people say "the game should work like this", they are making a factual statement akin to "if you add 2 and 2, it should add up to 4", and other people are hearing an opinion statement something akin to "if you jump out a window, you should go to jail, because it would be very unfair if you didn't". The second can sound ridiculous depending on the context, but the miscommunication is because the second person thinks the first is advocating to jail people for non-crimes, while the first is really just commenting on what a straightforward reading of the crime rules would indicate occurs to window-jumpers.

[Bohandas]

That's not standard. Nowhere in the Player's Handbook is that mentioned (in fact, it doesn't mention at all how much info you get for whatever DC). Just because later books (I think it started with MM4) decided to make their predefined skill checks depended on hit dice doesn't mean that you need to do the same. And as wolves, your king and so on are common knowledge, they get common knowledge DCs. Apply a bit of common sense, please.

They had a weird obsession with hit dice in 3.5e that got continually worse

[MaxiDuRaritry]

They had a weird obsession with hit dice in 3.5e that got continually worse

At least they found something to use other than "L-E-V-E-L."

[Beni-Kujaku]

That's something pretty interesting in my opinion: that idea that everybody, from an elf to a modron, is a creature which follows the exact same rules. Levels and hit dice are just two faces of the same coin. Every aberration has the same BAB. Anybody can have a class level, provided they're intelligent enough to learn. That was definitely not the case in 4e, where "players" and "monsters" had different rules, and not really in 5e, with legendary actions, resistances and other similar things (also, I think there are way fewer non-humanoid monsters with class levels than in 3.5). In my opinion, that's how you can create a form of tolerance. Not by denying the difference between races, but by acknowledging it and still saying that it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things.

[Scots Dragon]

That's something pretty interesting in my opinion: that idea that everybody, from an elf to a modron, is a creature which follows the exact same rules. Levels and hit dice are just two faces of the same coin. Every aberration has the same BAB. Anybody can have a class level, provided they're intelligent enough to learn. That was definitely not the case in 4e, where "players" and "monsters" had different rules, and not really in 5e, with legendary actions, resistances and other similar things (also, I think there are way fewer non-humanoid monsters with class levels than in 3.5). In my opinion, that's how you can create a form of tolerance. Not by denying the difference between races, but by acknowledging it and still saying that it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things.

Personally I see this as a positive. It meant that you didn't have to learn two entirely separate systems for building characters versus building monsters and NPCs.

[Azuresun]

Personally I see this as a positive. It meant that you didn't have to learn two entirely separate systems for building characters versus building monsters and NPCs.

There were two problems with that.

One is that NPC's don't need the same complexity as a PC if their entire purpose is to fight the party once then die. They barely need it if they're a regular and recurring fleshed-out character.

The other is that all creatures of a type having the same advancement made it very hard to create atypical monsters, such as a warrior fey, and meant that undead needed huge numbers of HD to make up for their hit points and base attack being so bad. You could really see acknowledgement of the problem in later Monster Manuals, with random bonuses to stats and attacks to get the numbers where they needed to be, notes of "this monster always uses Power Attack at -X / +Y", and all undead getting Unholy Toughness to bring their HP up to spec without making them impossible to turn.

[Promethean]

On the original topic, because the natural attacks of a creature count as the same source that overcomes their DR, the natural attacks of Alignment-based creatures count as the opposite alignment.

For outsiders this is doubly hilarious because they have alignment subtypes, so a Demon with DR/Lawful has natural attacks that count as Lawful and Chaotic at the same time.

I'm pretty sure there's a demon out there with DR/Lawful or Good, meaning their natural attacks count a Lawful, Good, Chaotic, and Evil all at the same time.

Edit: It appears I was wrong, but that is itself kind of hilarious. That means two golems with DR/adamantine can't overcome each other's DR.

[InvisibleBison]

There were two problems with that.

One is that NPC's don't need the same complexity as a PC if their entire purpose is to fight the party once then die. They barely need it if they're a regular and recurring fleshed-out character.

