OOTS #1251 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Two things she could have done differently:

Innumerable things she could have done differently. Again, at some point you have to accept that enough was enough. She had an active, incredibly high level bodyguard on it at all times, and also had security through obscurity, and also scrambled the information itself.

If she'd left it in her cave and it was found, we'd be hearing "well why didn't she have it in her person? Then it would have dynamic protection instead of relying on passive traps which could be bypassed". It's a constantly shifting target because it is different for any given person. There's no reason to try to please everyone, so having it be "good enough" looks like it's the aim here. And u, for one, thing it achieved that aim.

[hungrycrow]

Innumerable things she could have done differently. Again, at some point you have to accept that enough was enough. She had an active, incredibly high level bodyguard on it at all times, and also had security through obscurity, and also scrambled the information itself.

If she'd left it in her cave and it was found, we'd be hearing "well why didn't she have it in her person? Then it would have dynamic protection instead of relying on passive traps which could be bypassed". It's a constantly shifting target because it is different for any given person. There's no reason to try to please everyone, so having it be "good enough" looks like it's the aim here. And u, for one, thing it achieved that aim.

If she had defended the diary differently, we wouldn't be hearing about it because it wouldn't have become a problem. None of the other Scribblers left behind physical clues to the other gates, in fact it was a plot point how well the Sapphire Guard managed to not leave exploitable clues behind. Keeping a diary wasn't some important but poorly thought out part of her defense, it was a wholly unnecessary risk.

It's fine for characters to have flaws and make stupid decisions, because they're people and not hyperoptimized pieces controlled by detached players. It's also fine for us readers to point out that those decisions are stupid.

[Peelee]

If she had defended the diary differently, we wouldn't be hearing about it because it wouldn't have become a problem.

Of course we would, because regardless of anything, that's how Xykon knows where all the Gates are.it could have been locked up in magical Fort Knox in a Magnificent Mansion on the Astral Plane with a legion of Solars guarding it and Xykon would somehow have gotten it, because that's how the plot was written.

This isn't a real situation where Xykon only got it because her defenses weren't good enough and if the author had put better ones in then he would have needed to find a different way for Xykon to get it. Xykon gets the diary from Serini comes first. The defenses she had in place come later, because they are only important as set dressing.

Frankly, it boggles my mind to think that she could have kept it if only the author had given her better countermeasures.

[hungrycrow]

Of course we would, because regardless of anything, that's how Xykon knows where all the Gates are.it could have been locked up in magical Fort Knox in a Magnificent Mansion on the Astral Plane with a legion of Solars guarding it and Xykon would somehow have gotten it, because that's how the plot was written.

This isn't a real situation where Xykon only got it because her defenses weren't good enough and if the author had put better ones in then he would have needed to find a different way for Xykon to get it. Xykon gets the diary from Serini comes first. The defenses she had in place come later, because they are only important as set dressing.

Frankly, it boggles my mind to think that she could have kept it if only the author had given her better countermeasures.

Xykon could have gotten the locations without going through Serini. He was already able to find Serini just by knowing Lirian had comrades(also a huge mistake on Lirian's part). If Serini had been holed up in her fortress, Xykon would have tracked one of them down anyways. Most likely Soon's gate, since Soon was a prominent figure at a big city.

But that's the main problem with Serini's diary. The coordinates were encrypted and probably could only be cracked by someone like Xykon who had been to another gate. But the diary also had the names and descriptions of the Scribblers along with a childish but detailed account of their adventures and the importance of the Gates. That by itself would be more than enough to kick off a world conquest plan if the wrong person had gotten a hold of it. And since Serini was still adventuring, her dying and leaving the diary to be found by some megalomaniacal villain or reckless adventurer was a super likely possibility.

[Peelee]

Xykon could have gotten the locations without going through Serini.

At which point I would be arguing against how those protections weren't good enough. You'll forgive me if I don't bother to engage with this.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's fine for characters to have flaws and make stupid decisions, because they're people and not hyperoptimized pieces controlled by detached players. It's also fine for us readers to point out that those decisions are stupid.

Yes and yes. But I will point out that sometimes, finding that crucial, awesome bit of actionable intel does not always turn into a victory.

