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Thread: Mechanics that dont make sense
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2022-01-08, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
The mechanics don't support that, they actively go against that reasoning. Combat based effects (which I will define as "features and spells that are primarily or only effective in combat") are, in almost ever case where they have a duration, tied to a turn based duration and those durations are specifically tied to a certain creatures turn.
Stunning Strike - The end of your next turn
Shield/Absorb Elements/Dodge - Until the start of your next turn
Reactions returning - At the start of your next turn
Help/Ready - Before the start of your next turn
Ongoing spell saving throws - The beginning or end of a turn, determined by the spell
Surprise - until the end of your first turn
Assassinate - Against creatures who haven't taken a turn
Dash - for the current turn
The game is designed to use turns as a time indicator in combat, their are so many effects beyond what I've listed that rely on using a turn as an indication of their timing or duration that to insist they can't or shouldn't be used as one is absolutely confusing to me.
Let's not get overly specific into the details of how promotional coupons work*, the point is that you have a working and usable coupon that says that you get 10% of your next visit. It will work on your next visit, even if you've never been their because the next time you visit will be your first time.
Spoiler: *Unrelated retail worker tangentIt would be an absolute nightmare to try and play these word games with any customer, if the coupon is valid we take the coupon. The only possible way we could prevent them from using an applicable coupon is for them not to have the coupon until after that transaction and EVEN THEN our customer service is encouraged to honor and refund those customers for the amount if they happen upon or had forgotten a coupon for an item in the transaction. The grace period is incredibly generous as well, I recall that we've refunded customers for products purchased years ago.
We've even refunded for food items that were obviously spoiled through negligence because we can't prove otherwise and it's better to lose a few dollars than deal with an irate customer complaining higher and higher up the chain of command.
So yeah, your next visit is the next time you come in, even if you just moved here from a different planet and your foster brother got his fiancé's cousin's nephew to give you the discount and you've never been here before.Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2022-01-08 at 10:48 PM.
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2022-01-08, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Yes. Your first visit can be your next visit. I read a magazine with the voucher, I tear it out, I go to the store. First visit. This is the “next time” I go to this store. It’s also the first. It might be the only and also the last. All these things can be true at once. It’s not “next time unless it is your first” it is on your nth+1 visit whether n is 0 or not.
If I’m at the store and I’m given it in the store then that is like using my reaction on my turn. My next visit is clearly not my current visit. There is no confusion at all to the vast majority of English speakers. I have to work really hard to even understand how you can force any other reading.
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2022-01-08, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Without exception, every single time I've experienced anything akin to "10% off your next visit" (like in an advertisement or something) they mean literally the next time you walk into the store, which could indeed be the first time you've ever done it. I've never even heard of anyone saying they went to the store and was told they can't benefit from the promotion (or whatever) because they didn't provide some kind of evidence that they had a "previous" visit.
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2022-01-08, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Aside from the obvious difference in reaction spells and abilities, there isn't any other conflict. I can give you the exact same argument.
1) Stunning Strike - The end of your next turn
I run it same thing as Shield. Aside from the AoO scenario there isn't any other conflict.
2) Shield/Absorb Elements/Dodge - Until the start of your next turn
Already discussed
3) Reactions returning - At the start of your next turn
Already discussed
4) Help/Ready - Before the start of your next turn
No conflict at all because they are actions.
5) Ongoing spell saving throws - The beginning or end of a turn, determined by the spell
All these are at the start/end of each of turns. Not next turn, so no conflict at all.
6) Surprise - until the end of your first turn
Why not "next turn" then if we can equate first with next? My reading has no conflict with surprise.
7) Assassinate - Against creatures who haven't taken a turn
No conflict
8) Dash - for the current turn
No conflict
In any case, it seems like the majority think that my reading is bizarre, so I will try to use your reading in other discussions. As I said I have no problem with either reading because it's not that important. Out of curiosity I asked my gf to read the rule and she agreed with me so at least I know I'm not completely crazy. Or we could both be crazy, dunno. I'm not changing my mind anyway :p
About the coupons:
If you get a coupon from an outside source, yes, the next visit will be the first. If the store is the only establishment that provides the coupons through the first purchase, then you need to make your first visit, get a coupon with your receipt, and use it on your next. Let's not compare apples and oranges here. The definition of next is the same in every language. It's the exact same language used in my country too. Buy something, get a bonus/points/discount for your next purchase. If you have already have a coupon from another store/magazine/whatever or someone gave you points etc, then you don't need to have your "first" visit, your next is your first.Last edited by Gtdead; 2022-01-08 at 11:07 PM.
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2022-01-08, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
I was demonstrating instances where your turn is used to determine how long an effect remains for and instances where that duration can fluctuate depending on your position in initiative. Turns are used as a way to track time in combat, it's just how the system works and your claim was that they shouldn't/aren't. All of these examples clearly conflict with the idea that your turn is not designed to be used as a way to track time in a sequence of events.
