OOTS #1251 - The Discussion Thread

[Skull the Troll]

But if the hammer is a sentient, talking hammer and it's edging Bob on as he bashes skulls in, yelling "Oh yeah Bob, get them, kill them all, take their money and buy me some nice metal polish, mwahahaha", then maybe both are evil.

I know this is none of my business, but why don't you just use a different bank? Tons of them out there that aren't crap. Mine has zero fees, it even refunds me out of network ATM charges. My Credit card is completely separated from my bank, its with Chase who runs the Amazon credit card services. No annual fees and I get 1.5 - 5% back on Amazon credit. Seems like it should be easy to find a better option.

[Ionathus]

It's like college debt, they offer you cheap loans when you haven't had to pay for anything yet and it makes it all seem so easy.

"Come on, son, do the right thing. Sign here and you'll be an English Major."

The whole enterprise is based on mutual benefit and informed consent.

Banking is a business that requires profit to exist. That profit has to come from somewhere. Even if the bank was a not-for-profit charity it would require a certain percentage of income to meet its overhead costs.

Credit is a subset of banking. It operates by rules. Learning the rules allows a user of credht services to make use of those services for his own benefit.

It is not evil. There are no tricks and the rules only change with prior announcement. But it is important to exercise informed judgement before use.

Like fire, careful use for a purpose is beneficial. Careless abuse can be disasterous. That does not make fire evil.

Eh, while I don't think the concept of credit cards is evil, there is absolutely a predatory undercurrent to the entire industry. Cards are easy to sign up for and easy to misuse, and without a financial education about the dangers it can be very easy to get yourself in much deeper trouble than with a debit card. Much like payday loans or casinos, the initial concept isn't inherently bad but it is more vulnerable to exploitation, and should absolutely be standard material in late high school.

edit:

Nah, the bank is forcing me to get a credit card from them and the credit card company gladly collects these forced customers while giving us nothing in return. They're necessary accomplices. They're only saving me from something that wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for them. It's racketeering at best.

So yes, I'd call that evil.

I don't know the ins and outs of your financial system, but it's possible this is a bureacracy/liability thing.

In my current apartment, there's only 1 option for electricity and 2 options for internet. Neither of the internet providers are preferable, but there's no infrastructure (yet) for me to use a provider I'd prefer. The modern world is so complicated and interconnected that you're always going to get some add-ons or package deals. On its own, that's not a good fact or a bad fact: it's a neutral reality of interacting with so many institutions on a daily basis.

I don't see anything about this setup that you've described that makes the bank/credit card combo sound like anything more than one of these minor hassles. Maybe there's more going on behind the scenes I don't know about.

[Peelee]

Eh, while I don't think the concept of credit cards is evil, there is absolutely a predatory undercurrent to the entire industry.

Now this I agree with 100%. There's a reason South Dakota is home to a huge amount of credit card companies.

[Fyraltari]

while I don't think the concept of credit cards is evil, there is absolutely a predatory undercurrent to the entire industry.

Sounds about right.

[KorvinStarmast]

The whole enterprise is based on mutual benefit and informed consent.

Banking is a business that requires profit to exist. That profit has to come from somewhere. Even if the bank was a not-for-profit charity it would require a certain percentage of income to meet its overhead costs.

Credit is a subset of banking. It operates by rules. Learning the rules allows a user of credht services to make use of those services for his own benefit.

It is not evil. There are no tricks and the rules only change with prior announcement. But it is important to exercise informed judgement before use.

Like fire, careful use for a purpose is beneficial. Careless abuse can be disasterous. That does not make fire evil.

This is so very correct.

[danielxcutter]

Corporations inherently exist to generate profit, though. With smaller groups or isolated cases there may be instances of prioritizing other values, but often with big companies if screwing you over makes a cent more than otherwise they'll do it in a heartbeat.

[hungrycrow]

Corporations inherently exist to generate profit, though. With smaller groups or isolated cases there may be instances of prioritizing other values, but often with big companies if screwing you over makes a cent more than otherwise they'll do it in a heartbeat.

Part of them being amoral profit seekers is that they also don't want to screw you over if it doesn't make them more money. Banks don't want people to borrow way too much money and then go bankrupt; they want people to be able to repay their loans and be satisfied enough with the process to borrow more money later.

[danielxcutter]

That could happen when the market was smaller and there were fewer customers. Now... not really. After a point, profit alone doesn't really do much, it has to be something that you have and as many others don't.

[RMS Oceanic]

The big question is whether Serini will say "...which was the style at the time." next comic.