Spoiler: Historical Exmaple

Show

The example that I will use is a classic: the fortuitous discovery of General Lee's planned movements by Union agents who got that information to General McClellan. He began to move towards Lee's forces with the intention of ending the war by catching Lee and forcing him to battle on terrain not of his own choosing.

The Result was the battle of Antietam/Sharpsburg, and the lethargic pursuit thereafter which was both an opportunity missed, and a result that led to McClellan's relief.

[Liquor Box]

I agree with point number 1 completely, but not so much number 3. In either case, she knows they are writing with others, and she is clearly lumping them in together—"you fools" is almost certainly referring to the paladins and the Order together, not just the two people on front of her.

Even if you look at it from that perspective, she was wrong to say that they'd had four shots, because there's no way the paladins (or any allies of theirs) could have said to have been involved with Lirian's gate. If she knew what the paladins know, she'd know that.

[Peelee]

Even if you look at it from that perspective, she was wrong to say that they'd had four shots, because there's no way the paladins (or any allies of theirs) could have said to have been involved with Lirian's gate. If she knew what the paladins know, she'd know that.

That's an excellent point.

[Liquor Box]

I think Xykon ambushed Serini after the destruction of Lirian's Gate. Unless by herself you mean Lirian?

I think tthere's an inconsistency in the timeline around this.

The onilne comic 196 says that Xykon found the diary and then used it to find the first two gates (Dorukon's and Lirians) - so he got it before Lirian's gate then used it find Lirian's gate. The Start of Darkness book suggests instead that Xykon found Lirian's gate some other way, then got the diary after that to find the other gates.

So there's no real right answer to that question.

Some things she could have done differently: don't write down the locations. Basic opsec, don't put information that absolutely cannot be stolen in a physical form that can be stolen. Alternatively if she can't remember all five coordinates, just remember one and leave the rest back at her secret base. Still bad, but if her base gets breached the locations of the other gates probably don't matter anyways. Also it would be easier to booby trap the diary if it was in a dungeon rather than her pocket. Alternatively alternatively, don't bother keeping track of any of the other coordinates since she isn't supposed to go to any of those locations anyway.

Xykon definitely would have tracked down another gate without Serini's diary, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a terrible idea. Serini was an old rogue still going on dangerous adventures, eventually she would have died with the diary sitting in her pocket, and that would guarantee that a bunch of important information on the gates would fall into the wrong hands.

I agree - the very simple thing serini could, and should, have done was not write down. As you say, it doesn't seem any of the other Scribblers did.

The plot required the coordinates to be found by Xykon, and the Giant chose to facilitate that by having one of the Scribble do something silly. But the fact that it was plot necessary silliness doesn't make it any less silly.

Xykon probably could have found out by other ways - perhaps through torture. But if he had, I don't think anyone would be blaming the person who was tortured. People are assessing Serini's recording of the gates' locations on the face of her actions.

[Peelee]

I think tthere's an inconsistency in the timeline around this.

The onilne comic 196 says that Xykon found the diary and then used it to find the first two gates (Dorukon's and Lirians) - so he got it before Lirian's gate then used it find Lirian's gate. The Start of Darkness book suggests instead that Xykon found Lirian's gate some other way, then got the diary after that to find the other gates.

So there's no real right answer to that question.

Actually, he doesn't say he found Lirian's Gate with the diary. He says he deciphered the location of the first two Gates. Deciphering Lirian's Gate is easier when you actually know the location already, and from there he can decipher the others easier. So, with Start of Darkness's information (which does not suggest anything but rather very directly tells us), it's fairly clear that he deciphered the code with Lirian's Gate, and then used that cipher to reveal Dorukan's Gate next.

[Liquor Box]

Actually, he doesn't say he found Lirian's Gate with the diary. He says he deciphered the location of the first two Gates. Deciphering Lirian's Gate is easier when you actually know the location already, and from there he can decipher the others easier. So, with Start of Darkness's information (which does not suggest anything but rather very directly tells us), it's fairly clear that he deciphered the code with Lirian's Gate, and then used that cipher to reveal Dorukan's Gate next.

Ah,you might be right. That's a good explanation.

[hungrycrow]

I think tthere's an inconsistency in the timeline around this.

The onilne comic 196 says that Xykon found the diary and then used it to find the first two gates (Dorukon's and Lirians) - so he got it before Lirian's gate then used it find Lirian's gate. The Start of Darkness book suggests instead that Xykon found Lirian's gate some other way, then got the diary after that to find the other gates.