Clearly we're at an impasse here, at this point I think it's at the most fundamental level of how 5E combat is designed to run rather than this specific instance within it. You're right though, as long as you continue to have fun in your own games it's not big deal... it's just a really bizarre way to read "next".
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2022-01-08, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
It somewhat tracks time but it's not perfect like a round is. It's like using weight for mass when it measures force. It mostly works, but it's not exactly correct. For example, if a level 17 Thief Rogue with Thief's Reflexes managed to get shield somehow, his shield on the first round would last shorter because he gets two turns.
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2022-01-08, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
I'm not talking about a narrative sense of time, I'm talking about a mechanical sense of time. Rounds have a static narrative duration (6 seconds) with a defined start and end point, they can't be properly used to time events that last for durations that aren't divisible by that or have start/end points during a round.
That's where turns come in, they're a good way to break rounds down into parts for keeping track of these effects that have durations that extend between several rounds or only last for parts of one. It's a time keeping tool for players.
You're correct too, that's exactly how it would work for the Thief. I think the benefits of having two turns in the first round will heavily outweigh the extremely specific and most likely inapplicable potential downside.Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2022-01-08 at 11:41 PM.
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2022-01-08, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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2022-01-09, 03:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
No it doesn't. This isn't precise language. If only the store hands out the coupons, then your next time can't be the first time. If your friend gives you his coupon, then your next time can be a first time, but it's cheating. Additionally it doesn't matter if the coupon says "on your next visit". It's just a form of currency accepted by the store. It can say " idiots get 10% off on the item of their choice". Who's the idiot, the one who gets offended or the one who gets the 10% off? Marketing doesn't change the meaning of words.
I read rules in an algorithmic fashion. To have a next turn, I require a previous turn. But ok, enough about that. I'm tapping out. As I said, for the purposes of online discussions I'll use the majority's reading in the future.
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2022-01-09, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-01-09, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
What if they sent it to me in the mail? Dominos does this all the time.
If your friend gives you his coupon, then your next time can be a first time, but it's cheating.
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2022-01-09, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
One is circumstance and the other is a strict sequence of events. There is absolutely no chance that I can get a discount in my first ever hotel booking on the site I'm using. I can only get it on my next ones (read second and subsequent) once the first payment has been finalized. I can't get someone else's discount because it's account based, I can't get a coupon from a magazine or any other way. There is no possible scenario where first = next because the system is strictly enforced. There is no mistaking or any hope that I will get the discount on my first ever payment and I never thought otherwise when I first saw the advertisement.
No, it's not beside the point. I know of pizzerias that don't even ask you for coupons anymore and give you the discount anyway, while their online delivery prices are the same as the coupon discounted ones. It's not a good example to define the word "next" and it's not enforced in any shape or form unlike the previous example of booking. Or at least it's not a good example to be used against my argument, because I argue for a tightly regulated system, not a pizzeria's marketing move that doesn't have any actual rules. I admit that it can happen due to circumstance. In the same vein I can hold on to my coupon and use it on my tenth purchase. Is next = tenth now? Also how exactly does Dominos have your mail to send you these coupons in the first place.Last edited by Gtdead; 2022-01-09 at 09:29 AM.
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2022-01-09, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Of course, because the condition that provided the discount was the close of the sale of the current booking. "Next" means what it seems to mean.
But if the event that provides the discount isn't dependent on an existing prior transaction -- like clipping a coupon from a magazine (if people still do this) or an event that happens prior to your first turn in combat -- then your "next" event is just the next one that comes along. In the case of the coupon, it's the next time you book a hotel room, even if it's the first time you've ever done it. In the case of D&D, the "next" turn is your next turn that comes along, even if it's your first one in the first round.
I'm curious how you play stuff like this. Combat starts. Your opponent beats your initiative. He runs away from you. Do you get to use your reaction to OA him? Or are you prohibited from doing that since you haven't had a turn yet? No surprise rules here, just a simple combat.
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2022-01-09, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
No, you can use your reaction normally, you just don't get it back during the first round of combat where you have your first turn, maintaining the 1 reaction/round quota. A scenario may happen where you get to use your reaction twice in a single round, but that would mean that you didn't use it during the previous round. On subsequent turns it works as usual.
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2022-01-09, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
{scrubbed}
Here's one that doesn't make sense to me. Deception, Persuasion, and Intimidation all exist as different skills. They all do the exact same thing mechanically, persuade people with Charisma. This should be one skill.
Their differentiation is narrative, not mechanical. We don't have backhand slash, overhead slash, and forehand slash for swinging a sword.Last edited by Peelee; 2022-01-17 at 03:04 PM.
