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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    C) The cat that poofed away to reveal that it was actually Rumplestilskin all along using True Polymorph as a disguise to fool you.
    The intent behind why a creature was True Polymorphed doesn’t change how the spell works.

    Whether they were changed as a disguise or as a punishment, the spell works the same: they’re a cat and not a person.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    I appreciate your contribution to this thread as you are recognizing that there is some thorniness here.
    While I disagree with you, I don't think there's any value in misrepresenting your argument. (Though I think probably RSP just misunderstood what you were saying, and wasn't misrepresenting what you said on purpose.) In fact, demolition an argument no one actually made sounds like one of the biggest wastes of time.

    I think you agree with my discussion of what is going on so far.

    We differ in our application of Truesight to the scenario.
    I'm... not sure that we do. Truesight isn't the issue here, it's how Polymorph works that's the issue. How I read True Polymorph is that it replaces the creature with the object. The creature does not exist anymore. Only the object. The creature who once was, is now the object.

    If you True Polymorph Bob into a potted plant, the creature Bob is replaced by a potted plant. Now, Bob still exists, and Bob is the potted plant. But Bob is no longer a creature. However, the transformation is tenuous, and Bob's true nature hasn't been changed. Something like truesight can see that the potted plant was once Bob, the creature, but that doesn't change the fact that right now, Bob is still a potted plant. The tenuous nature of the transformation makes it easier to reverse; a simple casting of Dispel Magic can do it (though you may need to upcast it or succeed on the ability check).

    The only thing that's really different between a temporary transformation and a permanent one is that the temporary transformation doesn't affect the creature's true form. But in both cases, the creature still is what they transformed into, as long as the transformation persists. Actually, scratch this, it has nothing to do with temporary or permanent. Different transformation abilities work differently, so this is specifically because of how Polymorph works.

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    There are two cats in a room. I cast Dispel Magic on both cats and one of the cats poofs away and reveals Rumplestilskin.

    Which cat was an honest-to-god thoroughly indistinguishable from an actual true cat cat and for all intents and purposes was indeed a true cat?

    A) Both of them

    B) The cat that didn't poof away when Dispel Magic was cast

    C) The cat that poofed away to reveal that it was actually Rumplestilskin all along using True Polymorph as a disguise to fool you.
    This is a trick question, because it depends on what you mean by "true cat". Both are cats. But only one of them has their true form as a cat. But what does this even mean? I'll tell you.

    If you Polymorph someone into a cat, they become a Beast during the transformation, and thus are a valid target for, say, Animal Friendship, which only affects beasts. That should be all the indication you need that they are, in fact, a "real" cat.

    So let's consider a different example. Let's say a lich Polymorphs into a cat. They are no longer undead, but a beast, and thus can enter a Hallow area. Detecting that their true form is undead does not prevent this. Because right now, they are a beast. Not undead. Turn Undead also wouldn't work against them. It is part of the effect of Polymorph (and also True Polymorph) that the target becomes a real cat (or whatever you transform them into), and that they stop being whatever they were before until the spell ends. It's worth noting that a lot of shapechanging abilities, like those of a vampire, don't change its creature type, so even in bat form, they are still undead. That's because these abilities work differently from Polymorph.

    Again, this is specifically because of how Polymorph works. Not truesight, or shapechanging in general. It's specifically Polymorph.

    There might be abilities out there that can interact with a creature's true form (such as truesight itself). EB is not one of those abilities, and thus it doesn't matter whether or not you can perceive their true form, or even what their true form is. EB doesn't care about their true form. Only their current form.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I'll echo Greywander here. Both in that you cannot target a creature transformed into a statue by True Polymorph as if they're a creature, since they're not a creature, they're an object. And in that Eldritch Blast being unable to target objects is just kinda dumb, and should be changed.
    TBH, I could actually see an ability that only affects creatures and doesn't harm objects. A "ghost bolt" or something. Such an ability would be quite spooky. That said, I'd almost expect such an ability to be able to ignore armor and go through walls (though if you can't see your target...), so the fact that EB doesn't means that it must be interacting with the wall in some way. I'd also expect an ability like this to be the exception, rather than the rule, and yet it seems like most damage cantrips can't target objects.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Why would that matter for the situation in your OP?