[hungrycrow]

That could happen when the market was smaller and there were fewer customers. Now... not really. After a point, profit alone doesn't really do much, it has to be something that you have and as many others don't.

I don't think markets are zero sum like this no matter what size. And even if they were, the banks that tried this would just be making themselves the losers in the equation along with their customers, while everyone else "gains".

Sometimes banks do give out predatory loans, but it's not that they want to see people go bankrupt, it's that they're hoping the high interest rates on loans that do get paid back cover for the ones that don't.

[danielxcutter]

I... disagree, but I think that arguing about this properly would result in someone breaking the forum rules one way or another so pursuing it doesn't seem like a good idea.

[brian 333]

Predatory lending does happen. The lender sells a product knowing it is beyond the means of the buyer, then sells the note to a larger institution knowing that it will eventually default. The hope there is that when the note gets sold it does not default until some other lender holds it.

This is where informed consent comes in. If you, as a borrower, can identify your actual need and match that to your ability to repay what you borrow, the lender cannot take advantage of you.

A credit card is nothing more than a serial loan that must be paid back. If you max out a card because you can then get trapped in the 21% interest/minimum payment trap, you have exercised uninformed consent.

Like any other financial arrangement, you have to know what you are getting into. I have never been denied credht because I asked to read the contract before signing.

Capital comes in many forms. Money is how you keep score. My knowledge and work ethic is my capital and the credit company is borrowing it from me. It is important that I get the best deal I can when I lend it. Does that make me evil?

How is that different from what the lenders do? Oh, I know: you can always say no and go to their competitor.

Learn how credit works and you are in charge.

[Quizatzhaderac]

How'd we get to credit cards? Is Razor a loan shark?

[Emanick]

I'm fairly sure the credit card agency is the hammer in that metaphor, not the credit card itself.

The credit card agency probably isn't any more involved than the credit card itself, unless there's a specific partnership set up.

Either way, it doesn't really seem like a representative situation. I would be giving this advice:

I know this is none of my business, but why don't you just use a different bank? Tons of them out there that aren't crap. Mine has zero fees, it even refunds me out of network ATM charges. My Credit card is completely separated from my bank, its with Chase who runs the Amazon credit card services. No annual fees and I get 1.5 - 5% back on Amazon credit. Seems like it should be easy to find a better option.

if I didn't suspect you lived in a country where that might not be possible.

[PontificatusRex]

Corporations inherently exist to generate profit, though. With smaller groups or isolated cases there may be instances of prioritizing other values, but often with big companies if screwing you over makes a cent more than otherwise they'll do it in a heartbeat.

That's actually a fairly modern idea. Obviously people have always tried to make money with their businesses, often putting profit over ethical behavior, but for a long time there was at least the ideal that a corporation existed for the public good. The historian Studs Terkel talks about this a lot in his work - "Hey, we need a bridge here, let's form a corporation to get it built" kind of thing. Henry Ford talked a lot about how his ambition was to make cars, not profits, though of course by doing so he made a ton of profits.

I think there was a really big change for the worse when the prevalent economic view changed from "A business exists to provide X good and/or service, thereby making profits" to "A business exists to make as much profit as possible, by whatever means they see fit". Again, not trying to whitewash the often horrible things done in the name of Business over the centuries.

On a completely different note, "Getting your beak wet" does bring to mind the phrase "Dipping your wick", which definitely IS a euphemism of the bawdy variety.

[danielxcutter]

The credit card agency probably isn't any more involved than the credit card itself, unless there's a specific partnership set up.

I honestly don't know about the situation to comment about that, but I was just nitpicking that in the specific metaphor they were making, the hammer was a metaphor for the company and not the card itself. Just that, nothing else.

That's actually a fairly modern idea. Obviously people have always tried to make money with their businesses, often putting profit over ethical behavior, but for a long time there was at least the ideal that a corporation existed for the public good. The historian Studs Terkel talks about this a lot in his work - "Hey, we need a bridge here, let's form a corporation to get it built" kind of thing. Henry Ford talked a lot about how his ambition was to make cars, not profits, though of course by doing so he made a ton of profits.

I think there was a really big change for the worse when the prevalent economic view changed from "A business exists to provide X good and/or service, thereby making profits" to "A business exists to make as much profit as possible, by whatever means they see fit". Again, not trying to whitewash the often horrible things done in the name of Business over the centuries.

I'm also not sure that "profit" is the only factor(or if it is, it would be better called "power" more likely and it's not just corporations), but otherwise yeah.