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2022-01-09, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Last edited by Peelee; 2022-01-19 at 02:03 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-01-09, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
I think Deception is in arguably a distinct skill from the other two: its mechanical use is to deceive. To conceal truth or convince of an untruth. It does not directly influence behavior: you can convince the guard that you're a circus performer rather than an adventurer; he still isn't letting you in to the King's bedchamber while the Queen is working with him on an heir.
Deception is useful for getting people to act in certain ways only in that it can make Persuasion or Intimidation checks more persuasive. "The King is about to be assassinated but I can save his life" might involve both deception and persuasion checks.
The more I think about it, though, the more I grow frustrated with the distinction between intimidation and persuasion. On the one hand, there is an obvious difference in ability and use, so having it be possible to do one and not the other makes sense. On the other, you can just change your "stunt" to turn one into the other, so why would you ever need both? And yet, those who want to role play with some variety of approaches will want both. It feels like an RP tax.
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2022-01-09, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
PHB: When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn.
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2022-01-09, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
They ARE one skill in 5e, because there are no "skills." What you're actually doing is making a Charisma check, and then convincing your DM that your character's proficiency bonus should apply to it based on their approach. Deception/Intimidation/Persuasion proficiencies are just ways to get that bonus applied more easily; you don't actually need all three of them if you're sufficiently creative and your GM is sufficiently lenient.
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2022-01-09, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Further, some of them work better with different abilities in certain circumstances. You can do Strength (Intimidation) or Intelligence (Persuasion) as long as your DM understands that it's not breaking the rules to swap these things out. They represent different actions. Strength (Intimidation) is showing off your physicality in a way that's different from Charisma (Intimidation). Heck, I'd say a number of derring-do stunts could be Strength (Performance) or Dexterity (Performance).
I do think the books do a lousy job of explaining how to make "skill" checks. There's a whole facet of the game there that could be explored.
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2022-01-09, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Again, I agree on Persuasion vs. Intimidation, but Deception is used for a different end result.
Persuasion doesn't trick people into believing things that aren't true, and Deception doesn't let the deceiver guide the reaction to the new belief.
Deception can hide your tells in a poker game, but it can't convince the cautious player with a low hand to risk it nor an aggressive player with a high hand that your hand is the one that could beat his. Persuasion can't convince the player with the low hand to call when he can tell you're going to win because he read you like a book. Nor will Intimidation (barring extra-game threats) persuade the player with the high hand who read your mediocre hand on your face that he should fold. You'd need both Deception and one of the others to actually guide the other player's behavior.
Any of them alone will fail because the player either knows your feelings on your hand, or is going to act on his own recognissance and may surprise you as to his choice given what you think you've tricked him into believing.
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2022-01-09, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
While we're talking about Charisma skills, I don't get why Performance is a skill. It should be covered under tool proficiencies-instruments or singing or whatever.
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2022-01-09, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
I'm not saying Deception proficiency is the same as the other two. I'm saying that that ultimately what you're doing is trying to convince someone of something (whether believing something to be true they might not otherwise, or to follow a course of action they might not otherwise) in such a way that your proficiency bonus should apply. None of 5e's "skills" are actually needed for that unless your DM requires them to be. Unlike prior editions, there are no specific rules tied in to Bluff/Deception vs. Diplomacy/Persusasion etc that can only be invoked by investing in those skills - they're all just ability checks.
So if you want to threaten someone into not questioning a lie, or trick someone into being your friend, you can do these things in 5e much more readily than before, because the separation between these approaches no longer exists.Last edited by Psyren; 2022-01-09 at 11:24 AM.
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2022-01-09, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-01-09, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
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2022-01-09, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
I would argue that some are specifically needed. Some features or abilities specifically call them out. A kenku’s mimicry comes to mind, as it specifies charisma(deception) against wisdom(insight). Same with i think a changeling’s disguise. But for more freeform checks not specified ii will agree that the ability and proficiency needed are up to the dm. Unfortunately, most dm’s default to the given ability score rather than allowing alternative ability scores.
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2022-01-09, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-01-09, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
In fairness there is a difference between the acts of how competently you can play an instrument and how competently you can entertain a crowd.
Being able to play an instrument well is not the same thing as being able to feel the mood of the crowd and know what to play next and handle the hecklers and so on. Of course a good bard will be good at both. It would probably make more sense most of the time to test the tool proficiency and then depending on the outcome of that test for it to give you advantage (or nothing or disadvantage) on the Performance test.
Of course this is arguably more in depth than 5E likes to get with its skill systems so I get being grumpy about it but I don't think its fair to say it doesn't make sense.
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2022-01-09, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-01-09, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mechanics that dont make sense
Even for things like Kenku mimicry, without Deception you're just making a Charisma check. But depending on the situation and what you're attempting to do, the DM might allow you to use your proficiency bonus anyway, despite it not coming from Deception.
I'm okay with defaulting to the listed ability scores for most things, but if the player is creative then I agree, alternative ability scores should be allowed. Strength (Intimidate) being a prime example.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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