    First, Dispel Magic does not affect creatures, it affects the magical effects on the creatures.

    Second, if you cast a spell that auto-killed all the cats in the AoE, it would kill a creature True Polymorphed into a cat.

    Furthermore, if you cast a spell that auto-killed the creature type Rumplestilskin usually is, it would have no effect on Rumplestilskin True Polymorphed into a cat.
    while i agree with you that the post in question needs some clarification as to its relevance. i will point out that autokilling the cat would not kill the creature, only revert it.

    the transformation from true polymorph is reverted if the form 'drops to 0 hit points or dies'

    and when the creature reverts they return to the HP they were at when initially polymorphed. which would override the death.

    now, if you were intending to just say that the auto-kill spell would kill the cat (and therefore end the polymorph) then fair enough, and i agree. im not trying to argue semantics here, just mentioning this because its a common misconception. people think death effects bypass the defensive benefits of polymorph, when they don't.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    There are two cats in a room. I cast Dispel Magic on both cats and one of the cats poofs away and reveals Rumplestilskin.

    Which cat was an honest-to-god thoroughly indistinguishable from an actual true cat cat and for all intents and purposes was indeed a true cat?

    A) Both of them

    B) The cat that didn't poof away when Dispel Magic was cast

    C) The cat that poofed away to reveal that it was actually Rumplestilskin all along using True Polymorph as a disguise to fool you.
    Truesight would reveal that the actual true cat is the actual true cat and the other cat is actually a humanoid that is being transformed by a magical effect into a cat and so not an actual true cat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Truesight isn't the issue here, it's how Polymorph works that's the issue. How I read True Polymorph is that it replaces the creature with the object. The creature does not exist anymore. Only the object. The creature who once was, is now the object.
    This isn't true. True Polymorph applies a process to the source creature to derive the transformed object in an ongoing magical effect (Creature Into Object). Above I showed how if you removed the creature (by killing the creature in an Antimagic Field) you break the process. So the source creature must exist in some fashion or the process breaks and the magical effect ceases to function and goes inert. Truesight reveals that the creature does exist as the statue is not an actual true statue but a creature that is being transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a statue. Truesight reveals how things actually ARE.

    Of course if we were talking about an Instantaneous transmutation that would be different. A risky Wish or Divine Intervention actually truly replaces the creature with an object.
    Last edited by AIResearch; 2022-01-07 at 02:23 AM.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    Truesight would reveal that the actual true cat is the actual true cat and the other cat is actually a humanoid that is being transformed by a magical effect into a cat and so not an actual true cat.
    You... do realize you just replied to your own post?

    This isn't true.
    It is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by True Polymorph
    Creature into Object. If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form, as long as the object's size is no larger than the creature's size. The creature's statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form.
    The creature's statistics become those of the object. Part of the object's statistics is being an object, and not a creature. As long as the spell is in effect, the creature is no longer a creature, but an object.

    Truesight reveals how things actually ARE.
    Does it? Let's check.
    Quote Originally Posted by True Seeing
    This spell gives the willing creature you touch the ability to see things as they actually are. For the duration, the creature has truesight, notices secret doors hidden by magic, and can see into the Ethereal Plane, all out to a range of 120 feet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Truesight
    A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.
    So technically, you're wrong. Truesight doesn't give you "the ability to see things as they actually are," True Seeing does. Okay, so how does True Seeing do this? Well, it gives a creature truesight, allows the creature to automatically notice secret doors hidden by magic, and see into the Ethereal Plane (redundant because truesight gives you this anyway). Nothing in truesight itself says anything about "seeing things as they actually are". What truesight does say is that you can perceive the original form of a creature transformed by magic.