[hroþila]

It's not egging on Bob, though. Bob has all the power in this scenario.

Your bank sounds like crap. That's the banks fault, not the credit card's fault. And frankly, that the bank is the one pushing the card makes it even more mystifying that you can't see any charges in real-time, along with the other issues you have with it.

Bob is bludgeoning you and you're just saying "I take issue with that hammer", from everything I can tell.

The way I see it, Bob and MC Hammer are bludgeoning me, I'm yelling that Bob and MC Hammer are bludgeoning me, and as I lie there dying you're saying that only Bob is to blame while MC Hammer merrily does the U Can't Touch This Dance right in my face to celebrate my demise.

The whole enterprise is based on mutual benefit and informed consent.

Yeah no. We Live in a Society and I can't just opt out of the bank system even though they're all inherently evil in my eyes. I still need a bank account to operate professionally, and I still need a credit card to avoid some totally unfair bank fees which they want to charge me for the honour of them borrowing my money.

I know this is none of my business, but why don't you just use a different bank? Tons of them out there that aren't crap. Mine has zero fees, it even refunds me out of network ATM charges. My Credit card is completely separated from my bank, its with Chase who runs the Amazon credit card services. No annual fees and I get 1.5 - 5% back on Amazon credit. Seems like it should be easy to find a better option.

Because changing banks would be too much of a hassle for no real benefit, as the other options available to me also operate along very similar if not identical lines. Also I was with a different bank until a few months ago and they were bought by some other bank and it made no difference because banks are inherently evil and unfair.
{Scrubbed}

[Peelee]

The way I see it, Bob and MC Hammer are bludgeoning me, I'm yelling that Bob and MC Hammer are bludgeoning me, and as I lie there dying you're saying that only Bob is to blame while MC Hammer merrily does the U Can't Touch This Dance right in my face to celebrate my demise.

Dude, the way you've presented it, the bank is the one who made you get the credit card. There is no second entity here, there is just the bank. There is only Bob. All i have to go on is what you've described, and you've described being angry at the hammer and ignoring the person swinging it.

[hroþila]

I don't think the bank just happened to choose this one card company without reaching an agreement with them, and at any rate the credit card company could be offering me some sort of benefit as a customer the way they do with American customers, but that's not happening either. And I complained about both of them in like my second post, calling them accomplices and what not. I did not ignore the bank at all. I honestly don't see what the issue here is, you guys will get oddly argumentative about everything sometimes.

[KorvinStarmast]

How'd we get to credit cards? Is Razor a loan shark?

Dude, the way you've presented it, the bank is the one who made you get the credit card. There is no second entity here, there is just the bank. There is only Bob. All i have to go on is what you've described, and you've described being angry at the hammer and ignoring the person swinging it.

The important thing about banks is that unless you have a certain amount of money already, they have no incentive to chase your business. Once you reach a certain level, you have a little bit of leverage in exercising the choice of which bank/credit union you'll bring your business to.

Until you get to that level, the credit card companies and things like auto loans (and the loan sharks) are some of the few vehicles one has to exercise credit and that credit costs more since you don't have that much money ... it's a bit of a vicious cycle until you reach a different level of liquidity.

As to banks/lenders selling notes. I got rather upset when the mortgage on my first town house (back in the 80's) got sold from my original lender to someone else. Suddenly these strangers whom I did not make the deal with are asking me to pay them. Took me a while to learn what was going on and what I could do about it (at the time, bloody fork all).

My next choice of lender was the result of a careful vetting process when, years later, I bought a house. I am still with that lender. brian 333's point about educating one's self vis a vis credit is spot on.

[Peelee]

The important thing about banks is that unless you have a certain amount of money already, they have no incentive to chase your business. Once you reach a certain level, you have a little bit of leverage in exercising the choice of which bank/credit union you'll bring your business to.

Until you get to that level, the credit card companies and things like auto loans (and the loan sharks) are some of the few vehicles one has to exercise credit and that credit costs more since you don't have that much money ... it's a bit of a vicious cycle until you reach a different level of liquidity.

Again, credit cards don't cost anything if you choose one with no annual fee and pay on time.

[KorvinStarmast]

Again, credit cards don't cost anything if you choose one with no annual fee and pay on time.

Correct, never said otherwise. Won't comment further.

[Jason]

"Horn knuckled" and "Swizzle brain" I think I get. And "Leather toed" I get - Haylee is wearing boots and halfling don't wear boots. But "hill dingus"? Is that just another way of saying "you're much taller than I am"?