So there's no real right answer to that question.

We've discussed this before, and I think the consensus was that by "deciphered the locations of two of the gates" Xykon meant that he figured out how the code referred to Lirian's Gate which he already knew, and then used that to decode the location for Dorukan's gate. Not that he got both locations from the diary.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Liquor Box]

We've discussed this before, and I think the consensus was that by "deciphered the locations of two of the gates" Xykon meant that he figured out how the code referred to Lirian's Gate which he already knew, and then used that to decode the location for Dorukan's gate. Not that he got both locations from the diary.

Edit: Ninja'd

Yeah, I must have missed that discussion, or at least it's conclusion. Anyway, it makes sense.

[Vikenlugaid]

Well, fire damages humans, and we're 70% water, so clearly being made of water doesn't seem to grant immunity to fire.

Well, and poison damage organic things, bones are organic and Xykon is 100% bones.

2. Disagree, I think it was only one of several possible scenarios

3. It is no way implied that if Xykon is still alive when a gate is destroyed it is because he has won. That has actually happened in zero cases (although it was almost the case at Soon's gate). Nothing Serini knows would suggest that Xykon has won every time a gate is destroyed.

There are lots of alternatives. The most obvious being that the gate is destroyed in the conflict, like happened with Lirian's gate. We know that Serini thinks this is a possibility because she explicitly gives it as her reason for not wanting anyone to fight Xykon.

4. We have no indication that Serini even knows the Saphire Guard exists.
If she did know it would be just as logical for them to be trying to stop Xykon from gaining the city than waiting in the throne room (like the Order, who were also there to protect the gate, were doing).
She does know O_Chul there, but as far as we know she doesn't know he was part of a Saphire Guard. Even if she did O-Chul might have chased Xykon into the throne room after seeing him evade the defence of the city.

Like with most of the other logic you suggest is obvious, the conclusions are possible, but not the only conclusions or even the most likely.

5. They need to be able to trust her to not act irrationally again and attack them.Serini and the order both know the other want to protect the gate, Serini is just suspicious that motive comes second to stopping Xykon from getting it. The Order should now be suspicious that Serini would look to sabotage them to avoid a conflict with Xykon because of her terror.

They'd have a better chance with her help for sure. But at the moment, that help is not forthcoming. They are better off without her help than with her attacking them and kidnapping their allies. No help is better than her erratic behaviour.

6. Serini might know. If she has some account of what happened at the gates (as she seems to at Soon's) she would know that he defeated Lirian (she does know that), lost to the Order, was on the cusp of defeating the Saphire Guard but ultimately lost, and wasn't even close to the Girard's gate at the time of its destruction.

She might not know though. And if she doens't know who won at each of the battle of the gates, there is no good reaosn for her to assume it was Xykon. Or even that a battle happened.

7. If that happens. If the Order tries to sway her to their way of thinking at all, I think it is more likely to happen with those currently present in her hidey hole. My money is on Belkar, who is pretty good at pointing out people foibles.

8. We've been over this. The only reason you've given for her to think Xykon won is that the gate was ultimately destroyed. There are lots of reasons that might have happened other than Xykon winning - Serini mentions it getting destroyed in the conflict herself. Given that you logic doesn't follow, it is no longer credible to assume she's under the impression that Xykon won all those times.

As such the information we have is that she is basing her impression that he's unbeatable on him beating her, Dorukon and Lirian. Because, you know.... that exactly what she said.

9.No worries, someone else found it for me.

2- Ok, then name one, one that Serini could know.

3- Again, without knowing the details, that is the simplest conclusion. The alternatives are too elaborate. Ockham's razor. Perfectly rational.
If someone is always surviving, and the others not (shapphire guard, girards clan, dorukan, lirian...) the logic conclusion is that the one who survived won those fights.

4- Again, too elaborate alternatives. Why go to that conclusion when the simplest one us "Xykon went to the gate, Soon's paladins where defending it, Xykon beated them. The posibility of a defenseless Soon's gate? For Serini who knew Soon and his trusting on paladins over anything else to defend a gate? Weird. Of course she will think Soon's gate was protected with a lot of paladins.