    So, you would look at the statue, and you would see the BBEG transformed into a statue. That's "things as they actually are". It's not "the BBEG", it's "the BBEG transformed into a statue". The "transformed into a statue" is part of "things as they actually are". It's the BBEG. You can see that. It's also a statue. You can see that, too. The BBEG's statistics become those of the statue, including the fact that the statue is an object, for as long as they are a statue. You can see that, too. That's the true reality that you can see.

    The BBEG is an object, at that moment. Nothing about truesight or True Seeing changes them back into a creature, it merely let's you perceive that they are, in fact, the BBEG.

    Let me try another analogy. Let's say you are a teacher. That is your "true form". Summer comes and school is out, so you have no work. You get a temp job working at McDonald's. I come in and see you working. I have truesight. I can see that your real job is as a teacher. But in that moment, you are not a teacher, you are a burger flipper. You are not teaching, you are flipping burgers. Once summer ends, you will cease to be a burger flipper and revert back to being a teacher.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    So, you would look at the statue, and you would see the BBEG transformed into a statue. That's "things as they actually are". It's not "the BBEG", it's "the BBEG transformed into a statue". The "transformed into a statue" is part of "things as they actually are". It's the BBEG. You can see that. It's also a statue. You can see that, too. The BBEG's statistics become those of the statue, including the fact that the statue is an object, for as long as they are a statue. You can see that, too. That's the true reality that you can see.

    The BBEG is an object, at that moment. Nothing about truesight or True Seeing changes them back into a creature, it merely let's you perceive that they are, in fact, the BBEG.
    Truesight enables the character with this ability to perceive that the statue is not an actual true statue but rather in actual fact a creature that is being transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a statue.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    Truesight enables the character with this ability to perceive that the statue is not an actual true statue but rather in actual fact a creature that is being transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a statue.
    Semantics. Is the BBEG a creature, or object? If they're an object, why would you think you can target them with EB? If they're a creature, how do you reconcile that with the text of True Polymorph?

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnWildefyr View Post
    It is more accurate to say that you perceive that the statue you are looking at was the BBEG, not the other way around. Can't target a statue with a spell that targets creatures.

    Note {the spell description says} "returns to its normal form." That means it is not in its normal form for the spell duration, regardless of what you perceive, or why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    {snip}

    So technically, you're wrong. Truesight doesn't give you "the ability to see things as they actually are," True Seeing does. Okay, so how does True Seeing do this? Well, it gives a creature truesight, allows the creature to automatically notice secret doors hidden by magic, and see into the Ethereal Plane (redundant because truesight gives you this anyway). Nothing in truesight itself says anything about "seeing things as they actually are". What truesight does say is that you can perceive the original form of a creature transformed by magic.

    So, you would look at the statue, and you would see the BBEG transformed into a statue. That's "things as they actually are". It's not "the BBEG", it's "the BBEG transformed into a statue". The "transformed into a statue" is part of "things as they actually are". It's the BBEG. You can see that. It's also a statue. You can see that, too. The BBEG's statistics become those of the statue, including the fact that the statue is an object, for as long as they are a statue. You can see that, too. That's the true reality that you can see.

    The BBEG is an object, at that moment. Nothing about truesight or True Seeing changes them back into a creature, it merely let's you perceive that they are, in fact, the BBEG.

    Let me try another analogy. Let's say you are a teacher. That is your "true form". Summer comes and school is out, so you have no work. You get a temp job working at McDonald's. I come in and see you working. I have truesight. I can see that your real job is as a teacher. But in that moment, you are not a teacher, you are a burger flipper. You are not teaching, you are flipping burgers. Once summer ends, you will cease to be a burger flipper and revert back to being a teacher.
    AIReaserch, these say it all.

    It is also noteworthy that creatures transformed into objects have no recollections of their time spent as objects. That means...they were an object for the spell duration.

    What you can see and perceive (these are different things - I can perceive with other senses, and in DnD with magic also, without "seeing") are only part of spell targeting.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    Truesight enables the character with this ability to perceive that the statue is not an actual true statue but rather in actual fact a creature that is being transformed by an ongoing magical effect into a statue.
    It is, in fact, a statue. Full stop.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    This whole "actual true" thing has got to stop.