The other is that all creatures of a type having the same advancement made it very hard to create atypical monsters, such as a warrior fey, and meant that undead needed huge numbers of HD to make up for their hit points and base attack being so bad. You could really see acknowledgement of the problem in later Monster Manuals, with random bonuses to stats and attacks to get the numbers where they needed to be, notes of "this monster always uses Power Attack at -X / +Y", and all undead getting Unholy Toughness to bring their HP up to spec without making them impossible to turn.

These are both solvable problems. The first can be solved by having a bunch of 90% complete NPCs included in the books somewhere that the DM can grab and quickly customize, so that it doesn't take a lot of effort to create a 1-scene character. The second can be solved by ditching type-based hit dice in favor of role-based monster classes.

[Beni-Kujaku]

adjusts glasses Um, actually...
With the exception of /magic and /epic DR, basically no DR lets natural weapons overcome similar DR. Demons with DR 10/cold iron and good can't overcome /cold iron DR any more than they can overcome /good DR.
Not sure this changes your analysis, but the more you know.

Thus spoke GWG.

[Gemini476]

Yeah, /magic and /epic being different from the others is pretty explicit.

e.g. MM p.307

Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. For example, skeletons have damage reduction 5/bludgeoning. When hit with slashing or piercing weapons, the damage dealt by each attack is reduced by 5 points, but bludgeoning weapons deal full damage.
[...]
A few very powerful monsters, such as the solar and the tarrasque, are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Note also that [Good] et. al. are a bit special, since they also apply to weapons that they carry - which is important, because the Balor's DR 15/cold iron and good needs the weapon to be cold iron and good. (The Babau's DR 10/cold iron or good is an or, though.)

On that note, the Outsiders in the Monster Manual are mildly notable for having weapons that are just, well, normal weapons. Magical, sure, but they're not made out of cold iron or silver or anything. You'd kind of expect them to if the Blood War's still raging.

In fact, let's check it!

Cold Iron weapons in the Monster Manual:
Hound Archon Hero (+2 cold iron greatsword)
Half-Celestial 9th-Level Human Paladin (10 cold iron arrows)
Harpy Archer (10 cold iron arrows)

Silver weapons in the Monster Manual:
9th+ Level Githyanki (Githyanki Silver Swords)
Half-Celestial 9th-Level Human Paladin (10 silvered arrows)
Harpy Archer (10 silver arrows)

Putting aside the Harpy (a 7th-level fighter with a +1 frost composite longbow), what makes this more puzzling is that Chain Devils, Horned Devils, and Pit Fiends all have Regeneration that can only be beaten by (good-aligned) silvered weapons, meaning that you'd kind of expect them to be a bit of a problem on the front lines of the blood war.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Putting aside the Harpy (a 7th-level fighter with a +1 frost composite longbow), what makes this more puzzling is that Chain Devils, Horned Devils, and Pit Fiends all have Regeneration that can only be beaten by (good-aligned) silvered weapons, meaning that you'd kind of expect them to be a bit of a problem on the front lines of the blood war.

Perhaps so they can more easily capture enemy outsiders, since slaying them will usually just send them back to their home plane?

[hamishspence]

On the original topic, because the natural attacks of a creature count as the same source that overcomes their DR, the natural attacks of Alignment-based creatures count as the opposite alignment.

For outsiders this is doubly hilarious because they have alignment subtypes, so a Demon with DR/Lawful has natural attacks that count as Lawful and Chaotic at the same time.

I'm pretty sure there's a demon out there with DR/Lawful or Good, meaning their natural attacks count a Lawful, Good, Chaotic, and Evil all at the same time.

Where's that stated?

As far as I can tell, having a DR/x does not automatically come with the ability to overcome DR/x, as well as Alignment Strike.

For an obvious example, take an Inevitable - it has DR/chaotic, and it has the Alignment subtype: Lawful.

That means that it automatically overcomes DR/lawful - not that it automatically overcomes DR/chaotic because it has DR/chaotic itself.

An inevitable has no particular vulnerability to another inevitable's attacks.

Only DR/magic and DR/epic come with "magic strike" and "epic strike"

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

DR/lawful doesn't come with "lawful strike" and DR/chaotic doesn't come with "chaotic strike" unless there's something in the rules that I'm missing.