5- Serini didn't know the order, can't know if they really want to protect the gate.
And of course if tgey don't change her mind they can't count with her help, that's obvious.

6- She know fore sure Xykon beated Lirian and Dorukan. The other ones are logic asumptions based in Xykon still standing after those gates going krakakoom.
Ok, if you want you can think those aren't the only altertanives that someone could think... But we are not discussing that, we are discussing if those are rational conclusions, which they totally are, even if there are others. A rational conclusion is one based on rational thinking, you don't need to have the one and only posible conclusion to be rational, if that worked that way there wouldn't be rational thoughts in the world, cause is really difficult to find a situation with only one posible conclusion, even scientific principles can be proved wrong with new discoverys, and that doesn't make them less rational.

7- well, it can be. But anyway at some point I am sure that Roy and Durkon will talk to her about "monster's equal rights" at some point.

8- Again, simplest alternative is to think that Xykon either won or someone knew they couldn't beat him and destroyed the gate to deny his prize, which is exactly what happened in the last two gates by the way. Are there other alternatives? Yes, does that make that conclusion not rational? Not at all.

And by curiosity, if the gate is destroyed in the conflict, but Xykon is still standing and the gate defenders are dead, how can that be Xykon losing the fight? Maybe the fight didn't happen, ok, I can buy that. But Xykon losing the fight, the gate being destroyed, and then Xykon surviving, is far too unlikely for anyone to think about it, even Roy agree with this.

The thing us, she is basing the "Xykon is ubeatable" thing in that she hasn't, and none has given her, any proove of Xykon ever losing a fight. She knows that all the old gate defenders are dead, and that all the new ones, at the very least, haven't stopped him at all. With those facts, saying that he is unbeatable could be debatable, of course, but is still perfectly rational thinking.

[Liquor Box]

Well, and poison damage organic things, bones are organic and Xykon is 100% bones.


2- Ok, then name one, one that Serini could know.

3- Again, without knowing the details, that is the simplest conclusion. The alternatives are too elaborate. Ockham's razor. Perfectly rational.
If someone is always surviving, and the others not (shapphire guard, girards clan, dorukan, lirian...) the logic conclusion is that the one who survived won those fights.

4- Again, too elaborate alternatives. Why go to that conclusion when the simplest one us "Xykon went to the gate, Soon's paladins where defending it, Xykon beated them. The posibility of a defenseless Soon's gate? For Serini who knew Soon and his trusting on paladins over anything else to defend a gate? Weird. Of course she will think Soon's gate was protected with a lot of paladins.

6- She know fore sure Xykon beated Lirian and Dorukan. The other ones are logic asumptions based in Xykon still standing after those gates going krakakoom.
Ok, if you want you can think those aren't the only altertanives that someone could think... But we are not discussing that, we are discussing if those are rational conclusions, which they totally are, even if there are others. A rational conclusion is one based on rational thinking, you don't need to have the one and only posible conclusion to be rational, if that worked that way there wouldn't be rational thoughts in the world, cause is really difficult to find a situation with only one posible conclusion, even scientific principles can be proved wrong with new discoverys, and that doesn't make them less rational.

8- Again, simplest alternative is to think that Xykon either won or someone knew they couldn't beat him and destroyed the gate to deny his prize, which is exactly what happened in the last two gates by the way. Are there other alternatives? Yes, does that make that conclusion not rational? Not at all.

This is all essentially one point. The crux of your argument, as I understand it, is that the only rational thing for Serini to conclude is that every time a gate was destroyed, Xykon had defeated some formidable foe. You think that's true even if Serini knows nothing else except that a gate was destroyed, not even that Xykon was even present.

I don't agree. I am not just saying that there are other possibilities. I am saying that it is not rational to assume Xykon defeated a foe is the likely cause of a gate being destroyed in the absence of other information.

I have pointed out lots of flaws in your logic. But i will repeat the one I've mentioned a few times now:
The gates might have been destroyed in the conflict - as in accidently when people where throwing weapons and spells around. That is no less simple than someone destroying the gate after losing to Xykon. There are lots of other possibilities, but let's stick to the one to avoid tangents.

Not only is this a pretty likely possibility, but Sereni actually mentions it as being what she is concerned about. So we know she doesn't think Xykon winning and someone destroying the gate to keep it from him is the only rational possibility.