    When you are polymorphed into another creature or object, you are an actual true other creature or object. Especially when someone casts true polymorph on you, what with "true" being in the name and all.

    The only differences between you and all the other actual true creatures or objects of the same type are:
    - you stop being an actual true creature or object of that type when the spell ends, reverting to being an actual true yourself
    - a creature with truesight can perceive that you're not normally that creature or object
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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    This is a crazy rabbit hole and it appears to be entirely based on the interpretation of one word "ARE". I realize that none of this is likely to convince the OP.

    What does truesight do?

    The text for the true sight ability which the spell true seeing grants states "perceives the original form". This literally means that the ability just lets the character SEE what they originally were. The use of the word "original" clearly implies that the creature transformed by magic is NOT that form any longer. The Truesight ability does NOT use the phrasing "see things as they ARE" - only the True Seeing spell does.

    The OP is attempting to state that because the true seeing spell uses the wording "see things as they ARE" then whatever they are seeing is STILL in its original form even though it has been transformed. I understand the reasoning, I just disagree with it.

    All true seeing does in both cases is allows the character to "perceive the original form" or even "SEE things as the actually ARE". No where in the description does it grant the ability to interact with whatever is perceived. Just because you can see something doesn't mean you can do anything with it or target it in any way.

    This is reinforced by the text of true polymorph, polymorph or any other spell that actually TRANSFORMS the target into something else rather than something that creates an illusion. For a creature into an object true polymorph states " If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form". The creature is NO longer there. It is transformed. It is not present. The item you are looking at is an object.

    Then the OP comes along and says but true seeing lets me see what the object actually IS ... so I can target it. That is where the logic breaks. In 5e, spells only do what they say they do. True Seeing only lets you SEE or PERCEIVE the original form - it does NOT grant any ability to interact with the original form. The object may actually not be as it appears but it has been TRANSFORMED by True Polymorph so it is no longer there. True Seeing ONLY lets you see what the creature or objects actually ARE - it does NOT allow any interaction with what the creature actually IS.

    So NO, you can't target a creature true polymorphed into an object with eldritch blast since although you can SEE the creature ... the spell gives no ability to interact with what it actually IS ... you can only interact with what it currently IS.

    Rules:

    True Seeing (Spell)
    "This spell gives the willing creature you touch the ability to see things as they actually are. For the duration, the creature has truesight, notices secret doors hidden by magic, and can see into the Ethereal Plane, all out to a range of 120 feet."

    True Sight
    A creature with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceives the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the creature can see into the Ethereal Plane."

    True Polymorph
    "Choose one creature or nonmagical object that you can see within range. You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled.
    ..
    Creature into Object. If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form, as long as the object's size is no larger than the creature's size. The creature's statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form."
    Last edited by Keravath; 2022-01-07 at 09:33 AM.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    The spell is even called "true" polymorph for crying out loud.

    The text of the spell says you turn into an object, period, full stop, do not collect $200. Unless you can explain how that doesnt actually turn it into an object for real, even though it says it does, then true seeing doesnt even come into play here.
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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    For example, let's say the BBEG that is being transformed into a statue by TP is brought into an Antimagic Field. The magical effect stops and reveals the BBEG. If you then kill the BBEG and bring him out of the Antimagic Field an interesting thing happens. The True Polymorph is still there as it hasn't been dispelled. It just ceases to function since the magical effect no longer has all of the components for the "Creature Into Object" transformation. If you were then to Revivify the BBEG the magical effect of the TP would cease being inert and would pop on and function again and transmutate the BBEG back into a statue.

    I think you agree with my discussion of what is going on so far.
    I don't agree. The transformation ends if the target drops to 0 hp or dies, and it doesn't matter what form it is in that moment. If you kill the BBEG, the True Polymorph ends. Even if it's currently supressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    However this is weird because if you create an illusion of a creature using for example Phantasmal Force, is it a real creature that can be targeted by EB?