[Fyraltari]

Henry Ford talked a lot about how his ambition was to make cars, not profits, though of course by doing so he made a ton of profits.

Not that cars are a parricularly good.

On a completely different note, "Getting your beak wet" does bring to mind the phrase "Dipping your wick", which definitely IS a euphemism of the bawdy variety.

What's a wick?

[Metastachydium]

Well, this escalated quite gorgeously!

You don't pay a dime in interest if you pay it off every month, which can be set to automatically go through. I don't have automatic payments because I like to monitor my statements, so I have them notify me seven days before payment is due.

If that's your only objection, then the only way to hit it is to be bad with your money, which you can do just as much with a debit card.

No, it is not. Like I implied, I prefer not to owe money, however temporarily, and especially not to banks, entities with which I prefer to only deal when I absolutely cannot avoid it.
Further, I'm allergic to virtual money. It's creepy. A system under which the bank draws automated payments of virtual money from my account that I owe them for using their virtual money rather than mine is doubly so, at least for me. Like I said, I use cash, period. At least those physical tokens pretend to be real.
Moreover, meaning no offense, I have no intention, whatsoever, to set foot on US soil in the foreseeable future, let alone try and rent cars (I prefer to walk anyway) or take out loans, and as other people have pointed out, those benefits you people keep droning about (like bees (I like bees)) are often enough nonexistent or just plain not worth it in other parts of the world.
(And, as a parenthetical remark, I might add that if one takes the necessary precautions and one isn't "economically illiterate", using debit cards is not nearly as risky as some of you folks paint it to be.)

How'd we get to credit cards? Is Razor a loan shark?

Blame Brian for being grumpy about young folks and a certain happy little blue flower for bringing up debit cards.

"Horn knuckled" and "Swizzle brain" I think I get. And "Leather toed" I get - Haylee is wearing boots and halfling don't wear boots. But "hill dingus"? Is that just another way of saying "you're much taller than I am"?

I think she might simply be calling them rednecks.

What's a wick?

The thing in the middle of a candle that one sets fire to;
or
some dude called John that kills people.

[Thermophille]

The thing in the middle of a candle that one sets fire to;
or
some dude called John that kills people.

You forgot the third definition.

verb
absorb or draw off (liquid) by capillary action.

[Peelee]

Correct, never said otherwise. Won't comment further.

You did:

credit costs more

It does not if you pay it off.

I prefer not to owe money, however temporarily, and especially not to banks, entities with which I prefer to only deal when I absolutely cannot avoid it.

I agree, but I also accept that the world I live in is hostile to such behavior. As such, I see it as a perpetual amount of interest-free loans which have an added benefit of making car dealers and other financers significantly less hostile towards me, as well as giving me discounts on everything I purchase.

Further, I'm allergic to virtual money. It's creepy.

Second verse, same as the first.

[Metastachydium]

You forgot the third definition.

verb
absorb or draw off (liquid) by capillary action.

Damn. How could I forget about absorption through capillary action! Thank you, good man!

I agree, but I also accept that the world I live in is hostile to such behavior. As such, I see it as a perpetual amount of interest-free loans which have an added benefit of making car dealers and other financers significantly less hostile towards me

Okay, fair. But again, permit me to continue praising my luck that pleasing US car dealers and financers are not something I need to worry about.

[Peelee]

Okay, fair. But again, permit me to continue praising my luck that pleasing US car dealers and financers are not something I need to worry about.

Oh, I don't care about pleasing them at all. But when I am forced to deal with them, then having them be less hostile towards me is ideal.

Fortunately, all of my current debt is through continual interest-free loans that always totals less than what is it in my bank account.

[KorvinStarmast]

You did:

*facepalm*
Credit rates vary by card.
No single card costs you anything if you always pay it off, but that's not the problem under discussion. Red herring.

I will suggest that you consider reading the fine print of the credit card offers that come in the mail - it seems to be the evergreen feature of the US Mail system that those just won't stop showing up in the mail box - and compare them to credit cards that you yourself actually use. And while you are at it, take a look at the numbers on the offers they send to your kids when they are college aged. I bothered to do that for about a decade and had a lot of discussions with my kids about how to use, or not use, credit as they were entering that phase of their lives.
Wonder of wonders, those 'here, start a credit card!' offers have, if you bother to read the info (as brian 333 has suggested to all comers in this conversation) in those offers are substantially higher than the cards I have carried for years. Which is rather the point I was making about the liquidity level.

The same thing is true for car loans and mortgage rates.