5- Serini didn't know the order, can't know if they really want to protect the gate.
And of course if tgey don't change her mind they can't count with her help, that's obvious.

I'm not sure what your point is here anymore. Serini will probably come to some sort of realisation, although I'm not sure that will involve persuasion. Afterward she may be able to persuade the Order that she can be trusted to not be chained up.

7- well, it can be. But anyway at some point I am sure that Roy and Durkon will talk to her about "monster's equal rights" at some point.

That may possibly happen, but it may not. I don't see how monster rights has anything to do with their urgent goal of defending the gate.

And by curiosity, if the gate is destroyed in the conflict, but Xykon is still standing and the gate defenders are dead, how can that be Xykon losing the fight? Maybe the fight didn't happen, ok, I can buy that. But Xykon losing the fight, the gate being destroyed, and then Xykon surviving, is far too unlikely for anyone to think about it, even Roy agree with this.

The thing us, she is basing the "Xykon is ubeatable" thing in that she hasn't, and none has given her, any proove of Xykon ever losing a fight. She knows that all the old gate defenders are dead, and that all the new ones, at the very least, haven't stopped him at all. With those facts, saying that he is unbeatable could be debatable, of course, but is still perfectly rational thinking.

I don't think I ever claimed that she would think Xykon lost any of those times. She might know he lost to the Order at Dorukon's gate and she might know he lost at Soon's Gate, but she might not. So you might be right that she doesn't know of any times Xykon lost. But she doesn't know of any times the Order lost either. Not having proof that someone has lost a fight doesn't make them unbeatable.

Again, we don't need to guess at what Serini might be thinking when she says Xykon is unbeatable. She tells us -it's because he beat her and her two friends. And winning three fights doesn't make him unbeatable. If you ad the fact that the people he beat were powerful, that means he's powerful himself, but not unbeatable.

[brian 333]

I notice that while playing 'what if' with Serini's diary there is a near universal agreement that the diary should never have contained the coordinates of the gates.

Sure, Xykon used the diary, but he didn't need it. He has access to powerful divinition magic and he has a cleric with powerful divinition magic whose whole purpose is to find and manipulate a gate. He would have found a gate somehow, regardless of the diary, and one might even argue that deciphering the diary wasted time he would not have needed had he simply had Redcloak ask The Dark One.

But nobody has flipped this pancake to see the other side:

What if TE had gotten the coordinates of all the gates then trapped The Oracle in a soul gem? The diary would have been really useful to an intrepid band of adventurers recruited by Serini.

[danielxcutter]

The Gates are something that all three pantheons are keeping a blackout on; if Eugene couldn't use divinations on Hel's forces even with the scrying pool, how would Redcloak on his own learn about the Gates with only the spells from TDO? And we know the Oracle's intentionally been avoiding Xykon.

[Metastachydium]

I notice that while playing 'what if' with Serini's diary there is a near universal agreement that the diary should never have contained the coordinates of the gates.

Sure, Xykon used the diary, but he didn't need it. He has access to powerful divinition magic and he has a cleric with powerful divinition magic whose whole purpose is to find and manipulate a gate. He would have found a gate somehow, regardless of the diary, and one might even argue that deciphering the diary wasted time he would not have needed had he simply had Redcloak ask The Dark One.

: "I do have divination spells that can request limited advice, but they have some restrictions. Primary of which is that our god can't provide information that he himself doesn't know. (…) [M]y magic can't just point the way."
Also, we know from SoD that

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Xykon and Redcloak spent an awful lot of time trying to locate the Gates after, khm, that little accident at Lirian's Glade. They failed.

But nobody has flipped this pancake to see the other side:

What if TE had gotten the coordinates of all the gates then trapped The Oracle in a soul gem?

The Oracle is pretty good at avoiding whatever he really wants to avoid (and that includes giving useful answers to people he doesn't think should have them) and undoing damage he can't. Guy's next to omniscient, after all.

The diary would have been really useful to an intrepid band of adventurers recruited by Serini.

All the Scribblers knew the coordinates to the other Gates. Most of them didn't carry them about in a compact-sized, portable form, mixed with information on the capabilities of the other defenders.

[danielxcutter]

Also the coordinates don't mean jack if you don't know at least one of the locations.