    All of this nonsense can be avoided by saying that spells that deal damage to creatures can also target objects and are allowed to be directed into empty space as well. You can see that the statue is actually a guy, but you were always allowed to fire EB at it. You are fooled by a phantasmal force but you are still allowed to fire EB at the air.
    Per XGtE, you can cast spells on invalid target, it just have no effect: "A spell specifies what a caster can target with it: any type of creature, a creature of a certain type (humanoid or beast, for instance), an object, an area, the caster, or something else. But what happens if a spell targets something that isn't a valid target? For example, someone might cast charm person on a creature believed to be a humanoid, not knowing that the target is in fact a vampire. If this issue comes up, handle it using the following rule.

    If you cast a spell on someone or something that can't be affected by the spell, nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended. If the spell normally has no effect on a target that succeeds on a saving throw, the invalid target appears to have succeeded on its saving throw, even though it didn't attempt one (giving no hint that the creature is in fact an invalid target). Otherwise, you perceive that the spell did nothing to the target."
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2022-01-07 at 10:04 AM.
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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Truesight enables you to see the original form of something that IS transformed by magic

    By definition a character with Truesight can directly perceive the creature that IS transformed by magical effect into a statue and recognize that they are not dealing with an actual true statue but one that is a derivative of an ongoing magical process that is actually transforming a creature into a statue.

    In this way Truesight reveals the hidden truth of what you see. Whether or not transformational magic intends to hide or disguise it does indeed hide or disguise what is truly there.

    The tense of the ability description is significant.

    By choice of tense, Truesight does not enable you to see the original form of something that WAS transformed by magic.

    If a character with Truesight is looking at a pile of dust that is the product of an instantaneous Disintegration spell you do not see what that pile of dust was before it was disintegrated as that pile of dust is not currently being transformed by an ongoing magical effect.

    Truesight enables you to see through current magical effects to reveal the base form upon which the magical effect is being applied to produce derivatives of that base form.

    Original has more than one meaning. The tense supports one meaning of original over another. Tense defines the context.

    Truesight reveals truths hidden by ongoing magical effects.

    Think of Truesight like Matrix vision. Neo can see past the real to see the really real that is normally hidden. Scrubbed

    Think of Truesight like {Scrubbed} vision.

    Think of Truesight like Angel Vision or Celestial vision or even just Divine vision.

    Angels frequently disguise themselves as humanoids. The hidden truth of the angelic nature of angels disguised as humanoids who intervene to save humanity is revealed by Truesight.
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2022-01-07 at 08:52 PM.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    Truesight enables you to see the original form of something that IS transformed by magic
    You're wrong in two places.

    First, truesight lets you "perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic." This says nothing about seeing. It might be vocal or written or some other sense.

    Second, it only applies to creatures, not things. If a rock was polymorphed into a chair, a creature with truesight would percieve nothing. If a rock was true polymorphed into a creautre, truesight would also show nothing.

    Finally, knowing the source of an object does not change the fact that the object is an object. Whether a statue was carved with hammer and chisel or created with stone shapoe or created with true polymorph doesn't matter - its still a statue, and thus an object, right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    Truesight enables you to see the original form of something that IS transformed by magic

    By definition a character with Truesight can directly perceive the creature that IS transformed by magical effect into a statue and recognize that they are not dealing with an actual true statue but one that is a derivative of an ongoing magical process that is actually transforming a creature into a statue.

    In this way Truesight reveals the hidden truth of what you see. Whether or not transformational magic intends to hide or disguise it does indeed hide or disguise what is truly there.
    Yes, and? I fail to see how this supports your argument. So you can see that the statue is actually the BBEG, what of it? They're still a statue. They're still an object. It's not an illusion, which seems to be how you're treating it.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post

    Second, it only applies to creatures, not things. If a rock was polymorphed into a chair, a creature with truesight would percieve nothing. If a rock was true polymorphed into a creautre, truesight would also show nothing.
    this is..untrue. an a creature that is transformed into a statue is still 'a creature transformed by magic' true seeing doesn't say that it only works when the form transformed into is a creature, only that the original form has to be a creature.

    interestingly, this means that if you true polymorph an object into a creature, by raw true sight wouldn't reveal it. since its not 'a creature transformed by magic' its 'an object transformed by magic'.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by kazaryu View Post
    this is..untrue. an a creature that is transformed into a statue is still 'a creature transformed by magic' true seeing doesn't say that it only works when the form transformed into is a creature, only that the original form has to be a creature.

    interestingly, this means that if you true polymorph an object into a creature, by raw true sight wouldn't reveal it. since its not 'a creature transformed by magic' its 'an object transformed by magic'.
    I think it counts either way. Transforming a rock into a creature is still a creature (its current form) that is transformed by magic (the TP spell).

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by kazaryu View Post
    interestingly, this means that if you true polymorph an object into a creature, by raw true sight wouldn't reveal it. since its not 'a creature transformed by magic' its 'an object transformed by magic'.
    That's... what greenstone just said.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2022-01-08 at 12:19 AM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    If the OP's logic is correct, wouldn't that mean that the BBEG could use powers and attacks against the person using truesight, since truesight would apparently ignore any current form the BBEG is in, by the logic presented by the OP? So everyone else would just see a statue, while the person using truesight gets to go one-on-one with the BBEG.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    {snip}
    By definition a character with Truesight can directly perceive the creature that IS transformed by magical effect into a statue and recognize that they are not dealing with an actual true statue but one that is a derivative of an ongoing magical process that is actually transforming a creature into a statue.
    {snip}
    You're statement needs a rewrite: "By definition a character with Truesight can directly perceive that the statue is transformed by magical effect from a creature," and the rest of your comment is no longer relevant with respect to spell targeting. Roleplaying and strategy, yes -- for example, I may want to attack the statue now, or cast dispel magic on it. But it's a statue and that is what matters for spell targeting. We are all basically saying that it is a statue that is existential, not the creature, because of physical (not illusory) transformation magic. The ability to revert back or change to something else, if available, is part of the magic of true polymorph (or whatever transformation magic), not the statue or the creature it came from.

    If it is not a statue, to build off of Temperjoke's post -- what's it's initiative roll? Oh, wait, it doesn't have one, because it's a statue.

    If you choose to not see that, I won't be able to find a way to convince you otherwise, and vice-versa. Have fun.

    Spoiler: A side question this raises
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    A side question this raises: what happens if an old human (say, 75 years old) true polymorphs into a elf and concentrates on it for an hour? I guess you get a 75 year old elf? (who reverts to human if you cast dispel magic on him) No need for longevity potions...

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    That's... what greenstone just said.
    oh ****...i literally read (or rather misread) that like 4 times...wow. my bad. thanks for pointing that out.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnWildefyr View Post
    A side question this raises: what happens if an old human (say, 75 years old) true polymorphs into a elf and concentrates on it for an hour? I guess you get a 75 year old elf? (who reverts to human if you cast dispel magic on him) No need for longevity potions...
    The only things kept from the original are personality and alignment. And you can transform into any form of the few creatures (mostly dragons) who do have different statblock depending on their age, which suggest you get to pick how old the creature you want to transform into will be. In theory, nothing stops the 75 years old human from transforming into 20-years old version if himself. Or, to make things funnier, into 6-seconds younger version of himself to essentially double his HP and spell slots.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    The only things kept from the original are personality and alignment. And you can transform into any form of the few creatures (mostly dragons) who do have different statblock depending on their age, which suggest you get to pick how old the creature you want to transform into will be. In theory, nothing stops the 75 years old human from transforming into 20-years old version if himself. Or, to make things funnier, into 6-seconds younger version of himself to essentially double his HP and spell slots.
    I dont think you can change a PC into another PC, since they lack Challenge Ratings, and thats what you use to determine whether the new form is too powerful for the target.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2022-01-08 at 11:38 AM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I dont think you can change a PC into another PC, since they lack Challenge Ratings, and thats what you use to determine whether the new form is too powerful for the target.
    NPCs can use TP too. I was thinking more in the terms of a boss battle.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2022-01-08 at 01:17 PM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    I wonder if the OP's issue isn't with conceiving of a purely binary condition here. If we have two adamant statues in the BBEG's lair, each statue must be one of two things:
    A. A statue (object)
    B. The True Polymorphed BBEG (creature)

    If a statue is the True Polymorphed BBEG, by definition it can't be a statue. Conversely, if True Polymorph turns the BBEG into A and not B, how can you get the BBEG back?