[Peelee]

Also the coordinates don't mean jack if you don't know at least one of the locations.

How do you figure that?

[Fyraltari]

How do you figure that?

Five set of coordinates is really little to break a code. Granted, I'm no crypto-communication expert, but just ten data points with no underlying logic doesn't sound like it'd be enough if you don't have the translation for one of them.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon had to use the coordinates for Lirian's Gate to figure out the cipher. I don't remember if the skill for breaking code is a Sorcerer class skill(I do know it's on the Wizard skill list, though), but if it is I don't think V and Haley would do as well, if they even knew there were coordinates depending on how the diary was encrypted.

[Skull the Troll]

Yes, and he got out of the box and trounced her. I fail to see how his becoming a lich is any less happenstance than her having a magic-consuming virus. They both had surprise tricks. His was better.

But all of that was still dependent on her deciding not to kill him. He got his ass handed to him. If he won later its because he no longer literally had an ass, he gave up his humanity and soul and eventually defeated his foe, but failed to achieve his objective. That's not a trounce.

[Peelee]

Five set of coordinates is really little to break a code. Granted, I'm no crypto-communication expert, but just ten data points with no underlying logic doesn't sound like it'd be enough if you don't have the translation for one of them.

And if he'd said code, I would have agreed. He said coordinates. I took that to mean they had, well, the coordinates.

But all of that was still dependent on her deciding not to kill him. He got his ass handed to him. If he won later its because he no longer literally had an ass, he gave up his humanity and soul and eventually defeated his foe, but failed to achieve his objective. That's not a trounce.

Look dude, we can go round and round all day. She got the first punch in, but she then got demolished like an MMA fighter going up against Mike Tyson. "But she only lost horribly because she did things that caused her to lose horribly" does not convince me like it convinces you.

[Metastachydium]

Five set of coordinates is really little to break a code. Granted, I'm no crypto-communication expert, but just ten data points with no underlying logic doesn't sound like it'd be enough if you don't have the translation for one of them.

Xykon had to use the coordinates for Lirian's Gate to figure out the cipher. I don't remember if the skill for breaking code is a Sorcerer class skill(I do know it's on the Wizard skill list, though), but if it is I don't think V and Haley would do as well, if they even knew there were coordinates depending on how the diary was encrypted.

If you mean Decipher Script, interestingly enough, breaking codes/ciphers is not explicitly called out as a possible use of it ("[y]ou can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language or a message written in an incomplete or archaic form").
Anyhow, I'm not sure deciphering coordinates is impossible. In order to be useful, they have to follow a specific format, and if there is such an ample context detailing the journeys of the group that determined the coordinates as that provided by the diary (mind you, we know that only specific portions of it (quite possibly only the coordinates) were written in code), it is not that difficult to ascertain what interval the specific values that form the coordinates would fall in.

[danielxcutter]

I imagine knowing the significance of the journal would be a major factor; randon schmucks finding it likely wouldn't.

Spoiler: SoD Lirian

Show

Didn't she die when Redcloak blew up the Gate by accident?

Really, "because of the plot" is pretty strong in Lirian's part; she used Poison against an obvious undead and she didn't have warding spells against fire damage on the treants(which are weak to fire) comprising the Gate.

[Skull the Troll]

I'm sorry, I forgot about "Serini bad" and that she is responsible for every gate falling.

She's more responsible for the ones she's blaming. She was the one that made the rule that Lirian was going to be there by herself. As others have noted most of the Paladins and the Order were unborn or children at the time. That said I think the "Your had 4 chances" comment is really just hyperbole. She's sort of the in comic personification of us in the forums. Utterly convinced were right and unwilling to see anyone else's side. It's my belief that's why she pisses so many of us off so badly. She personifies what we dont like about ourselves.

[Peelee]

She's more responsible for the ones she's blaming. She was the one that made the rule that Lirian was going to be there by herself.

Ah, yes, if not for that bad stupid Serini the Scribblers would have stayed together and been a nice happy family. Man, she just had to ruin everything.

[danielxcutter]

For the record, you can absolutely be frustrated with someone who doesn't act like you. Such as if you've interacted with people who very much act that way.

[Skull the Troll]

For the record, you can absolutely be frustrated with someone who doesn't act like you. Such as if you've interacted with people who very much act that way.

Thats true, of course. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth. :)