    But there is absolutely nothing requiring that these binary conditions be the only possible conditions which apply. We can have an object that was once a creature, and the fact that this object might again become a creature doesn't change the fact that, RIGHT NOW, it is an object under the game rules. So:
    A. A statue (object)
    B. A creature True Polymorphed into a statue (creature transformed into object)
    C. A creature disguised as a statue, like a mimic (creature)

    If the transformation of B were to be removed by any means, the statue stops being a transformed creature because the transformation has ended. But the rules also say that a creature transformed into an object is treated as an object while it is transformed. In fact, we might extend the logic here to declare that a "transformed creature" shares the type of whatever it has been transformed into for the duration of that transformation.

    So being able to perceive that an object is actually a transformed creature doesn't change the current type of that transformed creature, which in this case is "object." Note that this applies in other cases as well. The Hold Person spell only works on a "humanoid," a specific subtype of creature. If you were to True Polymorph a dragon into an orc, you could then cast Hold Person on the orc. If you Polymorph or True Polymorph an orc into a badger, you can't cast Hold Person on the badger. That's because Hold Person will work on a creature that is and always has been a humanoid, or on a transformed creature or object if that creature or object was transformed INTO a humanoid.

    Let's consider one more case: we are presented with two orcs. Two wizards examine them; only one has True Seeing active. The wizard with True Seeing can see that the orc on the left was originally a butterfly, while the orc on the right was originally a book. Both orcs were True Polymorphed into orcs.

    Under the binary, "everything must either be an object or a creature" definition offered by the OP's argument, the wizard without True Seeing running can cast Acid Splash on both orcs. The wizard with True Seeing can only Acid Splash the orc on the left, the butterfly-orc, and not the orc on the right, the book-orc, but she can see the orc on the right is an object.

    Under the more complex system, the orc on the left is a creature transformed into a creature, while the orc on the right is an object transformed into a creature. So both wizards can cast Acid Splash on both orcs, because both orcs currently are "creatures," regardless of what they were prior to the True Polymorph effect.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    NPCs can use TP too. I was thinking more in the terms of a boss battle.
    Let me rephrase. I dont think you can change ANYONE into a PC with true polymorph, because PCs dont have a CR, and the thing you turn into needs one to be a valid option to turn into. You would have to use one of the NPC stat blocks from the back of, say, Volo's guide.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Let me rephrase. I dont think you can change ANYONE into a PC with true polymorph, because PCs dont have a CR, and the thing you turn into needs one to be a valid option to turn into. You would have to use one of the NPC stat blocks from the back of, say, Volo's guide.
    I believe what he meant is: if you have a BBEG with True Polymorph, that's an NPC with a CR, not a PC with a level. And if he casts TP in himself to transform himself into a six seconds younger version of himself, he has now doubled his HPs and spell slots.

    I suppose it works, but the real question is: what would Truesight reveal of this BBEG?

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    AIResearch, it seems like you're overlooking the most important part of your own argument. You say in the original argument that you can't target the True Polymorphed statue with Eldritch Blast or Magic Missile because those spells only target creatures. While I agree with Greywander and everybody else saying that this is just a bad rule and should be houseruled into oblivion, you're making your argument based on the Rules As Written game, which means things don't quite have to make sense.

    So sure, we begin with the baseline that Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast can't target a statue because it's an object. I don't agree, and I wouldn't rule that way in a real game, but that's the assumption I'm making because of the way those spells specifically say creature. However, the exact same thing applies to truesight. Since you took your truesight description as a quote, I'll quote yours if you don't mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by AIResearch View Post
    True Sight
    A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature [italics are Icecaster's] that IS [NOTE PRESENT TENSE] transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.
    Unfortunately, truesight, like Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile, only applies to creatures transformed by magic. Thus, we have to assume, like we did with the spells, that truesight can't apply to objects transformed by magic. This nullifies your point about a creature's "true form" in some of your posts. Nothing about "true form" matters because the statue is an object, not a creature, and you have been very adamant that the tense is crucial to the interpretation of these rules.

    I agree that tense is crucial to this. The BBEG IS an object. As per our assumption about Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile, the statue is being treated as an object for the purposes of targeting. It doesn't matter to this interpretation that the statue WAS a creature, or that its "true form" IS a creature. The RAW ruling remains that those spells can't target the statue because its current form IS an object, and truesight doesn't offer any insight on the nature of an object that is transformed by magic. This means True Sight won't work at all on a BBEG who's been True Polymorphed into any object. If the BBEG were True Polymorphed into a cat, then that's one thing, but at that point you could use True Sight, Eldritch Blast, or Magic Missile on the BBEG regardless of tense and whatnot.

    In my own games, I would rule that Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile could hit a statue and that truesight would reveal the nature of such a statue anyways. Because that's what makes sense. However, like I said before, when we're playing the RAW game, we can't make assumptions based on what makes sense. We make assumptions based on whether something says they function with an object or a creature, and these assumptions strictly rule that truesight cannot reveal information about an object in the exact same way Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile cannot target one.

    However, as a side note: The spell True Seeing does technically say you can see things "as they are," which notably doesn't have any such restriction to creatures. However, since this doesn't apply any specific mechanical benefit other than the effects listed afterwards, the effects of such an ability could only ever be up to subjective DM interpretation, so there's no right or wrong answer in regards to that spell specifically. Maybe a DM would validate your whole argument based on that wording. Maybe that DM decides it changes nothing, and that phrase is just flavor text. Doesn't matter either way since there's no objective correct answer to be had on an online forum, and thus no reason to debate on what answer is correct.

    EDIT for a TL;DR
    The statue/BBEG in question must either be an object or a creature. Potentially both, if you like. No matter what option you choose, if the statue counts as a creature for one effect, then it must count as a creature for all of them. If it counts as an object for one effect, then the same is true. So, if the True Polymorphed BBEG is now a statue that counts as an object and NOT a creature for the purposes of targeting Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile, then it must also NOT be a creature for the purposes of truesight, which only reveals information about a "creature that is transformed by magic." Otherwise, if the statue is being counted as a creature for the purposes of truesight because its "true form" is a creature, then it must also count as a creature for the purposes of targeting Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile in the first place.
    Last edited by Icecaster; 2022-01-08 at 03:03 PM.
    Oh, hi

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    Default Re: With Truesight I can Eldritch Blast a BBEG True Polymorphed into an adamantium st

    Quote Originally Posted by Narsham01 View Post
    Under the binary, "everything must either be an object or a creature" definition offered by the OP's argument, the wizard without True Seeing running can cast Acid Splash on both orcs. The wizard with True Seeing can only Acid Splash the orc on the left, the butterfly-orc, and not the orc on the right, the book-orc, but she can see the orc on the right is an object.
    This is the funniest thing I've read today. Debuffed because of True Sight. That's amazing. I imagine the one wizard happily splashing the 'creature' with Acid Splash, while the one with True Seeing laments his use of a 6th level spell, looking downcast at the other wizard's fun.

    In terms of theory-craft, I give the OP 9/10 stars on the 3.5 theory-crafting scale. It's bizarre enough where 99.99% of people trying to read the rules for the purpose of casual play will reject it outright, as it requires a very specific twisting of the English language, and as evidenced by the fact that this is the first time I've ever seen it brought up. (Even now, I can't recall the logic without a point by point crawl through the OP's post.) But I think I've seen further stretches.
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